I'm the pianist for a group that performs and records period music for
silent films. I have started recording my lower-end silent film scores
in my home, since the companies that release these tend to not have
much money. The ensemble is piano, violin, cello, clarinet, and
trumpet; and the sound is basically that of a piano-backed chamber
ensemble. Fortunately our trumpeter is sensitive and can adjust to the
volume of strings -- and is used to doing it from our live gigs, which
typically have no sound reinforcement. We're also used to performing as
an ensemble, so recording track-by-track is unappealing.

I'm slowly piecing together a home studio for recording, and so far
I've been happy with the equipment I've gotten based on advice I've
found in this forum. Our latest score (THE BLUE BIRD on Kino, coming
out 9/6) was mostly "room sound" on a Rode NT4 with a little extra
violin mixed in from the violinist's AKG C1000. I run the three
channels through the pre-amps in an Onyx 1620, going out pre-EQ into a
MOTU 828mkII, into my iMac G5 running DP, which is also using the MOTU
to sync with the silent film's SMPTE codes on a videocassette. I add
some reverb and EQ in DP. The piano for now is a digital keyboard --
since it's accompaniment on most of the music, it doesn't stand out as
being artificial to the casual listener. I'd prefer a real piano, but
I've found that I can't yet record one as nicely as the Korg people did
the digital samples.

Thus far I have been monitoring on headphones and a Philips consumer
mini-stereo, occasionally burning a CD and walking it over to my better
(but far from audiophile) home stereo. I'm ready to buy actual studio
monitors, and I've been looking at the Mackie HR 624s as something that
looks decent and affordable. I haven't found any music stores in the
Denver area that have studio monitors that I can try -- mostly they're
live-gig shops limited to PA equipment. Are there some other powered
monitors -- or amplifier/monitor combos -- that I should be considering
in the sub-$1000 range? I'm also trying to decide how to extend my
microphone capabilities for reinforcing violin and cello when needed --
should I go with the Rode NT-5s for consistency, or save up for a
ribbon mic?

Thanks much for any opinions, advice, rants or tirades.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com

wrote:

Thus far I have been monitoring on headphones and a Philips consumer
mini-stereo, occasionally burning a CD and walking it over to my better
(but far from audiophile) home stereo. I'm ready to buy actual studio
monitors, and I've been looking at the Mackie HR 624s as something that
looks decent and affordable. I haven't found any music stores in the
Denver area that have studio monitors that I can try -- mostly they're
live-gig shops limited to PA equipment. Are there some other powered
monitors -- or amplifier/monitor combos -- that I should be considering
in the sub-$1000 range?

I think the HR 824 is much better than the cheaper Mackie, and worth
spending the additional money for.

I think the Tannoy stuff is worth listening to as well. SLS also makes
some nice-sounding monitors that have evry narrow dispersion, which you
might find an advantage or disadvantage.

And I think it's worth taking a trip out of state to listen to monitors
if you can.... the airline fare may turn out to be cheaper than money
spent on monitors that you don't like.

I'm also trying to decide how to extend my
microphone capabilities for reinforcing violin and cello when needed --
should I go with the Rode NT-5s for consistency, or save up for a
ribbon mic?

I don't think I'd recommend either an NT-5, or most ribbon mikes for
sound reinforcement. The Beyer M-260 might be an exception, though it
will take a good preamp.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com

So do you perform much live at all?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think the HR 824 is much better than the cheaper Mackie, and worth
spending the additional money for.

Hi, Scott! I hoped you'd respond, since I've seen your name over at
alt.movies.silent from time to time. I'll look at the 824s and the
Tannoys. I'm not planning to get golden ears or anything,and I'm not
going to make much money in this studio -- but I do want to be able to
hear what I'm doing while trying to save some money for a bit of room
treatment as well, since the cello gets boomy in there. (I've actually
considered getting the monitors one at a time to spread out the
expense, since I'm not in control over the stereo mix anyway). And I
haven't really done a full search for stores in the Rocky Mountain
area, so that's the next thing to try.

