I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

mcp6453 wrote:
I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

Scary, you know?

Guess I'll have to throw out all them Neves and stuff.

--fletch

this would be a nice time to educate me on the real advantage i would
have of spending USD350 on the RNC. (after i pay customs in india)

If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping, and use
a good plugin afterwards.

Since the RNC is also very transparent, i doubt one can relly use it to
add color.

thanks
Sidhu

Sidhu wrote:

If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping,

With good equipment, this is probably true -- unless you have a wildly
unpredictable source.

Sidhu wrote:
this would be a nice time to educate me on the real advantage i would
have of spending USD350 on the RNC. (after i pay customs in india)

At that price, it is a real deal. It will let you bring your average
levels up without bringing the peak levels up. It is useful in tracking,
in mixing, and on the 2-buss.

If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping, and use
a good plugin afterwards.

Yes, this is true. But if you want things louder and denser,
compression is still a good idea.

Protection limiting, though, is really not a good idea with all the
available dynamic range. And the RNC isn't very good asa protection
limiter anyway.

Since the RNC is also very transparent, i doubt one can relly use it to
add color.

No, but it will still add squash and make things denser by bringing the
average levels up.

There used to be an interesting and highly-colored limiter that was
made in India for the local broadcast market. I know All-India-Radio
used the things for transmitter protection.... there have to be a bunch
of them out there. I'll think of the name in a bit...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Sidhu" wrote in news:1122046478.179526.161320
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping, and use
a good plugin afterwards.

I respectfully disagree.
It can be quite easy to overload (clip) the converters on your audio
interface going in.

"P. Chamney" wrote in message
0

It can be quite easy to overload (clip) the converters on
your
audio interface going in.

Sure, misadjust preamp's gain and the preamp and/or the
converter clips. Avoiding this can take some skill.

The important question is not whether you can overload the
converters going in, because you can always do that if you
are careless.

The important question is whether or not taking reasonable
steps to avoid overloading the preamp and converters causes
other problems.

In the real world, tracking means shoving a signal with at
very, very most 80 dB dynamic range through a modern
coverter with at the very least 96 dB dynamic range.

P. Chamney wrote:
"Sidhu" wrote in news:1122046478.179526.161320

If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping, and use
a good plugin afterwards.

I respectfully disagree.
It can be quite easy to overload (clip) the converters on your audio
interface going in.

Then TURN IT DOWN.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Sidhu" wrote in message
oups.com...

Since the RNC is also very transparent, i doubt one can relly use it to
add color.


If you want color you'll have to look elsewhere. Most times today when I
hear people talk about compression they're talking more about the color than
the actual volume leveling. I think that's why some are disappointed (if
they misunderstand these things) when they hear a RNC (or more correctly
DON'T hear a RNC). I have to look at the meters to even be sure it's working
a lot of times.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Sidhu wrote:
this would be a nice time to educate me on the real advantage i would
have of spending USD350 on the RNC. (after i pay customs in india)

At that price, it is a real deal. It will let you bring your average
levels up without bringing the peak levels up. It is useful in tracking,
in mixing, and on the 2-buss.

At a price of 350USD ?



If i were to have the RNC i would use it during tracking. There was
this other thread which stated that taming peaks during tracking in a
well setup digital domain was quite pointless, as tere is actually
enough headroom to record reasonable levels withought clipping, and use
a good plugin afterwards.

Yes, this is true. But if you want things louder and denser,
compression is still a good idea.


Ofcource, i use compressors a lot. My question was how much of a
difference will compressing the source during tracking make over using
compression in post ? Unless i mildly compress both during tracking and
in post. Still not convinced this would make a lootta difference. But i
really have not ever done that.


Since the RNC is also very transparent, i doubt one can relly use it to
add color.

No, but it will still add squash and make things denser by bringing the
average levels up.

