If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII to a video camera, what
exactly does that do? For the camera? For me? For anything? Thanks.

wrote:
If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII
to a video camera, what exactly does that do? For the
camera? For me? For anything? Thanks.

If you ask for SMPTE you get:
http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.c...213622,00.html

Therefore better ask:
http://www.google.com/search?&q=smpt...+code+glossary

A frame-numbering system developed by SMPTE that assigns
a number to each frame of video. The 8-digit code is in the form
HH:MM:SS:FF (hours, minutes, seconds, frame number).
The numbers track elapsed hours, minutes, seconds, and
frames from any chosen point.

SMPTE is time code recorded on an audio channel of a tape
and is used to label each block or frame of a tape with a
unique identifying address. Commonly used when referring
to either DAT or U-Matic tape.

Cheers Jens

In article .com,
wrote:
If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII to a video camera, what
exactly does that do? For the camera? For me? For anything? Thanks.

It means you get a videotape with SMPTE timecode on it. So when you
take the tape or files you recorded on the MOTU system and the videotape to the
post house, they can synch the two together.

SMPTE is a timecode signal... it just repeats the current time every frame.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
bayareamusician wrote:
If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII to a
video camera, what exactly does that do? For the camera?
For me? For anything? Thanks.

It means you get a videotape with SMPTE timecode on it.
So when you take the tape or files you recorded on the MOTU
system and the videotape to the post house, they can synch
the two together.

SMPTE is a timecode signal... it just repeats the current time
every frame.

Note that feeding TC to a camera doesn't necessarily cause the
camera to *sync* to the TC. It could still be "wild" compared
to the video genlock standard.

In article .com writes:

If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII to a video camera, what
exactly does that do? For the camera? For me? For anything? Thanks.

Probably nothing. Generally the camera sends the time code to the
audio recorder so that the audio can stay in sync with the video. But
if you're talking about connecting it to an input that's there for the
purpose of recording time code from an external source, then you'll
get the tape "striped" with time code from the computer rather than
internally generated by the camera.

If you're using the camera to play a videotape, and it can synchronize
to time code (not likely, with a camera that you'd have to ask about),
then the time code would control the playing of the tape, telling it
where to start playing, and keeping the speed in line with the audio.

To better answer your question, we need to know more about the
camera in question and how you plan to hook it up.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
bayareamusician wrote:
If I send a SMPTE signal from my MOTU 828MKII to a
video camera, what exactly does that do? For the camera?
For me? For anything? Thanks.

It means you get a videotape with SMPTE timecode on it.
So when you take the tape or files you recorded on the MOTU
system and the videotape to the post house, they can synch
the two together.

SMPTE is a timecode signal... it just repeats the current time
every frame.

Note that feeding TC to a camera doesn't necessarily cause the
camera to *sync* to the TC. It could still be "wild" compared
to the video genlock standard.

Right! In the film world, it doesn't sycnh at all, it just records
timecode on each frame, and leaves it up to the post guys to do the
actual synchronization. Video is probably the same.

Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera came out
of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture will too.

There's little point otherwise. The frame rate is very important.

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera
came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture
will too.

No, I don't think so. I have the service manual for my DSR-300
(pro DVCAM) and the TC signal path and the GL signal path
don't even know about each other.

Besides there is MUCH more to genlock than frame pacing
(horizontal phase and subcarrier phase, to be precise).

On 28/07/05 19:27, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:

(...)
Right! In the film world, it doesn't sycnh at all, it just records
timecode on each frame, and leaves it up to the post guys to do the
actual synchronization. Video is probably the same.

Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera came out
of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture will too.

There's little point otherwise. The frame rate is very important.

Nah. On most productions, you sync to the slate, basta. In the cutting room.
You you wanna do it fancy, get a smart slate, which displays the sound tc on
the slate.

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

And, yes, the frame rate is important, but I suspect not in the way you
think... Most stuff we do, camera is 24FPS, and sound is 25FPS...

Film is an oldfashioned business... When the first HD recorders appeared on
sets (not so very long ago), we had to convince many post houses to adapt to
that too... "What is, Nagra or DAT? - It's a DVD-Ram - Huh?"


--
Joe Kotroczo

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera
came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture
will too.

No, I don't think so. I have the service manual for my DSR-300
(pro DVCAM) and the TC signal path and the GL signal path
don't even know about each other.

Besides there is MUCH more to genlock than frame pacing
(horizontal phase and subcarrier phase, to be precise).

Actually I was thinking more of betacam. There's no significant technical
reason why other formats shouldn't be *able* to lock to SMPTE though. I
guess it's marketing.