I don't think I'd recommend either an NT-5, or most ribbon mikes for
sound reinforcement. The Beyer M-260 might be an exception, though it
will take a good preamp.

Oops -- this isn't for sound reinforcement at live shows, which I
realize I didn't explain clearly. (I'm a musician, not a sound
engineer...) What I meant was that while I am mostly using "room sound"
recorded on the NT4, I'm thinking of having an additional mike closer
to the violin so that if the recording I get from the NT4 is too low on
violin in places, I can add some extra violin to the mix. With the NT5
I'd also have one to put near the cello, since that's the other
instrument that occasionally gets lost in some registers. Can I do this
without getting phase problems?

So do you perform much live at all?

We do twenty to thirty gigs a year in various places -- mostly Colorado
and Kansas -- so it's not a full-time thing; but there's more live
performance than recording. Our next tour is to Kansas at the end of
September for the Buster Keaton Celebration in Iola, and a gig at a
historic theater in Salina. We've occasionally toured as far as
California, Ohio, and New York; but my family life is too hectic for
full-time touring as a band. If you're curious about silent film music
and our recordings, check the web site... I'll get one of my
home-studio recordings there in the next day or so when I add info on
THE BLUE BIRD.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com

Hi Rodney, funny to run into you here.

If you're looking for inexpensive monitors, you might look at the
Tannoy Reveals (only about $400 last time I looked). If you buy the
passive ones (no amps included) they're very cheap and quite a good
sounding speaker. I have a pair which I bought as a second monitor
system for my studio (I also have a pair of pricey Genelecs). My wife
claimed them for her video editing studio, so I haven't had as much
opportunity to listen to them critically as I would like, but
everything we do in her editing studio makes them seem like a good
choice. Of course you'll need a good amp to go along with them.

I'm not sure if the active Reveals, with built in amplifiers, (twice as
expensive) are going to be as good as the competition at that price.

For the microphones, it's not unusual in classical recordings to have a
stereo pair as the main mics and a spot mic or two to pick up quieter
or more distant instruments. If the spot mics are relatively close,
and the room mics are fairly distant, there shouldn't be too much
phasing problems. Of course you should always listen to the
combination and move them around a bit to see. I've never used the
Rodes, so I can't comment on them. Shure SM 81's should work pretty
well for you (they have a nice low end and a fairly tight pattern).
For a little more money Josephson mics are always recommended on this
newsgroup (although I've never tried them myself). AKG 414 ULS would
be nice on the cello, as would lots of other large diaphram mics. I
would think the Rode NT2 would be a good choice for modest dollars. I
have used Beyer M 88's on double basses with good results (it's a
dynamic with a very pronounced low end and a somewhat less present high
end). There are a million possibilities (check out the Audio
Technica's - good value).

Will we see you in Telluride this year?

Ken Winokur - Alloy Orchestra (the other Silent Film Orchestra)

Hi again,

I noticed that nobody else picked up on this question, so I thought I
might comment further. A disclaimer - Rodney, you know that I'm not as
expert on this stuff as some of the guys on this newsgroup. They test
out everything and have a better perspective on the entire market.

I am surprised to see that you are recording mono with one room mic
(although your recordings have sounded really good so far). I'm
looking forward to seeing and hearing The Bluebird. Given the number
of films you are getting paid to score, I think it's wise to invest a
bit in the recording gear.

I suggest that you start using an excellent stereo pair for the
ensemble. I think you'll be surprised to hear how much more distinct
the various instruments will sound when you can place them in a stereo
field. This might make both your cello and violin stand out without
extra mics. If this isn't enough, then I suggest moving the cello and
violin a bit closer to the mics. Putting the cello in the center might
make the low end more present. Check to make sure that you have a good
coverage of the instruments. Using 2 mics can leave a hole in the
center, or the opposite. Move the mics around until you find the best
placement.

