I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?



remove nospam from address for direct reply.

John P Reber said:

I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?

This is peculiar. I think it might be a conspiracy. Were they "service" by
Microsoft or one of its proxies? You never know how far the Evil Computer
Megatron Corp. will go to spy on consumers.

If you buy one of these, take some precautions before using it. Have a service
tech (independent, not factory authorized) sweep it for monitoring devices.
Better yet, have them re-initialize the firmware to flush out any parasitic
circuits.

John P Reber wrote:

I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?

Non-warranty grey market firms are getting sneakier. Same
thing just by claiming it's "refurbished", they don't have
to explain the lack of a warranty.

Now, to be honest, I think that companies like Denon that
sell different versions for different prices and play the
"authorized dealer=warranty" game are relics of days past,
so I look elsewhere if I can. The shell game that they play
and the premium they charge in the U.S./E.U. compared to the rest
of the world is apalling, actually.

The fact is that if a company makes it, the warranty should
be just as valid no matter where you buy it, as long as
it's new and has the warranty cards in it. That would be
like GM saying that their cars have no warranty or support
because you bought it in Canada.

Joseph O'Blather said:

The fact is that if a company makes it, the warranty should
be just as valid no matter where you buy it, as long as
it's new and has the warranty cards in it. That would be
like GM saying that their cars have no warranty or support
because you bought it in Canada.


Boy, you can certainly generate some steam when you get irritated.

Unfortunately for you, commodities and warranties don't mix too well. A warranty
is a service and it's certainly reasonable for manufacturers to base them on the
entire business model.

You could make a better case for distinguishing between point-of-sale warranty
coverage and manufacturer-direct coverage. It's not for you to choose which of a
company's offerings are valuable enough for you to purchase. If you're buying a
new house, would you ask the developer not to put flooring in because you want
to handle it yourself?

George Middius wrote:
John P Reber said:


I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.


Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?


This is peculiar. I think it might be a conspiracy. Were they "service" by
Microsoft or one of its proxies? You never know how far the Evil Computer
Megatron Corp. will go to spy on consumers.

If you buy one of these, take some precautions before using it. Have a service
tech (independent, not factory authorized) sweep it for monitoring devices.
Better yet, have them re-initialize the firmware to flush out any parasitic
circuits.

Microsoft = Evil? You're kidding right?

Schizoid Man said:

This is peculiar. I think it might be a conspiracy. Were they "service" by
Microsoft or one of its proxies? You never know how far the Evil Computer
Megatron Corp. will go to spy on consumers.

If you buy one of these, take some precautions before using it. Have a
service tech (independent, not factory authorized) sweep it for monitoring
devices. Better yet, have them re-initialize the firmware to flush out any
parasitic circuits.

Microsoft = Evil? You're kidding right?


You're the self-proclaimed expert on humor. You tell me.

I assume you haven't Googled "parasitic circuits", else you'd know exactly what
I'm talking about.

George Middius wrote:

Schizoid Man said:

Microsoft = Evil? You're kidding right?

You're the self-proclaimed expert on humor. You tell me.

I assume you haven't Googled "parasitic circuits", else you'd know exactly what
I'm talking about.

Microsoft's philanthropy is legendary. If you count giving free software
as philanthropic then, in terms of pure numbers, they are by far the
most generous corporation in America today.

Given Gates's own stellar track record of giving aways gobs of money to
fight AIDS in Brazil or for education in Botswana, I would say that
Microsoft is a truly altruistic organization.

You are right, I have not Googled 'parasitic circuits', but if your
criticism stems from their strongarm commercial practices, it is no
different from what any other successful corporation does today.

Schizoid Man said:

I assume you haven't Googled "parasitic circuits", else you'd know exactly
what I'm talking about.

Microsoft's philanthropy [blah blah blah]

Where's your damn cork?

You are right, I have not Googled 'parasitic circuits',

No kidding.

criticism stems from their strongarm commercial practices, it is no
different from what any other successful corporation does today.

Regulators and courts say different. Strongarming is one thing. There are a
separate set of laws about restraining trade.

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:59:47 -0700, Schizoid Man wrote:


George Middius wrote:

Schizoid Man said:

Microsoft = Evil? You're kidding right?

You're the self-proclaimed expert on humor. You tell me.

I assume you haven't Googled "parasitic circuits", else you'd know exactly what
I'm talking about.

Microsoft's philanthropy is legendary. If you count giving free software
as philanthropic then, in terms of pure numbers, they are by far the
most generous corporation in America today.

So were most of the most evil barons of the 19th century. Do you have
a point? How does billyboy's philanthropy have the slightest to do with
microsoft's evil activities?

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:59:47 -0700, Schizoid Man wrote:



George Middius wrote:


Schizoid Man said:


Microsoft = Evil? You're kidding right?

You're the self-proclaimed expert on humor. You tell me.

