"QH" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I have a Windows XP service pack 2 PC of a good spec, with a Terratec
DMX 6Fire 24/96 semi professional soundcard, that is running Pro Tools
LE 6.9. I am trying to setup a Midi studio setup with a Technics KN2600
keyboard as the Midi input
QH

What I found after hours of fiddling about is that Terratec Cards
are *not* in the Windows XP compatibility list, and that I couldn't
get Windows MIDI interface to work, or a driver that worked properly.

Get a Creative Soundblaster Audigy, and all will work like a dream !

.......Zed

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:23:15 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

What I found after hours of fiddling about is that Terratec Cards
are *not* in the Windows XP compatibility list, and that I couldn't
get Windows MIDI interface to work, or a driver that worked properly.

What "compatibility list"? If you mean the Windows Catalog, NOTHING
is in it :-) I'm sorry you were unsuccessful. But Terratec cards
have XP drivers which work for many people.

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:23:15 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

What I found after hours of fiddling about is that these Terratec Cards
are *not* in the Windows XP compatibility list, and that I couldn't
get Windows MIDI interface to work, or a driver that worked properly.

What "compatibility list"? If you mean the Windows Catalog, NOTHING
is in it :-)

Duh !
http://testedproducts.windowsmarketp...?text=terratec

I'm sorry you were unsuccessful. But Terratec cards
have XP drivers which work for many people.

*some* Terratec cards work for *many* people ?
*some* indeed do have XP drivers,
*some* even are approved by Microsoft, but........
The corollory to that is that others don't work for some, yes ?
In fact after much long correspondance about this issue
with Microsoft and Terratec, the explaination given is that
Terratec will not pay to have thier new firewire equipment
approved by Microsoft, and hence *don't* get it onto the list.

Not only that, but the equipment is not then included
in the hardware list of DirectX installation, and hence
some software that uses DirectX will just not work
with these cards in a Windows O/S situation.

This is especially true for those "semi-professional"
firewire cards. The firewire is not really 100% hardware
it seems, and some of the stuff runs in software on your PC
instead of Native on the card. This consumes much
resources and slow down your machine, and also can cause
conflict with some chipsets on the motherboard.

If ye doubt this then check out the resale price of
those cards on e-bay or similar and see that the
price has fell through the floor.

My original advice still stands, go with the flow
and understand that Creative Labs have an intimate
tie-in with Microsoft, and so will always get the better
software information from them first, when making
hardware and drivers.

..........Zed

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:14:52 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

My original advice still stands, go with the flow
and understand that Creative Labs have an intimate
tie-in with Microsoft, and so will always get the better
software information from them first, when making
hardware and drivers.

Don't worry too much about Microsoft "approval". Creative make very
good mass-market soundcards aimed at domestic users. But anyone who
wants to make multi-track audio recordings, stay in synch and not be
restricted to a 48KHz sample rate needs to look elsewhere. This is a
more specialist market, where Microsoft approval or driver signing is
often considered unimportant.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:14:52 -0400, Zed wrote
(in article ):

In fact after much long correspondance about this issue with Microsoft and
Terratec, the explaination given is that Terratec will not pay to have thier
new firewire equipment approved by Microsoft, and hence *don't* get it onto
the list.

Fascinating. So it's a follow the money thing. Who knew?

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:14:52 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

My original advice still stands, go with the flow
and understand that Creative Labs have an intimate
tie-in with Microsoft, and so will always get the better
software information from them first, when making
hardware and drivers.


Don't worry too much about Microsoft "approval".

But, as I said if you aren't in the DirectX list then programs
which use DirectX won't work with your soundcard.

Creative make very
good mass-market soundcards aimed at domestic users. But anyone who
wants to make multi-track audio recordings, stay in synch and not be
restricted to a 48KHz sample rate needs to look elsewhere.

This is plainly untrue
Creative Audigy ZS Pro
has sample rates of up to 96kHz

This is a
more specialist market,

More specialised than what ?

where Microsoft approval or driver signing is
often considered unimportant.


Considered unimportant by who ?
Microsoft driver approval is *very* important
if you intend to use DirectX enabled software.

............Zed

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:24:06 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

Creative make very
good mass-market soundcards aimed at domestic users. But anyone who
wants to make multi-track audio recordings, stay in synch and not be
restricted to a 48KHz sample rate needs to look elsewhere.

This is plainly untrue
Creative Audigy ZS Pro
has sample rates of up to 96kHz

Read my CubaseFAQ, the section about Creative soundcards. The issue
isn't confined to Cubase.


CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:24:06 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

Creative make very
good mass-market soundcards aimed at domestic users. But anyone who
wants to make multi-track audio recordings, stay in synch and not be
restricted to a 48KHz sample rate needs to look elsewhere.

This is plainly untrue
Creative Audigy ZS Pro
has sample rates of up to 96kHz

Read my CubaseFAQ, the section about Creative soundcards. The issue
isn't confined to Cubase.



I see what you say, I thought that you were complaining that the sample
rate wasn't high enough. Surely this problem is only one for ASIO
recording ? I heard that there is a version of Cubase made to work at
48kHz sample rate though, isn't that the case ?

If you record at 16 bit rate instead of 24 bit, isn't it the case that
Sony Phillips interface recording is possible at 44.1 kHz without
loss of sync though.

There are some much newer ( and more expensive )
cards though from Creative, in thier "professional" range
which are worth looking at, with all new chipsets.

I never found a problem myself when using Propellerhead
Reason, and am able to select 44.1kHz sample rate.
Wavs recorded at 44.1 kHz sample rate are either
played back as a loop after being converted to Rex2
files with "Recycle", or can be inserted into Redrum
as a drum instrument sample. Redrum can handle
8 or more samples at a time ( simultaneously )
without losing sync with the MIDI tracks.

I prefer Reason anyway, with it's actual samples
and presets for the various built-in software synths
rather than those olde sound fonts ideas. If you
buy the "reason" you buy also the right to use
all those samples in your own work.

I end up just recording my olde synths as
samples, and then create a Refill of my own
to work in the NN-XT synth, then just use
my olde synth as a keyboard to program the
MIDI track for that synth. I can play existing tracks
and record ( and hear ) the MIDI for that synth
without tracks going out of sync.

Ten million other "Refills" are available from
myriads of places with samples for all of the
synths and loop players

Oh well ;-)

Ye pays yer money and ye takes yer choice.

Still and on, though there may be troubles with
Creative cards and certain software setups IMHO
the problems are much worse with Terratec's
"skeleton-ware". ( did you look inside one
of those so called firewire breakout boxes )

I'd rather have seamless DirectX capability, than
use Cubase, if that were the choice. That is my
preferance. Yours is obviously different, since
you are possibly hidebound into using some olde
hardware that costa plenty, and you are maybe
reluctant to bin it, or adapt it and move to a
higher plane of existance.

Yes I too, still have my Amiga, Commodore,
and even the olde "Speccy 128k", and 8086 3MHz,
but these rarely leave the cupboard anymore.

By the time I typed all this out, the stuff that
I bought last week will already be out of date !!!!

Yeeaargh ;-))

...................Zed

"Zed" wrote:

There are some much newer ( and more expensive )
cards though from Creative, in thier "professional" range
which are worth looking at, with all new chipsets.

We live in very, very, VERY different worlds, you and I. "Professional"
products from Creative?



you are possibly hidebound into using some olde
hardware that costa plenty, and you are maybe
reluctant to bin it, or adapt it and move to a
higher plane of existance.

Is it National Irony Week again already?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

In article IO_He.181345$tt5.131549@edtnps90, says...
"Zed" wrote:


Lorin, I think the reference was for the E-MU line of sound cards such as
the E-MU 1820M (http://tinyurl.com/8brpr).

http://www.creative.com/products/wel...p?category=237

David

There are some much newer ( and more expensive )
cards though from Creative, in thier "professional" range
which are worth looking at, with all new chipsets.

We live in very, very, VERY different worlds, you and I. "Professional"
products from Creative?


--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 32 PRO - Encourager Software
Email -
Profile Exchanges - Home Theater, Search Engines, Newsgroup and Email
http://www.encouragersoftware.com/

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:55:12 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

This is plainly untrue
Creative Audigy ZS Pro
has sample rates of up to 96kHz

Read my CubaseFAQ, the section about Creative soundcards. The issue
isn't confined to Cubase.



I see what you say, I thought that you were complaining that the sample
rate wasn't high enough. Surely this problem is only one for ASIO
recording ? I heard that there is a version of Cubase made to work at
48kHz sample rate though, isn't that the case ?

I don't think you quite understand the issue. Cubase, in all versions
that I know of, is happy with any of the common sample rates. That
isn't the issue. Musicians generally WANT to work at 44.1KHz because
they're importing samples at that rate and the end product is usually
a CD. The Creative cards work internally at a fixed 48KHz. Maybe
this is necessary for the on-board sample player - it isn't going to
sound right if the sample rate isn't fixed. But it means all audio
passing through the card is re-sampled on-the-fly to 48Khz. In a
multi-track recording environment synchronisation between tracks loses
stability.

