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Unplanned Obsolescence
If you've been following my Firewire woes, this evening, I got The Final Answer in a phone call (no less!) from a Dell tech support supervisor. The setup: Dell Inspiron 2650 computer (no Firewire port, USB 1.1 only) PCMCIA slot with PCMCIA Firewire adapter Disk drive in a Firewire enclosure. I've been using the computer with the PCMCIA Firewire adapter to record stereo from a Mackie Onyx mixer with pretty good success. I wanted to experiment with the rig for live multitrack recording, and for that I needed more disk space than the internal drive, and I figured that a faster drive would be desirable. It seemed like Firewire would be a good approach. After trying four or five different Firewire cases and a couple of different PCMCIA adapters and not being able to access the drive, I started writing to the tech supports - Mad Dog (the current drive case), Adaptec (the current PCMCIA Firewire adapter) and Dell. I got the usual runaround, essentially "try something else." Obviously the adapter works since it works with the Onyx audio interface and also with my Jukebox 3. The drive works. I took it to a different computer (thanks to my friendly used computer store) with a real Firewire port and it works there. The drive case also has a USB port, and that works when connected to my computer. Dell's final answer was that the motherboard design is "old" and isn't intended to support Firewire through the PCMCIA slot. The fact that something works, I guess, is just incidental. Interestingly, he said that if my computer was under service contract, they could replace the motherboard but that it wouldn't be worth paying for it as a repair. I didn't expect the warranty to cover failure due to obsolescence, but I guess it might be a good thing to consider if I ever buy another Dell computer. Anyway, just for kicks, this evening I connected the drive to the computer through the USB1.1 port, cranked up the rig, and let it run for an hour recording four stereo tracks of tone at 16-bit, 44.1 kHz. I was surprised that it didn't choke completely (I didn't bother to try to calculate the required throughput - Arny???? You're good at that stuff) and I didn't see any obvious glitches with an eyeball on the waveforms. I'm running them, a pair at a time, through Wave Repair now to let it count glitches. It's 80% though the first file with 8 "clicks" counted. But they may not be significant. Anyway, while I'm bummed that I can't use Firewire to connect the disk drive, it looks like at least for a modest project, USB1.1 might work OK. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123722444k@trad... Dell's final answer was that the motherboard design is "old" and isn't intended to support Firewire through the PCMCIA slot. How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? Anyway, while I'm bummed that I can't use Firewire to connect the disk drive, it looks like at least for a modest project, USB1.1 might work OK. I think USB 1 has an unwritten '2 tracks at a time' rule. jb |
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"reddred" wrote in message ... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123722444k@trad... Dell's final answer was that the motherboard design is "old" and isn't intended to support Firewire through the PCMCIA slot. How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? Anyway, while I'm bummed that I can't use Firewire to connect the disk drive, it looks like at least for a modest project, USB1.1 might work OK. I think USB 1 has an unwritten '2 tracks at a time' rule. jb too bad you can't use usb 2 wich is faster than fwire |
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I am surprized you would say 16 clicks per track times 4 is OK for any
project. I'm looking for a portable rig that can handle at least 10 inputs at 24 bits w/o any glitches. That may be too much to ask but I'm asking anyway. |
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"Carl Valle" wrote:
too bad you can't use usb 2 wich is faster than fwire Not for audio. USB2 has a higher peak rate, but Firewire has better sustained rate. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#9
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How is the HDR24/96 for latency?