There used to be an interesting and highly-colored limiter that was
made in India for the local broadcast market. I know All-India-Radio
used the things for transmitter protection.... there have to be a bunch
of them out there. I'll think of the name in a bit...
--scott

Thats real intreasting. I would imagine that the higly color'ed
compressor you talk about, would be so, more because of cheap build
rather than by design. I really dont know, but 'Ahuja' by any chance ?

AIR updated their studios a while ago, what they forgot to do was
update their techies. They have DAT machines and CD players now, but
try sending them anything other that 1/4 inch. They reject it! :~\

thanks a ton. Id love have a couple of cheap but charecter compressors
added.

Sidhu

Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad drummer?) i would tend
to disagree, i almost never have any trouble tracking 24bit. But I can
understand it's equally easy to clip the converters. One does need to
be carefull.

Sidhu

I can imagine it working real well on the mix buss then....

Sidhu

"Sidhu" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can imagine it working real well on the mix buss then....

Sidhu


Passable to good, depending on the program material.

Predrag

In article . com writes:

Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad drummer?)

Send the drummer home and get a replacement.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Sidhu wrote:

Ofcource, i use compressors a lot. My question was how much of a
difference will compressing the source during tracking make over using
compression in post ? Unless i mildly compress both during tracking and
in post. Still not convinced this would make a lootta difference. But i
really have not ever done that.

In the modern digital world, it won't make any difference if you compress
during tracking or in post.

But you'll find the RNC will beat most other compressors hands down in
either application, for clean compression.

There used to be an interesting and highly-colored limiter that was
made in India for the local broadcast market. I know All-India-Radio
used the things for transmitter protection.... there have to be a bunch
of them out there. I'll think of the name in a bit...

Thats real intreasting. I would imagine that the higly color'ed
compressor you talk about, would be so, more because of cheap build
rather than by design. I really dont know, but 'Ahuja' by any chance ?

No, it was named after a location.... I will think of it.

There also was a Russian compressor called the "Audion" which was very
popular in broadcast applications in Asia in the late eighties. They
were full of really bad op-amps and kind of noisy, but the were still
fun compressors. I have one and I still use it now and then.

AIR updated their studios a while ago, what they forgot to do was
update their techies. They have DAT machines and CD players now, but
try sending them anything other that 1/4 inch. They reject it! :~\

I hear rumors that JAI is not manufacturing tape right now, and the
guys trying to restart Zonal are horribly backordered because they
are getting enormous orders from AIR and from the South African SABC.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article . com writes:

Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad drummer?)

Send the drummer home and get a replacement.


Drummers with a wildly unpredictable (to the engineer, obviously not to
the bandleader) dynamics are sometimes the most engaging part of the
music. If a drummer can play from a whisper to a scream within the
song and it works, why send him home? ("Elvin, sorry, just leave. I
need to replace you with someone easier to record") Just record him so
it records without clipping or squashing. Why get a replacement who
plays with less dynamics? Nothing wrong with the drummer. Just
needs to be dealt with.

Sidhu wrote:
Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad drummer?)

I'm thinking "amateur vocalist who can't decide whether to eat the mic
or keep it two feet from the mouth." Especially if you have no way to
manually ride gain (increasingly common these days, sigh...)

Sidhu wrote:

Thats real intreasting. I would imagine that the higly color'ed
compressor you talk about, would be so, more because of cheap build
rather than by design. I really dont know, but 'Ahuja' by any chance ?

LMAO !

I know one of the Ahujas and his company rather well. ;-)

Graham

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I hear rumors that JAI is not manufacturing tape right now, and the
guys trying to restart Zonal are horribly backordered because they
are getting enormous orders from AIR and from the South African SABC.
--scott

I dunno about JAI making tape anymore or not. But I needed a couple of
spools for a project recently, and managed to get hold of them quite
easy. We had a correspondence regarding Tapes via email a while back.
If you're intreasted ill be more than willing to send some over.