Musicians also want low latency. This means an ASIO driver.
(Actually, unless they play software synths in real-time low latency
isn't a Holy Grail. But that's another topic).

We really hoped this resampling issue would be addressed with the
Audigy 2. But it wasn't.

Luckily, cards suitable for multi-track work at any sample rate are
easily available and cheap - cheaper than the premium Audigy cards in
many cases. Domestic users choose an Audigy. There's a lot of
features for your money. Multitrack recordists choose something
from Echo, M-Audio or several other makers.



CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:04:00 GMT, David Troxell - Encourager Software
wrote:

Lorin, I think the reference was for the E-MU line of sound cards such as
the E-MU 1820M (http://tinyurl.com/8brpr).

Let's hope these have turned over a new leaf. Creative have a lot of
bad reputation to overcome in the semi-pro audio field. I'm slightly
surprised they used that brand name. But then, Roland, who had an
excellent reputation, threw it away and started over with Edirol. Go
figure?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:04:00 GMT, David Troxell - Encourager Software
wrote:

Lorin, I think the reference was for the E-MU line of sound cards such as
the E-MU 1820M (http://tinyurl.com/8brpr).

Let's hope these have turned over a new leaf. Creative have a lot of
bad reputation to overcome in the semi-pro audio field.

Laurence, I couldn't find any professional head to head reviews for this
range of sound cards, and semi-pro does more accurately describe the
performance level (probably what Lorin was alluding to).

I'm slightly surprised they used that brand name.
But then, Roland, who had an excellent reputation, threw
it away and started over with Edirol. Go figure?

I remember buying a 35mm Nikon camera years ago for about $200, and while it
did take excellent pictures, it wasn't even up to Nikkor quality. BUT the
Nikon name did get my attention! g

Ah, the days of the E-MU Emulator III sampler....g

David

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect


--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 32 PRO - Encourager Software
Email -
Clarion Third Party Profile Exchange Online
http://encouragersoftware.com/profile/clarlinks.html
http://www.encouragersoftware.com/

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:52:01 GMT, David Troxell - Encourager Software
wrote:

Let's hope these have turned over a new leaf. Creative have a lot of
bad reputation to overcome in the semi-pro audio field.

Laurence, I couldn't find any professional head to head reviews for this
range of sound cards, and semi-pro does more accurately describe the
performance level (probably what Lorin was alluding to).

Sound-on-Sound reviewed it in June 2004. A semi-pro magazine, I
admit :-)

..........Creative's own Audigy cards were hampered by confusing
software and engine limitations.

In my opinion Emu are the first company to have got it right with
their 1010 PCI card range.........................


This doesn't QUITE say the 48KHz resampling is history. And don't
forget the chip on the offending Soundblasters and Audigys was from
Emu.

Other parts of the review congratulate the card for not being merely a
re-packaging of old technology. But then, Cubase SX (and Nuendo)
were trumpeted as being completely new code. And there's a hell of a
lot of Cubase 5 (and even, I suspect Cubase 3.5) in both.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:55:12 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

This is plainly untrue
Creative Audigy ZS Pro
------Blah blah etc.

I don't think you quite understand the issue. Cubase, in all versions
that I know of, is happy with any of the common sample rates. That
isn't the issue.

Ok, I see....it is YEARS since I used Cubase, I stopped using that
when I discovered "Reason" version 1

Musicians generally WANT to work at 44.1KHz because
they're importing samples at that rate and the end product is usually
a CD.

For "WANT to" read "FORCED to" ...... ;~))
The sample rate of the *end product* is irrelevant surely.
I have tried using 44.1kHz samples with the sequencer
running at 96kHz and when the final mixdown was then
written to a 44.1kHz wav, no artifacts could be heard.

The Creative cards work internally at a fixed 48KHz. Maybe
this is necessary for the on-board sample player - it isn't going to
sound right if the sample rate isn't fixed. But it means all audio
passing through the card is re-sampled on-the-fly to 48Khz.

Because the clock speed is 48kHz, does that mean that the D / A
convertor has to resample a *wav* with a rate of 44.1 kHz
to some different rate, if it is saved on the HDD ?

In a multi-track recording environment synchronisation
between tracks loses stability.

By "multi-track" do you mean recording from several
different MIDI instruments simultaneously, or do you
mean playing back several MIDI tracks simultaneously
and recording another MIDI, at the same time ?

We really hoped this resampling issue would be addressed with the
Audigy 2. But it wasn't.

This is why I raved on originally about driver signing and DirectX
compatibility with the soundcard drivers. I don't think that this
resampling problem is an issue if you are using DirectX enabled
software, such as "Reason".

