I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

Hi,
generally cable splicing causes a lot of problems, as I daily experience.To
troubleshoot the connection between the receiver, you have to be certain
that it's a whole length of speaker cable, not definitely $5/ft. oxygen free
cable.Probably in radio shack you can find some cheap speaker cable (30 cent
a meter would do).If it were mains wiring I would suggest you hired an
electrician, but here the worse could be the receiver relays clicking off
load.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
? "glw82664" ?????? ??? ??????
ups.com...
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an old
pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite speakers
on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about 30 feet of
wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers. Yesterday, I moved the
receiver to a room farther away and had to splice in about an extra 20
feet of wire. There are actually three splices in each wire now due to
obstacles and such. Now, when I turn up the volume to even a moderate
level the receiver stops transmiting the signal and starts clicking. I
presume the extra wire I added is the problem. The wire I have been
using, with success in other parts of the house, is using a load of
telephone line that I came in to for free. It has eight wires in each run
so I split 4 positive and 4 negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I
have checked, re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I
am using. Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the
money I'm just looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

14 AWG should be fine for a 30' run with 8 ohm speakers. 12 AWG would be
better. Lamp cord is fine. Don't waste money on expensive crap like
Monster cable. BUT, if you run wires inside walls or in conduit, make sure
you use wire that is properly rated for that use.

There's a chart showing cable loss over distance at various wire gauge &
speaker impedance at the Yorkville site. Look about 1/3 of the way down
this page:
http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=17&p_id=26

Check it with an ohmmeter. You may not actually have a good connection.

I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Did you forget a decimal point in front of those numbers?

-John O

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4 strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the total
resistance of the wire.

Now, you're claiming 2-4 dB per splice, let's take the middle
and say 3 dB. That means half the power is lost in the splice.
That would ONLY be true if the load impedance were on the order
of 0.005 ohms, which I suspect is NOT the case.

Assuming a nominal 8-ohm load, the 0.005 ohms added would result
in 0.0054 dB TOTAL.

Either I'm REAL good at making splcies, or you're REAL bad at making
splices.

In any case, I have seen an untold number of people splice speaker
wire by simply stripping and twisting everything together, which
makes a very effective short circuit on the amplifier. I'd bet
a nickel that we'd find something not unlike this here.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
.net...


glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


S-T-U-P-I-D.


Cheers,

Margaret

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:58:07 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end...
3 dbm per RF connector PAIR at microwave frequencies was a *rule of
thumb* I was taught in the US Navy. We were always supposed to
'calibrate' the cable before taking a critical power level measurment.
I can't believe that rule would apply to audio frequencies in any way.

Sounds like the OP has a bad splice (or 2) or has mixed up the
pairing.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org

glw82664 wrote:
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring.
I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for
satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine
having run
about 30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the
speakers.

Shouldn't be a problem.

Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and
had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are
actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now,
when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops
transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Odds are good that one or more of the splices is shorting
out.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.

More likely - one of the the splices is shorting.

The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I
came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4
positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.

However, it might not be all copper.

I have checked,
re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are
correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the
wire I am
using.

Frankly, a longer cable run should make the receiver less
sensitive to the speaker load.

Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending
the
money I'm just looking for ideas here.

Well, 12 guage cable is pretty cheap - under $0.50 a foot at
one of the home improvement centers for fine-stranded 12
gauge 2 conductor low voltage wire. I paid about $50 for 250
feet, list time I needed some.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.

Good advice.

Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.
The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.

I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?

If they were well-made splices, there would be no loss at
all. By well-made I mean soldered and taped. Or nicely done
with wirenuts or other proper solderless connector.

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Not in this life. If you do the splice well the loss is
absolutely positively negligable. If you do it badly enough
to have appreciable loss, then the splice will probably fall
the rest of the way apart by itself, pretty quickly.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Huh??!?!?

Are you assuming he spliced it with Elmer's glue?