What mics? Well, for small money, you could probably buy another NT4.
Does it have the balance you want - enough bass, not too strident a
high end? I would think the issue for you would be to make sure that
the strings are warm and sweet (not overly bright and harsh).

The favorite mics for this job are probably Schoeps or B & K (but very
expensive). I really would try to find the Josephson Series 4 (I
think) to try - they have been so highly recommended here and would
cost about $1000 a pair. Then, you could use your NT4 as a spot mic if
you needed it. I've recorded a string quartet a number of times
(probably not too far off from what you're doing) with a pair of AKG
414 TLS. They were the favorite mics for recording classical music for
a while for WGBH radio (Boston PBS). They have a very large and nice
low end. But again, they're kind of expensive. Be careful about 414's
.. There have been at least 5 or 6 different models and they are all
very different.

Other choices: Audio Technica 4051a (very neutral sounding, but
perhaps not enough bass for you), or the trusty Shure SM81, or
Earthworks.

As to ribbons - as you know you're talking a bit more money. These
probably wouldn't be good for doing the whole ensemble, but would work
as spot mics. I've used the Coles and it's really great - especially
if you're having trouble getting the harshness out of the recording.
But they're really colored (very midrangey). They might not have the
warmth needed for cello. they do sit very nicely in the mix, and make
it easy to boost an instrument without overpowering the others.
Everybody likes the Royers, but I haven't used them much. I bought a
Beyer M 160 once and returned it. Again, it was very colored and
didn't suit my needs.

Monitors. I just noticed that Tannoy has changed their Reveals since I
bought mine. Mine are just called Reveals. The new ones are the 5A,
the 6 or whatever. Assuming that they haven't screwed up these
excellent speakers, you can't go very far wrong with them. In fact,
almost any of the Tannoys work quite well. I would have liked to hear
a bit more of the very low bass out of my Reveals (for doing bass drums
etc.) but I think for you application that wouldn't be a big problem.
They are smooth and don't seem to have any weird peaks. I have also
heard good things about the Event TR8XL. There was a major review of
monitors under $800 in one of the magazines last year (Electronic
Musician?) and they loved these. They apparently have a surprising low
end and over all nice sound.

Some of the mail order dealers are happy to take returns. Swee****er
actually advised me once to take 3 or 4 mics and send back the ones I
didn't want. Unfortunately they don't carry Josephson but they have
most of the other things.

Best,
Ken

wrote:
Hi Rodney, funny to run into you here.

Hey, it's a small world. (Ken is the leader of the Alloy Orchestra,
another large fish in the tiny silent film scoring pond, though with a
very different approach from ours.)

Thanks for the extensive advice -- I'll save it for when I'm ready to
get serious about more mikes. Both you and Scott recommended that I
look at Tannoy Reveals -- what model are you looking at? Do you think
the 5As are adequate or should I be looking at the pricier ones? (I
think I know the answer.) Again, there ain't a lot of money in this,
but I do need to know when the cello sound misbehaves in the room in
order to fix it, so I'll need accurate sound in the bass. I got my
Swee****er catalog yesterday, and there's quite a range of what one can
spend, but I'm trying to keep it as much under $1000 as I can. And I
did find some stores in Denver that will let me listen to some
reference monitors, though possibly not a great selection and not in
the ideal environment. (Then again, I'm not really recording in an
ideal environment, I suppose! The room has a about eight windows...
fortunately it's a quiet neighborhood.)

Since you don't know Rode mics, I lead you astray -- I'm recording with
one Rode NT4, but that's a stereo mic permanently mounted in an x-y
configuration. I like the sound, and it's extremely convenient for
recording live shows since there's only one mike to set up. Most of the
soundtracks you've heard of ours were recorded in a professional studio
in Boulder, albeit a lowish-priced non-DAW one; so the home studio
thing is new. I'm nervous about the sound, the room, reverb, eq, etc.;
but I really like the editing capabilities of the DAW. Rough violin
passage? Splice it in from another take! And recording the room in
stereo means never having to worry about tweaking the mix -- because
you can't!