Sidhu

Sidhu wrote:

Ofcource, i use compressors a lot. My question was how much of a
difference will compressing the source during tracking make over using
compression in post ? Unless i mildly compress both during tracking and
in post. Still not convinced this would make a lootta difference. But i
really have not ever done that.

The difference, if you have high dynamic range converters is
simply the flexibility you have later in the game. If you
do it in tracking you are stuck with it. If you wait you
can play with it. At the end of the day, with good
converters and good algorithms the sound won't be better or
worse simply on the basis of where you did it.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

mcp6453 wrote:
I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!


I have an RNC also....do you ever use it for post-processing after
recording the "raw" audio? If so, how do the results vary? Thanks!

Jonny Durango

"Sidhu" wrote in message
ups.com

Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad
drummer?)

It's hard to imagine a real-world source that would be so
bad as to need compression to be effectively recorded with
even just 16 bit resolution.

i would tend to disagree, i almost never have
any trouble tracking 24bit. But I can understand it's
equally easy to clip the converters.

It's easy to clip mic preamps or just about anything else
electronic.

One does need to be carefull.

Thats one reason why very few sucessful recordists are
monkeys.

Ricky Hunt wrote:
"Sidhu" wrote in message
oups.com...

Since the RNC is also very transparent, i doubt one can relly use it to
add color.



If you want color you'll have to look elsewhere. Most times today when I
hear people talk about compression they're talking more about the color than
the actual volume leveling. I think that's why some are disappointed (if
they misunderstand these things) when they hear a RNC (or more correctly
DON'T hear a RNC). I have to look at the meters to even be sure it's working
a lot of times.


I can dig what you're saying, but IME you can add colour if you really
want to... not that it'll do a whole pallette, but it can definitely do
"squishy" and "spanky". Not in Super Nice mode, though. That's just
"slow levelor".

Cheers,
-joe.



________________________________________

Dyslexics have more fnu.

In article .com writes:

Drummers with a wildly unpredictable (to the engineer, obviously not to
the bandleader) dynamics are sometimes the most engaging part of the
music.

The engineer shouldn't have a problem capturing what the bandleader
likes. But if the bandleader realizes, when hearing a recording, that
the drummer is a problem, something needs to be done.

If a drummer can play from a whisper to a scream within the
song and it works, why send him home?

No reason to, because it works. The problem is when the drummer is
playing at scream level when the rest of the band is whispering (or
some other situation) and it DOESN'T work. The problem is rarely that
the drummer plays inconsistently, when there's a problem it's usualy
that his playing isn't consistent with the dynamics or tone of the
song. Somebody needs to tell him that. It really shouldn't be the
engineer making excuses, it should be the band telling him to get with
the program or go home.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

The difference, if you have high dynamic range converters is
simply the flexibility you have later in the game. If you
do it in tracking you are stuck with it. If you wait you
can play with it.

The problem with a consoleless and hardwareless control room is that
you often want to have a compressed (though not necessarily with the
final settings) version in the monitor mix when tracking. This can
help other players as well as avoid distractions. With today's setups,
it's not quite as simple to patch a compressor into the tape return
path (compressing just what you're hearing in the monitor) and just
leave it set so the dynamics variations aren't objectionable.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
In article . com writes:

Unless we have a wildy unpredictable source (bad drummer?)

Send the drummer home and get a replacement.

Drummers with a wildly unpredictable (to the engineer, obviously not to
the bandleader) dynamics are sometimes the most engaging part of the
music. If a drummer can play from a whisper to a scream within the
song and it works, why send him home? ("Elvin, sorry, just leave. I
need to replace you with someone easier to record") Just record him so
it records without clipping or squashing. Why get a replacement who
plays with less dynamics? Nothing wrong with the drummer. Just
needs to be dealt with.

I think Mike is taking about those drummers who have wildly unpredictable
dynamics that -are- unpredictable to the bandleader.

You can't do anything about the drummer who constantly breaks out into solos
at inappropriate times while the bandleader glares at him in a mix of anger
and horror, though.