Luckily, cards suitable for multi-track work at any sample rate are
easily available and cheap - cheaper than the premium Audigy cards in
many cases.

Again, please explain what you mean by "multi-track work". ;-o

............. Zed

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:39:08 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

We really hoped this resampling issue would be addressed with the
Audigy 2. But it wasn't.

This is why I raved on originally about driver signing and DirectX
compatibility with the soundcard drivers. I don't think that this
resampling problem is an issue if you are using DirectX enabled
software, such as "Reason".

I really don't know why you're obsessed with driver signing. This
doesn't imply approval of any kind. It just means that the maker
subscribes to a service such as provided by Verisign that certifies
the user is getting an authentic copy. Sort of a super check-sum.


Luckily, cards suitable for multi-track work at any sample rate are
easily available and cheap - cheaper than the premium Audigy cards in
many cases.

Again, please explain what you mean by "multi-track work". ;-o

If you work exclusively with Reason, which basically just
cuts-and-pastes pre-recorded material, you probably won't have a
problem.

If you create your own music from scratch, using a combination of
internally-produced sounds and live input, and you want to keep new
input synchronised with what is already recorded, you will


CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:39:08 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

We really hoped this resampling issue would be addressed with the
Audigy 2. But it wasn't.

This is why I raved on originally about driver signing and DirectX
compatibility with the soundcard drivers. I don't think that this
resampling problem is an issue if you are using DirectX enabled
software, such as "Reason".

I really don't know why you're obsessed with driver signing. This
doesn't imply approval of any kind. It just means that the maker
subscribes to a service such as provided by Verisign that certifies
the user is getting an authentic copy. Sort of a super check-sum.


This is an issue related to Microsoft DirectX
Latest versions of DirectX ( from version 9.xx )
check for Microsoft driver signing, and if your
soundcard driver is not signed then DX Diagnostics
will show that driver as being in error and not compatible
with DirectX and programs which rely on DirectX
will not operate correctly, if at all. ;-(


Luckily, cards suitable for multi-track work at any sample rate are
easily available and cheap - cheaper than the premium Audigy cards in
many cases.

Again, please explain what you mean by "multi-track work". ;-o


If you work exclusively with Reason, which basically just
cuts-and-pastes pre-recorded material, you probably won't have a
problem.


This is not the case, "Reason" is much more than a cut/paste machine
as anyone who has used it will tell you. ( have *you* used it ? )

If you create your own music from scratch, using a combination of
internally-produced sounds and live input, and you want to keep new
input synchronised with what is already recorded, you will



Of course this is what *I* do all the time with "Reason" ;-)
As I already said, "Reason" has far more variations than
any *live* sounds than I ever heard from *ANY* other
synth on the planet Earth !!

Analogue / digital synths, Malstrom combo synth,
DR Rex loop player, Drum machine, Zillions of effects,
and multiple 14 channel mixers etc, etc.

Check out this website, do yourself a favour ;-)

http://www.diplo.co.uk/music/reason.php

..........Zed




CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:54:26 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

Of course this is what *I* do all the time with "Reason" ;-)
As I already said, "Reason" has far more variations than
any *live* sounds than I ever heard from *ANY* other
synth on the planet Earth !!

Analogue / digital synths, Malstrom combo synth,
DR Rex loop player, Drum machine, Zillions of effects,
and multiple 14 channel mixers etc, etc.

Yes, I know Reason. It does a lot of things. But what it ISN'T is a
multitrack audio recorder. If you want to include live input, you
Rewire it to Cubase, or similar.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:54:26 +0100, "Zed" wrote:

This is an issue related to Microsoft DirectX
Latest versions of DirectX ( from version 9.xx )
check for Microsoft driver signing, and if your
soundcard driver is not signed then DX Diagnostics
will show that driver as being in error and not compatible
with DirectX and programs which rely on DirectX
will not operate correctly, if at all. ;-(

I hear you. There seem to be two types of driver signing. Can you
point me to references confirming that non-signed drivers will not
work correctly, as opposed to Microsoft's warnings that such drivers
are not GUARANTEED to work correctly?

Here, for instance, Is a section from a M-Audio soundcard manual.
...................
During the course of installation, messages about the Microsoft
Digital Signature for the driver will appear. Microsoft tests drivers
to ensure they work properly with their operating systems. While
driver signing makes installation and operation more streamlined, it
is not a necessity for a device to function properly with the
operating system. Currently, M-Audio’s FireWire drivers are not
digitally signed. However, M-Audio is committed to providing the best
possible drivers for our products and we constantly evaluate and test
our drivers to ensure that they work properly. As a result, there is
no need to worry about the driver not being signed.
.........................

Are they lying?