I think you'll like THE BLUE BIRD -- it's a surreal film, and our score
uses some unusual themes by some of the composers you liked on DESTINY.
If you want to hear how my home studio is working, and hear the Rode
NT4 in action, I've put a couple of mp3 files up here. Constructive
criticism highly welcome:

http://www.mont-alto.com/recordings/....html#BlueBird

Again, the instruments are all played simultaneously in the room,
recorded with the Rode NT4 except the Korg digital piano, which is
present fairly quietly in the room but also recorded as MIDI notes, and
later brought in on separate tracks. I also am using a touch of signal
from a spot mike on the cello.

We won't be at Telluride this year - I tried to sell Bill on BEGGARS OF
LIFE, but he's worried about the quality of surviving prints. Great
film, though; and you can't go wrong with Louise Brooks. I'm hoping to
be back next year, of course.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com

Hi Rodney, I'm glad to see we're on the same page, I didn't realize you
were using the stereo Rode mic. I think I have a better idea what
you're looking for now.

I haven't heard any of the current Tannoy line.

My Tannoy Reveals are red faced, and have a 6" driver (and small dome
tweeter). They are not amplified. They would seem to be the similar
(from looking at the Swee****er Catalogue) to the Reveal Control 6 .
But I don't know what might have changed. At $199 each they are
pretty cheap. But that's only if you have an amp to use already.

My wife has used a variety of low power conventional stereo amps (15 -
100 watts) with our Reveals. That's not really good enough for
serious monitoring, but it's a good short term solution. Frankly, with
a good 100 watt amp, they are plenty loud , and don't seem to be
clipping noticably. I used to have them hooked up to a really nice
Ashley Mos-fet 250 watt per side amp, and they had more clarity and
punch - but it didn't change the overall sound hugely..

Send your cello player to Boston. I'll make a cd of a bunch of
different mics for you.

Ken

We're going to Telluride (after 9 months of wrangling over a film) with
Chang - A Story of the Wilderness. Directed by Cooper and Schoedsack
(directors of King Kong). Wonder ful wildlife photography, but
unfortunately they kill all the (now endangered) species - Leopards and
Tigers. They capture all the elephants and enslave them. 1926
(nominated for an Academy Award - in the catagory which was ultimately
won by Sunrise.)

wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think the HR 824 is much better than the cheaper Mackie, and worth
spending the additional money for.

Hi, Scott! I hoped you'd respond, since I've seen your name over at
alt.movies.silent from time to time. I'll look at the 824s and the
Tannoys. I'm not planning to get golden ears or anything,and I'm not
going to make much money in this studio -- but I do want to be able to
hear what I'm doing while trying to save some money for a bit of room
treatment as well, since the cello gets boomy in there. (I've actually
considered getting the monitors one at a time to spread out the
expense, since I'm not in control over the stereo mix anyway). And I
haven't really done a full search for stores in the Rocky Mountain
area, so that's the next thing to try.

I'd say do some room sweeps and see what is actually happening in the
room before you buy monitors.

And if you _aren'_ going to be making big money, get monitors that you
enjoy listening to, so you can use them for listening for pleasure as
well.

I don't think I'd recommend either an NT-5, or most ribbon mikes for
sound reinforcement. The Beyer M-260 might be an exception, though it
will take a good preamp.

Oops -- this isn't for sound reinforcement at live shows, which I
realize I didn't explain clearly. (I'm a musician, not a sound
engineer...) What I meant was that while I am mostly using "room sound"
recorded on the NT4, I'm thinking of having an additional mike closer
to the violin so that if the recording I get from the NT4 is too low on
violin in places, I can add some extra violin to the mix. With the NT5
I'd also have one to put near the cello, since that's the other
instrument that occasionally gets lost in some registers. Can I do this
without getting phase problems?

Okay, you mean spot miking. Yes, you can spot individual instruments.
If you have good preamps, the Beyer M260 might be a good first choice for
spotting string instruments. The Sennheiser 441 is also a surprisingly
good choice for classical spots; it looks expensive but they actually sell
used for reasonable prices. In the cheap range, look at the EV N/D 468.