(but it's limited to 44.1/48 kHz sample rate, without using external A/D converters and cutting the track count in half). Yet it's Model # is "24/96", which at least stongly implies 96kHz sample rate. Have you heard of any Notebooks PC or Mac that can do what the Mackie does? Dkid |
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How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? please dont be too hard on me for asking a dumb question, but is IEEE 1394 the technical name for firewire? i see this connection on my dell inspiron 5150. i just wanna hit myself upside the head for not thinking about that earlier. jake |
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please dont be too hard on me for asking a dumb question, but is IEEE 1394 the technical name for firewire? i see this connection on my dell inspiron 5150. i just wanna hit myself upside the head for not thinking about that earlier. jake Take it easy on that noggin' but yeah 1394 is firewire |
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123764045k@trad... In article writes: How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? Apparently it's not as old as I thought. Purcahsed in November 2002. Well, it should be compliant with the most recent PCMCIA spec, and Dell is trying to sell you a board in an effort to get you to go away. I suspect software might be the culprit. Have you tried to find more recent drivers for it than Dell's? I'm sure it's third party. Might be worth a shot, but I'd back up my system partition first. jb |
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"Jake Saliba" wrote in message oups.com... How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? please dont be too hard on me for asking a dumb question, but is IEEE 1394 the technical name for firewire? i see this connection on my dell inspiron 5150. i just wanna hit myself upside the head for not thinking about that earlier. Aye, that it is. jb |
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You could always replace the existing internal drive with a bigger and
faster model (check out the Hitachi Travelstar). Only risk is that some older bios's have some peculiar restrictions on drive sizes, which you might want to look into. --Peter Mike Rivers wrote: In article writes: too bad you can't use usb 2 wich is faster than fwire If I did that with this computer, it would have to be through the PCMCIA slot, which, for all I know, may have the same problem as Firewire when talking to a disk drive. The computer has only one PCMCIA slot, so if I use that with the Firewire adapter to talk to the Onyx card, I don't have a slot for a USB2 adapter for the disk drive (if it even works). Obviously the answer, if I really want to pursue this, is to buy a new computer. At this point, however, I can't convince myself that the investment is worth it. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123723870k@trad... In article znr1123722444k@trad (that's me!) writes: If you've been following my Firewire woes, this evening, I got The Final Answer in a phone call (no less!) from a Dell tech support supervisor. While the chat on the phone with the supervisor guy was quite professional, the follow-up response by e-mail was rather amusing: Mr. Rivers, as per your telephonic conversation Did you call a guy or talk to him about telephones? I dig big words. with my Supervisor, the PCMCIA card slot is not compatible with the Firewire card. It should be. Maybe they made it right before the spec came out? As a result of the same you will not be able to install the Firewire adapter card in the system. However you can connect the Firewire Adapter to the USB port of your system. This will surely address your concerns. I hear they pay 299 rupees an hour. Outsourceing is value for money, that's what they say. jb |
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Carl Valle wrote:
"reddred" wrote in message ... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123722444k@trad... Dell's final answer was that the motherboard design is "old" and isn't intended to support Firewire through the PCMCIA slot. How old is the PC? PCMCIA supports IEEE 1394 only in the newest revision, which seems like it was a few years ago. Is your laptop from the 90's? Anyway, while I'm bummed that I can't use Firewire to connect the disk drive, it looks like at least for a modest project, USB1.1 might work OK. I think USB 1 has an unwritten '2 tracks at a time' rule. jb too bad you can't use usb 2 wich is faster than fwire How about a USB 2.0 PCMCIA adapter? --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 10:48:50 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#19
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article znr1123722444k@trad (that's me!) writes: If you've been following my Firewire woes, this evening, I got The Final Answer in a phone call (no less!) from a Dell tech support supervisor. While the chat on the phone with the supervisor guy was quite professional, the follow-up response by e-mail was rather amusing: Mr. Rivers, as per your telephonic conversation with my Supervisor, the PCMCIA card slot is not compatible with the Firewire card. As a result of the same you will not be able to install the Firewire adapter card in the system. However you can connect the Firewire Adapter to the USB port of your system. This will surely address your concerns. Got it. So I guess the Firewire card isn't working with the Mackie Onyx after all. Now all I need is a Firewire-USB1.1 adapter and I'll be all set. g "Telephonic conversation"?? Neat --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 10:49:33 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
Anyway, just for kicks, this evening I connected the drive to the computer through the USB1.1 port, cranked up the rig, and let it run for an hour recording four stereo tracks of tone at 16-bit, 44.1 kHz. I was surprised that it didn't choke completely (I didn't bother to try to calculate the required throughput - Arny???? You're good at that stuff) and I didn't see any obvious glitches with an eyeball on the waveforms. I'm running them, a pair at a time, through Wave Repair now to let it count glitches. It's 80% though the first file with 8 "clicks" counted. But they may not be significant. 16 bits times 44,100 samples per second gives you 705.6kbits per channel per second (not accounting for any kind of sample overhead or anything). Since USB 1.1 is rated at 12Mbit/s throughput, that gives you up to 17 channels' worth of audio THEORETICALLY. Not that you'll get anywhere near that at a sustained level in normal use, but four channels (at about 2.8Mbit) shouldn't be a problem. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 10:55:45 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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dkid wrote:
I'm looking for a portable rig that can handle at least 10 inputs at 24 bits w/o any glitches. That may be too much to ask but I'm asking anyway. RME Fireface 800 will do that http://rme-audio.com/english/firewire/ff800.htm |