I assume you haven't Googled "parasitic circuits", else you'd know exactly what
I'm talking about.


Microsoft's philanthropy is legendary. If you count giving free software
as philanthropic then, in terms of pure numbers, they are by far the
most generous corporation in America today.


So were most of the most evil barons of the 19th century. Do you have
a point? How does billyboy's philanthropy have the slightest to do with
microsoft's evil activities?

Would you care to elucidate what these "evil" activities are?

AZ Nomad said:

Microsoft's philanthropy is legendary. If you count giving free software
as philanthropic then, in terms of pure numbers, they are by far the
most generous corporation in America today.

So were most of the most evil barons of the 19th century. Do you have
a point? How does billyboy's philanthropy have the slightest to do with
microsoft's evil activities?

Schizo just likes to change the subject at random. He's not psychotic enough
to impress Krooger with his "debating trade" skills, but he still tries.

George M. Middius wrote:

AZ Nomad said:


Microsoft's philanthropy is legendary. If you count giving free software
as philanthropic then, in terms of pure numbers, they are by far the
most generous corporation in America today.

So were most of the most evil barons of the 19th century. Do you have
a point? How does billyboy's philanthropy have the slightest to do with
microsoft's evil activities?


Schizo just likes to change the subject at random. He's not psychotic enough
to impress Krooger with his "debating trade" skills, but he still tries.

Georgie, please do correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you the first
one to launch an unilateral, unprovoked, vitriolic attack on Microsoft?

;-)

Schizoid Man wrote:

George M. Middius wrote:

Schizo just likes to change the subject at random. He's not psychotic
enough
to impress Krooger with his "debating trade" skills, but he still tries.

Georgie, please do correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you the first
one to launch an unilateral, unprovoked, vitriolic attack on Microsoft?

;-)

And not one shred of evidence from you or AZ Nomadman supporting your
claims.

Schizoid Man said:

Schizo just likes to change the subject at random. He's not psychotic enough
to impress Krooger with his "debating trade" skills, but he still tries.

Georgie, please do correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you the first
one to launch an unilateral, unprovoked, vitriolic attack on Microsoft?

I doubt that. People have been cursing Microsoft since before I started
using computers.

Schizoid Man said:

And not one shred of evidence from you or AZ Nomadman supporting your
claims.

I didn't make a claim. I took a guess you're bipolar. Is that what annoyed
you?

George M. Middius wrote:

Schizoid Man said:

And not one shred of evidence from you or AZ Nomadman supporting your
claims.

I didn't make a claim. I took a guess you're bipolar. Is that what annoyed
you?

No. I believe in the magnanimous and altruistic core of corporate
America and the prosperity it brings.

And as we all know, prosperity means peace. Therefore I am deeply
offended when someone airs a fairly ignorant opinion.

Did I already tell you about the napalm fire?

"John P Reber" wrote in message
news:1118326785.a511c59a258d8ad039355c90332694da@t eranews...
I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?

With the Yamaha RX-V1, which had misfiring protective cutoffs. It has become
increasingly common.

These units are so complex, they are prone to design mistakes that require
recalls.
Once recalled and serviced, they are good-as-new, but the manufacturers do
not wish to be threatened by lawsuits alleging misrepresentation of "used"
as "new." IMHO, it's an irrelevant distinction.

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:09:23 -0700, Schizoid Man wrote:


Schizoid Man wrote:

George M. Middius wrote:

Schizo just likes to change the subject at random. He's not psychotic
enough
to impress Krooger with his "debating trade" skills, but he still tries.

Georgie, please do correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you the first
one to launch an unilateral, unprovoked, vitriolic attack on Microsoft?

;-)

And not one shred of evidence from you or AZ Nomadman supporting your
claims.

Oh puleeze. How about quantity discounts to companies that bundled windows
that charge them for every computer wether or not it had windows? It meant
that a computer with any other operating system charged the user for both
windows and the other OS. How about companies being denied discounts if
they sold any other OS? Or developers being denied vital system information
if they refused to sign a agreement that they wouldn't develop for any other
os? Even IBM agreed to dump OS/2 in order to get the same price for including
windows on their computers that every other maker received.

This is common knowledge. Pull your head out of your ass and do a web
search.

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:09:23 -0700, Schizoid Man wrote:
Oh puleeze. How about quantity discounts to companies that bundled windows
that charge them for every computer wether or not it had windows? It meant
that a computer with any other operating system charged the user for both
windows and the other OS.

That is pure ********. If I order a machine from Dell with Linux on it,
I pay a Windows premium? LOL!


How about companies being denied discounts if
they sold any other OS?

What's the big deal with that? I've heard a million stories where Coke
employees were spotted drinking Pepsi or vice versa and subsequently fired.

Did you know the reason that you can't order AMD-based PCs from Dell's
website because of an exlcusive marketing deal that they have with Intel?