So do you perform much live at all?

We do twenty to thirty gigs a year in various places -- mostly Colorado
and Kansas -- so it's not a full-time thing; but there's more live
performance than recording. Our next tour is to Kansas at the end of
September for the Buster Keaton Celebration in Iola, and a gig at a
historic theater in Salina. We've occasionally toured as far as
California, Ohio, and New York; but my family life is too hectic for
full-time touring as a band. If you're curious about silent film music
and our recordings, check the web site... I'll get one of my
home-studio recordings there in the next day or so when I add info on
THE BLUE BIRD.

I am running Aelita, Queen of Mars at the Arisia science fiction convention
in January in Boston, and just managed to shanghai Marvin Marks into
playing piano. But it appears I am going to be stuck in Denver for a
few weeks this fall and wouldn't mind seeing a movie.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 8/31/05 10:50 AM, in article , "Scott
Dorsey" wrote:

So do you perform much live at all?

We do twenty to thirty gigs a year in various places -- mostly Colorado
and Kansas -- so it's not a full-time thing; but there's more live
performance than recording. Our next tour is to Kansas at the end of
September for the Buster Keaton Celebration in Iola, and a gig at a
historic theater in Salina. We've occasionally toured as far as
California, Ohio, and New York; but my family life is too hectic for
full-time touring as a band. If you're curious about silent film music
and our recordings, check the web site... I'll get one of my
home-studio recordings there in the next day or so when I add info on
THE BLUE BIRD.

I am running Aelita, Queen of Mars at the Arisia science fiction convention
in January in Boston, and just managed to shanghai Marvin Marks into
playing piano. But it appears I am going to be stuck in Denver for a
few weeks this fall and wouldn't mind seeing a movie.
--scott

Dang... I'm burnt out on reality
I miss all the cool stuff like this that originally attracted me to fandom
30 years ago...

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 8/31/05 10:50 AM, in article , "Scott

I am running Aelita, Queen of Mars at the Arisia science fiction convention
in January in Boston, and just managed to shanghai Marvin Marks into
playing piano. But it appears I am going to be stuck in Denver for a
few weeks this fall and wouldn't mind seeing a movie.

Dang... I'm burnt out on reality
I miss all the cool stuff like this that originally attracted me to fandom
30 years ago...

So come to Arisia. Because you wouldn't give me your DeVry machines,
we are running Aelita (and Tron, and Hitchhiker's Guide and a bunch of
other films) on Alan Gordon projectors that we are renting for outrageous
cost from Cardinal (as we have done for seven years now). We are now
accumulating a bunch of weird aperture plates for the thing too... we keep
running things with nonstandard apertures and having to cut improvised plates
out of gutter flashing on the fly.

Oh, yeah, and we are being promised an IB-Tech print of Tron from a guy
with a basement full of 35mm Technicolor prints.

I hope to have decent surround this year too... last year we kept finding
things wrong with the Dolby CP-50 and wound up running in bypass mode
half the time. Not an issue for the silents, of coourse. My project for
October is to change every damn tantalum cap in that thing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 8/31/05 11:20 AM, in article , "Scott
Dorsey" wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 8/31/05 10:50 AM, in article , "Scott

I am running Aelita, Queen of Mars at the Arisia science fiction convention
in January in Boston, and just managed to shanghai Marvin Marks into
playing piano. But it appears I am going to be stuck in Denver for a
few weeks this fall and wouldn't mind seeing a movie.

Dang... I'm burnt out on reality
I miss all the cool stuff like this that originally attracted me to fandom
30 years ago...

So come to Arisia. Because you wouldn't give me your DeVry machines,

'wouldn;t'...?
You are So mean...
I feel So small...


we are running Aelita (and Tron, and Hitchhiker's Guide and a bunch of
other films) on Alan Gordon projectors that we are renting for outrageous
cost from Cardinal (as we have done for seven years now). We are now
accumulating a bunch of weird aperture plates for the thing too... we keep
running things with nonstandard apertures and having to cut improvised plates
out of gutter flashing on the fly.