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Hi Mike,
If you decide to get a new computer, and you don't need battery operation, you might consider getting a desktop computer instead of a laptop. You can put together a computer in a small desktop case pretty cheaply, then add an LCD monitor. It will cost less than a laptop, have more functionality and expandability, and only be slightly less portable. Just a thought. Dean |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes: is IEEE 1394 the technical name for firewire? i see this connection on my dell inspiron 5150. Yes, that's the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) standard number that defines the interface. Firewire is, I believe, and Apple or Sony (or joint) name. Toshiba calls it something else. "iLink" --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 6:07:19 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article 4jMKe.194366$s54.118360@pd7tw2no writes: 16 bits times 44,100 samples per second gives you 705.6kbits per channel per second (not accounting for any kind of sample overhead or anything). Since USB 1.1 is rated at 12Mbit/s throughput, that gives you up to 17 channels' worth of audio THEORETICALLY. Not that you'll get anywhere near that at a sustained level in normal use, but four channels (at about 2.8Mbit) shouldn't be a problem. I figured on about 1/2 to 1/3 in practice. In fact, with 8 tracks (4 stereo) I got a few clicks per hour. When I tested with 6 tracks, I got no clicks. Twice. So perhaps 6 tracks is a safe limit. I can live with that. Other factors to consider are whether the software is capturing to a "local" temp drive first, or to memory, and what kind of buffering there is at all stages - in the initial capture, in writing to the temp space, in reading from temp, and writing to the USB port... basically the efficiency of the whole chain from the analog input to the read/write heads in the outboard drive. Weakest link, and all that --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 6:10:32 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes: If you decide to get a new computer, and you don't need battery operation, you might consider getting a desktop computer instead of a laptop. You can put together a computer in a small desktop case pretty cheaply, then add an LCD monitor. It will cost less than a laptop, have more functionality and expandability, and only be slightly less portable. I need a real portable computer to do real portable computer work, too. I suppose that I could make up something like what you suggest, but at least for some trips, I'd end up taking the laptop, too. Understand that this isn't a "must have" for me. I'm just trying to see what I can do with what I have laying around, or can augment with a small investment. Here's something to check out: http://www.shuttle.com/ (or direct to http://sys.us.shuttle.com/ for complete systems) These are small cube-style cased PCs that combined with an LCD monitor, provide a very portable solution. We use them to build video-surveillance DVRs and they work great. For around CDN$300 we can get a basic case/mainboard/cooler package that includes two onboard EIDE or SATA channels, AC97 5.1 audio with optical I/O, video, LAN, etc., plus multiple firewire and USB 2.0 ports, front-panel USB and audio ports... add a CPU and drives and away you go. The ones we use have a single floppy bay, a single HDD bay, and a single CD-ROM bay, one AGP and one PCI slot, but that's already more than most laptops provide, and they are available with more bays and slots. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0532-3, 08/10/2005 Tested on: 8/11/2005 6:19:05 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#33
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"Carl Valle" wrote in message news:e7AKe.1488 too bad you can't use usb 2 wich is faster than fwire Faster bit raw bit rate, but not faster in real use. Slower. geoff |
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1123798483k@trad... In article writes: Adaptec doesn't have a driver for the PCMCIA card. I have the latest BIOS update from Dell. I've looked up the date for IEEE 1394 implementation in the PCMCIA spec, and it looks like you might have come a hair's breadth from support: the spec came out in April 2001. jb |
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#37
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is IEEE 1394 the technical name for firewire? i see this
connection on my dell inspiron 5150. Yes, that's the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) standard number that defines the interface. Firewire is, I believe, and Apple or Sony (or joint) name. Toshiba calls it something else. Apple developed the standard with support from Sony and some others. They attempted to get $1 per port royalties from Sony and everyone else when Sony started putting iLink (Sony's trademarked name) ports on their camcorders, but Sony told Apple to go pound sand. Good thing, because it would likely be a proprietary interface otherwise. (Jobs is sometimes a big idiot) -John O |
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Is there something in the current 1394 part of the PCMCIA spec that addresses data transfer to disks that may not have been included in an earlier version? Some PC Card slots (PCMCIA is old terminology :-)) were not 'cardbus' compatible, which IIRC was a wide and fast transfer through the PCI subsystem, or even DMA. The older cards were much slower. It could be that certain Dell notebooks didn't have cardbus slots, meaning you couldn't get anything near 1394-possible transfer speeds. -John O |
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Mike Rivers wrote:
If you've been following my Firewire woes, this evening, I got The Final Answer in a phone call (no less!) from a Dell tech support supervisor. *snip* After trying four or five different Firewire cases and a couple of different PCMCIA adapters and not being able to access the drive, I started writing to the tech supports - Mad Dog (the current drive case), Adaptec (the current PCMCIA Firewire adapter) and Dell. I got the usual runaround, essentially "try something else." *mega-snip* Hey Mike, One thing that i've come across consistently is that the chipset of the case's enclosure is vital to proper performance of drives, especially firewire drives for PC's it seems. The fastest chipset that i know of is the Oxford 911 chipset. In the past it provided the fastest FW throughput and i believe it still does. Look for a case that has this chipset. It is essentially the translator of FireWire to IDE. Have you tried a different case? I would certainly try that before you get a new computer/motherboard. Bytecc makes a great one, the "ME-740F". It's listed for about 50 bucks in Toronto. Have you tried a different PCMCIA card? Also with firewire cards, look for Texas Instruments or Lucent chipsets onboard. Generally highers quality. Roach |
#40
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