-jc

Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)

In article . com writes:

speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Adding an extra 20 feet of wire wouldn't cause that, but a short or
open at a splice might. Check your splices first. For a 50 foot run at
normal household volume, #16 or even #18 wire will work fine. Go to
Home Depot, buy 100 feet of #16 "zip" cord, cut it in half, and you'll
have decent speaker cables. Make sure you know which is right and
which is left, and identify the polarity so you'll hook + on the
amplifier to + on the speaker.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

glw82664 wrote:
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.

This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
he
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.

I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

As I said, your total wire gauge is probably marginal, but that
wouldn't
cause the effect you're seeing. As others have said, it's probably
a bad splice or a short, although you seem to imply that it's both
speakers
and that would be a really weird coincidence. Did you check with an
ohmmeter to see if there was any short between the wires.

Of course, don't discount the fact that you may have damaged something
else in the process. Try:
- switching which outputs go to your external speakers
- moving the speakers back inside and see if they still work
when they're close.

The only other thing I can think of is that you might have introduced
a left/right channel short somewhere in the wiring. This might
cause odd behavior as you increase the volume.

-jc

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Two suggestions:

1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.

ric wrote:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Two suggestions:

1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.

Good points.

This man is probably clipping the signal as the receiver
tries to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
splices. Places like Home Depot and Lowe's have 12 AWG
low-voltage wire for use with outdoor lighting systems that
is ideal for making long cable runs to speakers located as
yours are. The wire is fairly cheap and is available in 100
and 50 foot lengths.

Another option, since a good receiver should not behave as
he indicated (assuming that the splices are good), is to get
a more robust receiver, but still change to that
continuous-length wire.

Howard Ferstler

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Yoiks. I have done a lot of wire connecting over the years
and have never seen that kind of power cut due to splicing.

Howard Ferstler

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require. It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts. A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

Howard Ferstler

mc wrote:
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone
wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of
your 4 wires
is (approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them
together, they
may be close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't
have the
current carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if
many very
tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate
strands (of
the correct total cross sectional area) are better than a
single
wire.

Unfortunately, yetther old wife's tale.

(1) Speaker cables aren't generally large enough to have
appreciable losses in the audio band due to skin effect.

(2) Stranding the wire doesn't reduce the diameter of the
conductive part of the wire. Even insulating them makes no
difference, because skin effect is based on magnetic
coupling, not conductivity.

On 6/6/05 10:32 AM, in article , "mc"
wrote:


I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Methinks legs are being pulled here??
Bg

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:32:23 -0400, mc wrote:


I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire really isn't
suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current
carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at
the periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.

**Possible, but extremely unlikely.

A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.


I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Huh? If every splice in a wire had a resistance of a few ohms, our houses
would burn down. Think about the number of splices between you and the
power generating plant.

A soldered splice has no more resistance than an unbroken wire. A good
tight solderless splice can also be very good.

If you are losing 2 to 4 dB per splice, adopt a different splicing
technique! Or are you thinking of VHF cables where there is an unavoidable
impedance mismatch? That doesn't apply at audio frequencies.

Agent 86 wrote:

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.

Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!

My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire.
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at
the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...

I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using multiple strands.

Trevor Wilson wrote:


**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.

I would tend to agree. But the problem isn't with splices, in general.
The problem here is likely how the "splices" were made. I have never had
a problem with splices. A speaker cable with 50 "proper" splices would
make no difference.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?

Why not?


Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

BULL!

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:18:15 -0500, Joe Sensor wrote:

Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!

Maybe not the best way to say it? Try this...

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with 1 strand (solid wire). The OP
mentioned 14 AWG, so we'll go with that. A solid piece of 14 AWG wire will
have a certain current carrying capacity, and also a certain resistance
and impedance for a given length. If you're going to permanently install
it from your house to your deck, It'll do fine.

If you need to move it around from time to time (get your speakers out of
the snow, for instance), you probably want something a bit less stiff. So
you run down to Home Depot (or Radio Shack, or Best Buy, or Tweeter) & get
some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.