Oh, yeah, and we are being promised an IB-Tech print of Tron from a guy
with a basement full of 35mm Technicolor prints.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope to have decent surround this year too... last year we kept finding
things wrong with the Dolby CP-50 and wound up running in bypass mode
half the time.

It'll spit stereo in that mode...?
Hell it takes 5 min to derive a surround...

Not an issue for the silents, of coourse. My project for
October is to change every damn tantalum cap in that thing.
--scott

SSJVCmag wrote:

I hope to have decent surround this year too... last year we kept finding
things wrong with the Dolby CP-50 and wound up running in bypass mode
half the time.

It'll spit stereo in that mode...?
Hell it takes 5 min to derive a surround...

Right and left only, no derived center and no surround. And unfortunately
no Dolby A decoding either. This year I promise the decoder will work
right.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 8/31/05 12:07 PM, in article , "Scott
Dorsey" wrote:

SSJVCmag wrote:

I hope to have decent surround this year too... last year we kept finding
things wrong with the Dolby CP-50 and wound up running in bypass mode
half the time.

It'll spit stereo in that mode...?
Hell it takes 5 min to derive a surround...

Right and left only, no derived center and no surround. And unfortunately
no Dolby A decoding either. This year I promise the decoder will work
right.

As I said... 5 min and you have a surround...
Maybe I should come and help...
I just changed woofs in my raod Klipsches...

Scott Dorsey wrote:

And if you _aren'_ going to be making big money, get monitors that you
enjoy listening to, so you can use them for listening for pleasure as
well.

I tried the Mackie's -- both 624s and 824s -- at a Guitar Center, with
a Yoyo Ma CD. I liked them better than the Events that they had set up.
I could hear a difference between the two models, but I have to decide
for myself whether it's a $460 difference... They had no Tannoys, but
I'm warming to this project and I'll call around to see who might have
them locally. The sales guy tried to sell me on a Dynaudio that they're
currently out of, and claimed that the 5-inch model sounds as good as
the 8-inch Mackie. Hmmm... in the meantime a friend loaned me some
cheap Fostexes that he isn't using, so maybe I can become a critical
listener before buying.

I am running Aelita, Queen of Mars at the Arisia science fiction convention
in January in Boston, and just managed to shanghai Marvin Marks into
playing piano. But it appears I am going to be stuck in Denver for a
few weeks this fall and wouldn't mind seeing a movie.

Aelita is a hoot. I especially like the martian servant girl with the
cantilevered harem pants. I once played that with an accordion (this
has got to be one of the few films in history where someone plays an
accordion on Mars to instigate a rebellion of the proletariat).

If you're in Denver on September 30 you can catch our MARK OF ZORRO in
a tiny community hall in Louisville, with 16mm film, but a nice lively
score and probably a nice lively audience. If you're around on October
28 you can see us do DR. JEKYLL & MR. HYDE at a lovely restored 1920
theater in Loveland, but unfortunately it'll be DVD projection
(projector speed issues) and a synthetic piano.

I have yet to find a local auditorium that is so fanatic about us that
they'll do variable speed 35mm projection to vintage prints -- we had a
short series at the Paramount several years back, but attendance was
disappointing. And if you ever need a five-piece traditional silent
film orchestra in Boston, drop me a line! I'm trying to piece together
an East-coast tour sometime next Spring.

Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com

On 8/31/05 7:33 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

I have yet to find a local auditorium that is so fanatic about us that
they'll do variable speed 35mm projection to vintage prints -- we had a
short series at the Paramount several years back, but attendance was
disappointing. And if you ever need a five-piece traditional silent
film orchestra in Boston, drop me a line! I'm trying to piece together
an East-coast tour sometime next Spring.

Have you contacted (and sent a press pack and demo disc) to AFI in DC?
It'd be a dream as they -DO- run correct speed shows......