Graham

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera
came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture
will too.

No, I don't think so. I have the service manual for my DSR-300
(pro DVCAM) and the TC signal path and the GL signal path
don't even know about each other.

Besides there is MUCH more to genlock than frame pacing
(horizontal phase and subcarrier phase, to be precise).

Sure thing about subcarrier etc. But when it gets digitised and fed into a
non-linear editing suite it becomes irrelevant.

Graham

On 28/07/05 20:37, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:


Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera
came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture
will too.

No, I don't think so. I have the service manual for my DSR-300
(pro DVCAM) and the TC signal path and the GL signal path
don't even know about each other.

Besides there is MUCH more to genlock than frame pacing
(horizontal phase and subcarrier phase, to be precise).

Sure thing about subcarrier etc. But when it gets digitised and fed into a
non-linear editing suite it becomes irrelevant.

If it's a DVCam, it gets digitized inside the camera, doesn't it?


--
Joe Kotroczo

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:37, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:

Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the camera
came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of recent manufacture
will too.

No, I don't think so. I have the service manual for my DSR-300
(pro DVCAM) and the TC signal path and the GL signal path
don't even know about each other.

Besides there is MUCH more to genlock than frame pacing
(horizontal phase and subcarrier phase, to be precise).

Sure thing about subcarrier etc. But when it gets digitised and fed into a
non-linear editing suite it becomes irrelevant.

If it's a DVCam, it gets digitized inside the camera, doesn't it?

That's another story entirely !

Graham

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, let's face it, the clapper board is hardly *hi-tech* ! - even if it does
have an LED display ! ;-)

Graham

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.


--
Joe Kotroczo

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote ...
If it's a DVCam, it gets digitized inside the camera, doesn't it?

Yes, but the issue is whether the camera actually locks to the
"frame-rate" of the SMPTE timecode, or whether it just takes
the nearest TC value that came in and assigns it to the next
block of frame data written to the tape.

I very much believe it is the latter. Which is why cameras of that
genre have *both* TC input and GL input.

This is actually a perfect question for the film-sound newsgroup...
news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound

This topic is discussed quite regularly over there by people who
do it for a living.

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.

Sorry, I don't understand what's *complicated* about timecode !

It's a very simple measure to ensure sync.

Graham

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, in rec.audio.pro Pooh Bear
wrote:

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.

Sorry, I don't understand what's *complicated* about timecode !

It's a very simple measure to ensure sync.

Graham
don't ever mention 2:3 pulldown or 30fps Vs 29.97fps


martin

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, in rec.audio.pro Pooh Bear
wrote:

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.

Sorry, I don't understand what's *complicated* about timecode !

It's a very simple measure to ensure sync.

Graham
ah not so simple
30Vs29.97fps, 3:2 pull down Pal/Ntsc frame rates, and with HD around
the corner things can get very confused in Post.

I was recently chatting to about this to a friend who is still in the
TeeVee industry (Poor Sod), cant remember if it was C4, Carlton or
Sky, but they have up to 7 different formats for some programs.

Dont ask.....


martin

martin griffith wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, in rec.audio.pro Pooh Bear
wrote:

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.

Sorry, I don't understand what's *complicated* about timecode !

It's a very simple measure to ensure sync.

Graham
don't ever mention 2:3 pulldown or 30fps Vs 29.97fps

Trust *you* to mention drop-frame ! I've never entirely understood that one myself
except that NTSC screwed up.

Graham

martin griffith wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, in rec.audio.pro Pooh Bear
wrote:

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 28/07/05 20:33, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote:

You can do TC with most cameras, and auto-sync in post, but nobody really
uses it. You have to be anal about jamming TC, and most ACs can't be
bothered. And many post houses don't even have the equipment to read the
on-film TC...
On the last one I did, we tried it, we convinced to post house to invest
into the Aaton Keylink, and than we had to teach them how to use it...

This is really just a wonderful thing for documentary work, where you
are starting and stopping the camera a lot and don't have time to slate
everything, though.

Yes, absolutely, especially if you do your own editing and have to do
everything by yourself. Or if you do a multi-camera shoot of a concert...

But on feature films, it doesn't really matter, things get slated properly,
and that works fine. (And has worked fine for a very long time.) So why make
your life (on set) complicated with timecode? Smart slates are a good idea
though, if you can convice production to pay for them.

We did it on that movie, by the way, because the DOP and the sound engineer
both wanted to play with their Aaton toys... (35-3P and Cantar) And no, the
35-3P (3perf) is not "virtually noiseless", as they claim. Still louder than
an Arri 535 in 4perf. IMHO.