But the OP made his *approximately* 14 gauge wire from only 4 strands of
telephone wire. Since circles don't fit together very well, there's gonna
be a lot of air space in the middle. Again, it's not the air that's
important, it's the metal that's *not* in there, because it's the metal
that carries the juice (lightning notwithstanding).

Joe Sensor wrote:
Agent 86 wrote:

Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded
cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a
pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly
good
conductor.

Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this
mean?

It probably means we've got someone who seems to be confused
with how wire is specified. Wire is specified in terms of
actual area of conductor. Any air between the individual
conductors in a stranded bundle doesn't count.

This means that a standed wire bundle might be a little
larger in diameter than the corresponding solid wire.

And there would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!

Agreed.

It's common mistake to believe that stranding wire does
something about skin effect. It doesn't. Skin effect is a
magnetic effect. As long as there is magnetic coupling
between the strands, the skin effect is about the same. That
means that stranding the wire does nothing to affect skin
effect, and neither does insulating the strands from each
other.

A true low skin effect wire deals with the magnetic effects
by either making the conductor in the shape of a tube, or
winding the strands of stranded wire around an non-magnetic
core. Plastic has been used for the core material of
low-skin-effect wire. However, increasing the diameter of
the conductor usually increases the inductance of the wire
unless the wire is coax. Inductance of speaker cables can be
a larger source of losses than skin effect.

The good news is that skin effect just isn't a problem at
regular audio frequencies. It's not going to diminish the
sheen of cymbals, etc. Unless the speakers have very low
impedance, inductance isn't much of a problem, either.

Agent 86 wrote:

some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.

This must be one of those schoolboy mathematics exercises:
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.

I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.

If you want 100% copper in your multi-strand wire you must fill the gaps
with even smaller strands and sell it for $thousands per metre.

--
Eiron.

Joseph Oberlander writes:

glw82664 wrote:

I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?

I would expect three splices to work properly when splices
are properly done. Soldering, reliable crimp type connections,
screw terminals and good quality connectors are proven ways
to splice pices of cables together.

If you have mande bad splices, then things can break there.

Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.

Where did you get those numbers?
They do not hold true.
A properly done wire splices make very little loss.
It is avery small fraction of ohms in resistance,
typically in milliohms or test of milliohms range.
And the volume loss is definatly below fraction of decibel.
The effect of properly made splice is less than the effect
of few meters of speaker cable!

If the splice had 2-4 dB of loss, it would be a really bad
splice and heat up very much in the use, because it would
in this case loose around half of the power amplifier is
sending out! Your claim is just proven NOT to be true!

Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver.

Those will not add up any noticeable load on the receiver!

Splicing bad.

Spilcing is bad for system reliabity. More splices you have
in your system, the more propable is that some day one of them fails.
The other effects of properly done splices on audio speaker wires
are neglectable!

I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.

I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do.

This is true.

Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)


--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

wrote:


Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4 strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the total
resistance of the wire.

Maybe I am off a decimal place. OTOH, if your amp did
what it did, you have a short somewhere and it kicked in
its protection circuit.

(checks) Ah. 2-4db is for radio/TV. So it would be a
small percentage for audio.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.


Good advice.


Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.

The look like it, but in terms

of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.


I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.

Which brings up my second point in that sentance. 4 or 8
little wires with insulation added is larger than most
electrical wire that you are trying to emulate.

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


An afterthought - did not the OP say he was using phone cable - and
combining 3 pairs into one to reduce resistance? Pound to a penny he's
crossed a pair in a splice somewhere and created a short. My advice would
be to buzz the cables through to check this out.

Chas

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


I tend to agree, without being on the spot.

Chas

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
wrote:


Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to
a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an
experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4
strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any
crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such
contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it
together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result
with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the
total
resistance of the wire.

Maybe I am off a decimal place.

You're off more than 2 decimal places, almost 3.

OTOH, if your amp did
what it did, you have a short somewhere and it kicked in
its protection circuit.

(checks) Ah. 2-4db is for radio/TV.

No, its off so far that there is no excuse.

So it would be a small percentage for audio.

Like good amplifiers, good splices have no audible effects.
;-)