Last time I saw Mose Allison playing with a local pickup band, I thought
Mose was going to walk out any moment and just leave the drummer there
alone.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:



It's easy to clip mic preamps or just about anything else
electronic.

One does need to be carefull.

Thats one reason why very few sucessful recordists are
monkeys.

They are, unfortunately, more common than one might hope....:-{

--
Anti-Spam email address in effect.
My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being.

mcp6453 writes:

I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

I just sold my RNC. Nice GR control performance, but even looping through
the box with *no* GR lost a lot of sparkle. Things got dull and "dark"
sounding. (Sorry to use that word, but it's fairly accurate.) Even the
"bypass" setting didn't seem to help.

Perhaps the i/o ciruits are a bit on the cheap. Maybe the thing
could be tweaked, but I didn't what to take the time.

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be quite
effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss just looping
through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as the RNC.

As always, YMMV.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

Frank Stearns wrote:

mcp6453 writes:

I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

I just sold my RNC. Nice GR control performance, but even looping through
the box with *no* GR lost a lot of sparkle. Things got dull and "dark"
sounding. (Sorry to use that word, but it's fairly accurate.) Even the
"bypass" setting didn't seem to help.

Perhaps the i/o ciruits are a bit on the cheap. Maybe the thing
could be tweaked, but I didn't what to take the time.

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be quite
effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss just looping
through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as the RNC.

As always, YMMV.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

Interesting. When I measured the RNC a few years ago, it was flat, out
to around 200kHz - and that was with 6dB of gain reduction.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
...
Frank Stearns wrote:

mcp6453 writes:

I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've tried by
a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

I just sold my RNC. Nice GR control performance, but even looping through
the box with *no* GR lost a lot of sparkle. Things got dull and "dark"
sounding. (Sorry to use that word, but it's fairly accurate.) Even the
"bypass" setting didn't seem to help.

Perhaps the i/o ciruits are a bit on the cheap. Maybe the thing
could be tweaked, but I didn't what to take the time.

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be quite
effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss just
looping
through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as the RNC.

As always, YMMV.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

Interesting. When I measured the RNC a few years ago, it was flat, out
to around 200kHz - and that was with 6dB of gain reduction.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Strange indeed. Could it have been an interfacing problem, by any chance?

Predrag

Frank Stearns wrote:


I just sold my RNC. Nice GR control performance, but even looping through
the box with *no* GR lost a lot of sparkle. Things got dull and "dark"
sounding. (Sorry to use that word, but it's fairly accurate.) Even the
"bypass" setting didn't seem to help.

Perhaps the i/o ciruits are a bit on the cheap. Maybe the thing
could be tweaked, but I didn't what to take the time.

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be quite
effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss just looping
through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as the RNC.


Methinks you had a unit in need of repair, which is more rare among
these things than practically anything else on the planet. I can't
imagine a DBX 1066 being more transparent, or having less inline signal
loss. That's a pretty colored device.

But it's no fun getting poor sound no matter what the reason, and it's
a drag to make it right, tweaking or fixing. Glad the DBX is working
out for you.
V

"Predrag Trpkov" laid this on me:
"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
...
Frank Stearns wrote:

mcp6453 writes:

I am getting ready to do some post processing on a LOT of voice-only
files. It never ceases to amaze me how transparent the RNC is in the
Super Nice Mode for this purpose. It beats everything else I've
tried by a LONG shot. Way to go, Mark!

I just sold my RNC. Nice GR control performance, but even looping
through the box with *no* GR lost a lot of sparkle. Things got dull
and "dark" sounding. (Sorry to use that word, but it's fairly
accurate.) Even the "bypass" setting didn't seem to help.

Perhaps the i/o ciruits are a bit on the cheap. Maybe the thing
could be tweaked, but I didn't what to take the time.

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be
quite effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss
just looping through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as
the RNC.