Sorry, I don't understand what's *complicated* about timecode !

It's a very simple measure to ensure sync.

Graham
ah not so simple
30Vs29.97fps, 3:2 pull down Pal/Ntsc frame rates, and with HD around
the corner things can get very confused in Post.

I was recently chatting to about this to a friend who is still in the
TeeVee industry (Poor Sod), cant remember if it was C4, Carlton or
Sky, but they have up to 7 different formats for some programs.

Dont ask.....

Trust me - I won't !

Drop frame does my head in. I had a feeling you might mention this and I'm pleased
( after a fashion ) to say I recalled the number 29.97 too !

Aaarrrggghhh !

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Trust *you* to mention drop-frame ! I've never entirely
understood that one myself except that NTSC screwed up.

Drop Frame refers only to dropping frame *numbers*.
Since the NTSC frame rate is 0.01% fast (29.97 FPS)
you must drop 0.01% of the frame *numbers* to keep
the video numbering in sync with the wall-clock. You
can read the spec to see exactly which frame numbers
are always skipped, etc. Not as complicated as all that.

NTSC was forced to "screw up" and change the frame
rate from 30 FPS because of the requirement for down-
ward compatibility with existing B&W (RS170) video
standard and staying within the 6 MHz TV channel width.
There were millions of TV receivers, and millions of $$$
worth of origination equipment, etc. at stake.

Richard Crowley wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Trust *you* to mention drop-frame ! I've never entirely
understood that one myself except that NTSC screwed up.

Drop Frame refers only to dropping frame *numbers*.
Since the NTSC frame rate is 0.01% fast (29.97 FPS)
you must drop 0.01% of the frame *numbers* to keep
the video numbering in sync with the wall-clock. You
can read the spec to see exactly which frame numbers
are always skipped, etc. Not as complicated as all that.

NTSC was forced to "screw up" and change the frame
rate from 30 FPS because of the requirement for down-
ward compatibility with existing B&W (RS170) video
standard and staying within the 6 MHz TV channel width.
There were millions of TV receivers, and millions of $$$
worth of origination equipment, etc. at stake.

Wasn't the 'screw-up' inherent in the 30fps 525 line standard though?

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Richard Crowley wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Trust *you* to mention drop-frame ! I've never entirely
understood that one myself except that NTSC screwed up.

Drop Frame refers only to dropping frame *numbers*.
Since the NTSC frame rate is 0.01% fast (29.97 FPS)
you must drop 0.01% of the frame *numbers* to keep
the video numbering in sync with the wall-clock. You
can read the spec to see exactly which frame numbers
are always skipped, etc. Not as complicated as all that.

NTSC was forced to "screw up" and change the frame
rate from 30 FPS because of the requirement for down-
ward compatibility with existing B&W (RS170) video
standard and staying within the 6 MHz TV channel width.
There were millions of TV receivers, and millions of $$$
worth of origination equipment, etc. at stake.

Wasn't the 'screw-up' inherent in the 30fps 525 line standard though?

No. Before color (NTSC), it was exactly 30.000 FPS.
Of course, there was no timecode back then, so nobody
appreciated it. :-)

"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Nah. Video will sync up to SMPTE no problem unless the
camera came out of the ark. I expect most film cameras of
recent manufacture will too.

The guys over on news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound say no.
They are the ones who do this for a living, so I think I'll take
their word for it.

"Pooh Bear" wrote:

Trust *you* to mention drop-frame ! I've never entirely understood
that one myself


Don't worry, "it's all part of growing up and being British." (with
apologies and unpaid royalties to Monty Python.)

It's actually not as complicated as it sounds. It's a way to make sure
that an hour of time code matches exactly an hour on the wall clock,
even though the time code isn't exactly 30 frames per second.

30 frames per second would be 108,000 frames per hour. The frame rate
of NTSC video is 29.97 frames per second though, so it actually takes
more than an hour to go through 108,000 frames. In broadcast that
matters, because you want programs to start and finish according to the
clock on the wall.

To solve that problem, drop-frame time code throws away some numbers, so
that an hour of tape is really an hour. The formula is two frames every
minute except the tens. That means that you go from 0:00:59,29 to
00:01:00,02. There is no frame 00 or 01 in that particular second. Nor
would there be in the first second of minute two, three or four, etc.
There *would* be in minute ten though, and also in minute twenty,
thirty, etc.

Stated another way, the first second of every minute is only 28 frames,
except for minutes that are multiples of ten.

Okay, maybe it is as complicated as it sounds...

More info he http://www.dropframetimecode.org/

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)