Or are you about to argue against promoting one's own product?

Or developers being denied vital system information
if they refused to sign a agreement that they wouldn't develop for any other
os?

Oh really? I suppose software houses like IBM, HP, Adobe, EA, Macromedia
don't develop software on any other platform but Windows. I honestly did
not know that.

Even IBM agreed to dump OS/2 in order to get the same price for including
windows on their computers that every other maker received.

IBM dumped OS/2 because it failed to catch on in the market. Perhaps you
didn't know that OS/2 was originally born out of a collaboration between
Microsoft and IBM.

This is common knowledge. Pull your head out of your ass and do a web
search.

What is common knowledge is that every company has their own strongarm
tactics - Intel, Dell, Microsoft. Heck, even Coke does it.

What you should do is crawl back into whatever communist/socialist hole
you climbed.

Schizoid Man wrote:

What you should do is crawl back into whatever communist/socialist hole
you climbed.

climbed out of, that is.

George Middius wrote:

Joseph O'Blather said:


The fact is that if a company makes it, the warranty should
be just as valid no matter where you buy it, as long as
it's new and has the warranty cards in it. That would be
like GM saying that their cars have no warranty or support
because you bought it in Canada.



Boy, you can certainly generate some steam when you get irritated.

Unfortunately for you, commodities and warranties don't mix too well. A warranty
is a service and it's certainly reasonable for manufacturers to base them on the
entire business model.

You could make a better case for distinguishing between point-of-sale warranty
coverage and manufacturer-direct coverage.

It's just another arbitrary rule by Denon to force us to pay
more. It's not an illegal cone, just it was sold in a different
country for a lot less money(note - the warranty is just as
valid overseas)

A better analogy would be if you bought your Mercedes in
Europe and brought it over to the U.S., then when you
took it in for servicing, they told you they can't touch
it as it wasn't a "real" Mercedes.

John P Reber wrote:
I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found lots
of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?



remove nospam from address for direct reply.

Are you suspicious that so many Tenons are available refurbished because
so many were brought back for refunds because they were defective? And
that if you buy one that defect may not have been fixed so you will have
purchased a known lemon? Good reasoning! There may be some other reason
for the many Denon refurbs online, but I ran a stereo storefront from
1980 to 2003, before becoming a home based business, and that was a
pattern I saw many times.
Several years ago I was a dealer for Denon car stereo and the failure
rate was incredibly high. I have a friend who sells and installs AV
equipment. Although he loves the sound of Denon CD players he will not
sell one to customers because he has had such difficulties getting his
personal player fixed.

Wylie Williams
www.speakerandsterostore.com
314-692-2230

Wylie Williams wrote:
John P Reber wrote:

I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found
lots of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?



remove nospam from address for direct reply.


Are you suspicious that so many Tenons are available refurbished because
so many were brought back for refunds because they were defective? And
that if you buy one that defect may not have been fixed so you will have
purchased a known lemon? Good reasoning! There may be some other reason
for the many Denon refurbs online, but I ran a stereo storefront from
1980 to 2003, before becoming a home based business, and that was a
pattern I saw many times.
Several years ago I was a dealer for Denon car stereo and the failure
rate was incredibly high. I have a friend who sells and installs AV
equipment. Although he loves the sound of Denon CD players he will not
sell one to customers because he has had such difficulties getting his
personal player fixed.

Wylie Williams
www.speakerandsterostore.com
314-692-2230

Whoops, my bad typing skills are revealed again. In the previous post I
misspelled my own website name. It's www.speakerandstereostore.com

Wylie Williams

M$ has a right to engage in any deals it wants. It's still possible to
buy a PC with no Bill Tax. The problem is very few consumos want to,
and of those that do, they really are intent on putting bootleg M$
software on it.

I hold Windows and Office in as total contempt as anyone, but the
problem isn't that it is rammed down people's throats. American
consumos and small and medium businesses will use nothing else, because
they really are very lazy and not all that bright.

Wylie Williams wrote:

John P Reber wrote:

I was poking around on the internet for a Denon AVR-3805, and found
lots of them on ebay and ubid, that are refurbished.

Why are their so many refurbished units? Is there a problem with the
AVR-3805, that so many have to be sent back to the factory?



remove nospam from address for direct reply.


Are you suspicious that so many Tenons are available refurbished because
so many were brought back for refunds because they were defective? And
that if you buy one that defect may not have been fixed so you will have
purchased a known lemon? Good reasoning!

This is nonsense, though. "Buy a U.S. market model or it's going
to explode" Do you honestly think the Denon they sell in Taiwan
or Australia or wherever is going to be faulty? They buy these for
cheap, ship them over, and sell them as "refurbished". It's a bit
dishonest, but technically it is a new Denon with no warranty, just
like the refurbished ones you can sometimes get directly.