As always, YMMV.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

Interesting. When I measured the RNC a few years ago, it was flat,
out to around 200kHz - and that was with 6dB of gain reduction.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Strange indeed. Could it have been an interfacing problem, by any
chance?

Predrag

I like my RNC, but I notice a similar thing with mine. I wouldn't say
it's as dramatic as what he is reporting . With my setup, it's more of a
subtle loss of sparkle, but not all the way to dull. I should note, I use it
through an RNP mostly, he used a GR, that could (likely does) contribute to
the difference.
Maybe it is an interfacing problem, if nobody else notices it but me
and him.
In which case...what sort of interfacing problem could cause this?

Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

seans_at_efn.org
http://www.efn.org/~seans

writes:

Frank Stearns wrote:

I did find a used DBX1066. If you don't hit it too hard it can be quite
effective and transparent. And while there is some sonic loss just looping
through with no GR, it's nowhere nearly as noticeable as the RNC.

Methinks you had a unit in need of repair, which is more rare among
these things than practically anything else on the planet. I can't
imagine a DBX 1066 being more transparent, or having less inline signal
loss. That's a pretty colored device.

But it's no fun getting poor sound no matter what the reason, and it's
a drag to make it right, tweaking or fixing. Glad the DBX is working
out for you.

When I got the 1066, I knew I was walking into VCA crunch land, but the
dealer said try it for a month, bring it back if I hated it. Once I got a
feel for it, things seem to work reasonably well, and I did like the
flexibility of the controls. Doing mostly classical and acoustic work,
compression use is infrequent.

The RNC drove me nuts after a while because I'd use it, think it was sort
of okay, but then soon discovered the sparkle killer aspects. It was used
both at the +4 balanced tape out/balanced console in point and more often
at the unbalanced higher-Z -2 insert points. The effect seemed the same
regardless of which path was used.

It probably does measure flat, and I wouldn't call the "darkening" a loss
of HF (though that's certainly the implication). The realness and
aliveness simply got sucked away.

I dunno. It's the difference, perhaps, between a garden variety mid-level
console mic pre and a Hardy/Grace/Millenia, et al. [Uh oh. Is Kev around?]

For $200, though, it's probably a great box for many applications. Did the
price really go up to $350??

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

Sean S writes:

- snip -

I like my RNC, but I notice a similar thing with mine. I wouldn't say
it's as dramatic as what he is reporting . With my setup, it's more of a
subtle loss of sparkle, but not all the way to dull. I should note, I use it
through an RNP mostly, he used a GR, that could (likely does) contribute to
the difference.

Oops, sorry; when I used the shorthand "GR" I meant "gain reduction" and
not Great River. (Good preamps, though.) I am running 10 channels of Grace
Designs preamps so yes I have gotten used to catching a lot of nuance from
acoustic/classical music sources.

Plus, with the help of many here I've had this ongoing and for the most
part successful project in rebuilding/enhancing my Soundcraft Delta
console to preserve those subtle sonic aspects. I also have pretty good
monitoring (soffit-mounted Tannoy SGM10Bs with Mastering Lab crossovers
in a good room).

So when something affects the sound, I'm likely to notice.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

In article l writes:

I like my RNC, but I notice a similar thing with mine. I wouldn't say
it's as dramatic as what he is reporting . With my setup, it's more of a
subtle loss of sparkle, but not all the way to dull.

Any compressor (without additional compensation) will change the shape
of the attack of the envelope of the signal it's processing. This will
affect the "brightness" of the audio. Sometimes we intentionally do
this intentionally, other times we want to minimize it. For what
appears (from the front panel knobs) to be the same settings, some
compressors just sound different. That's why we like to have so many
of them.

One man's "subtle loss of sparkle" is another many's "dull" so you
have to take these one word reviews for what they are.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

It probably does measure flat, and I wouldn't call the "darkening" a loss
of HF (though that's certainly the implication). The realness and
aliveness simply got sucked away.

This is exactly what a compressor does. Why are you even using one? It
could be that your dbx compressor just doesn't do very much (as you
have it set) so it doesn't bother you.

What does it do FOR you? There are a few different reasons to use a
compressor. What are you trying to accomplish?




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) writes:
In article writes:

It probably does measure flat, and I wouldn't call the "darkening" a loss
of HF (though that's certainly the implication). The realness and
aliveness simply got sucked away.

This is exactly what a compressor does. Why are you even using one? It

Sure. I'm completely aware of this, but with suitable ratio and attack/
release times you can usually achieve a measure of dynamic control without
excessive "loss of life."

You might have missed my original point -- the concern was that even with
NO GAIN REDUCTION, with the audio just looped through, I noted this sonic
loss with the RNC. This perhaps means a problem simply with the i/o
electronics (interface buffer amps, their power supply, coupling caps,
whatever).

Some singer-songwriters need a little help with the voice; a recording I
did of tablas (sp; Asian Indian percussion) needed some compression to
make them sit better in the mix.

The DBX did this quite nicely, with little sonic impact other than
reshaping the dynamic range (and thus internal balance) of the percussion.
Typically 4-6 dB of reduction, 3:1 ratio, moderately fast attack/release.
Without compression the bright tenor-ish drum was too loud compared to the
lower bass drum and smaller finger drums (forgive my improper naming of
the members of this drum family). The compression settings noted
rebalanced them quite effectively and made for a better mix with other
instruments.

could be that your dbx compressor just doesn't do very much (as you
have it set) so it doesn't bother you.

Correct -- a specific setting for a specific job, with the *underlying
positive aspect* that audio passing through the DBX (and I would assume
much higher-end compressors) is apparently not so adversely affected as
the same "pass through" operating condition on the RNC.

What does it do FOR you? There are a few different reasons to use a
compressor. What are you trying to accomplish?

Simply provide compression when I need it, with minimal sonic impact
beyond what one would expect from the general act of compression.

It may simply be apples and oranges. The RNC hits a price point that
perhaps means some corner cutting in certain areas that isn't a
big problem in many applications but is apparent in others.

As I said, the actual gain reduction control performance of the RNC seems
quite nice; perhaps for a different price point FMR could offer an
upgraded version with better interface electronics to marry to that high
quality gain control circuit.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

any idea about the 'made in india' compressor we were talking about ?
Scott ?

Sidhu






Scott Dorsey wrote:
Sidhu wrote:

Ofcource, i use compressors a lot. My question was how much of a
difference will compressing the source during tracking make over using
compression in post ? Unless i mildly compress both during tracking and
in post. Still not convinced this would make a lootta difference. But i
really have not ever done that.

In the modern digital world, it won't make any difference if you compress
during tracking or in post.

But you'll find the RNC will beat most other compressors hands down in
either application, for clean compression.

There used to be an interesting and highly-colored limiter that was
made in India for the local broadcast market. I know All-India-Radio
used the things for transmitter protection.... there have to be a bunch
of them out there. I'll think of the name in a bit...

Thats real intreasting. I would imagine that the higly color'ed
compressor you talk about, would be so, more because of cheap build
rather than by design. I really dont know, but 'Ahuja' by any chance ?

No, it was named after a location.... I will think of it.

There also was a Russian compressor called the "Audion" which was very
popular in broadcast applications in Asia in the late eighties. They
were full of really bad op-amps and kind of noisy, but the were still
fun compressors. I have one and I still use it now and then.

AIR updated their studios a while ago, what they forgot to do was
update their techies. They have DAT machines and CD players now, but
try sending them anything other that 1/4 inch. They reject it! :~\

I hear rumors that JAI is not manufacturing tape right now, and the
guys trying to restart Zonal are horribly backordered because they
are getting enormous orders from AIR and from the South African SABC.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

Sure. I'm completely aware of this, but with suitable ratio and attack/
release times you can usually achieve a measure of dynamic control without
excessive "loss of life."

I thought you would. You've been around for a while. But "usually" and
"excessive" are the operative (or non-operative) words here.

You might have missed my original point -- the concern was that even with
NO GAIN REDUCTION, with the audio just looped through, I noted this sonic
loss with the RNC.

That's unusual. I don't notice it with my RNC, but then I don't go
A/B-ing everything I connect. I only patch in the compressor when I
think I need it, and then I expect a certain change in the sound
because that's what I'm after. Since most of what I decide needs
compression either has too much "sparkle" and I'm trying to get rid of
it or it's something rather flat that needs the attack punched up a
bit.

It may simply be apples and oranges. The RNC hits a price point that
perhaps means some corner cutting in certain areas that isn't a
big problem in many applications but is apparent in others.

But isn't the DBX 1066 even less expensive? I don't think it's a
matter of cost, it's what the designer was after. Chances are you
wouldn't like an LA2 where you like the dbx either. If you've found
the right tool for your applications, there's no reason not to use it.
I'm not knocking it.

As I said, the actual gain reduction control performance of the RNC seems
quite nice

And this is why people seem to like it. I have an RNC, a dbx 160X, and
a dbx 166. It really doesn't matter to me which one I use, if any. If
whichever one I try doesn't do anything for me, I don't think any of
the others would, either, because compression isn't really what I'm
after. Dave Martin has about 25 different compressors and he uses them
as tone shaping devices, often with less than 2 dB of gain reduction
on peaks. As a compressor, it really isn't doing anything noticable,
but as a box that the signal passes through, it does what he's after.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) writes:
In article writes:

Sure. I'm completely aware of this, but with suitable ratio and attack/
release times you can usually achieve a measure of dynamic control without
excessive "loss of life."

I thought you would. You've been around for a while. But "usually" and
"excessive" are the operative (or non-operative) words here.

You might have missed my original point -- the concern was that even with
NO GAIN REDUCTION, with the audio just looped through, I noted this sonic
loss with the RNC.

That's unusual. I don't notice it with my RNC, but then I don't go
A/B-ing everything I connect. I only patch in the compressor when I
think I need it, and then I expect a certain change in the sound
because that's what I'm after. Since most of what I decide needs
compression either has too much "sparkle" and I'm trying to get rid of
it or it's something rather flat that needs the attack punched up a
bit.

Agreed completely. My "finding" with the RNC was not immediate; I never
suspected it at first because I don't really use compression on a daily
basis. But on later playbacks (days later) something kept bugging me
consistently about the sound of the various tracks I'd compressed within
the mixes, so much so over time that I went back and started playing with
the settings thinking I was whumping on it too hard. But no matter what I
tried, including no GR, the sound had been dulled.

And the problem being present with no GR was the clue.

Pull the critter out of the line and the sweetness came back again. The
old Quad-8s I used many glacial aeons ago (both optical and VCA-based
models) never seemed to alter the overall life of the track (unless you
really hit them hard), nor did the LA3A I used from time to time (I think
it was a 3, might have been a 2).

It may simply be apples and oranges. The RNC hits a price point that
perhaps means some corner cutting in certain areas that isn't a
big problem in many applications but is apparent in others.

But isn't the DBX 1066 even less expensive? I don't think it's a

Nope. List on the 1066 is around $500-600 I think, while the RNC was under
$200 (at least when I got it). That probably gave a few more dimes to the
DBX parts budget, such that the 1066 can use XLRs and have some additional
features such as independent channel GR controls, expander, and peak
limiter as well as compressor for each channel.

I haven't peeked inside, but perhaps DBX even opted for slightly better op
amps on the I/O buffers. That and the connectors alone might be what I'm
hearing.

Also, judging by the weight near the power inlet the thing might have a
slightly beefier power supply.

matter of cost, it's what the designer was after. Chances are you
wouldn't like an LA2 where you like the dbx either. If you've found
the right tool for your applications, there's no reason not to use it.
I'm not knocking it.

Understood, and of course the same applies to the RNC.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

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