Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

What are the students supposed to glean from the meters in regards to
running sessions?
If they can;t deal with LED's what are they going to misread with VU meters
which require knowledgable interpretation of what they indicate?
Maybe a set of the large DORROUGHS would be more helpful?



On 5/15/05 12:06 AM, in article
, "Announcer"
wrote:

Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

Announcer wrote:

Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
practical use - what would that achieve ?

Small led ladders are the norm now.

Maybe you should give your students eye tests ? Or even teach them *not*
to ignore the led meters. Is that *really* too hard ? Are students really
that intellectually challenged these days ? I'd have *loved* to have fast
peak reading led meters around when I was a student.

Graham

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy


Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
in watching their levels.

Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
Compellor is needed on the mixers output.

The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
processing.

TimPerry wrote:

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
in watching their levels.

I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging' whenever
they're in shot.


Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
Compellor is needed on the mixers output.

The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
processing.

Alternatively you could try to teach those students some skills ! Unless that's
too radical or controversial a concept ?

Graham

"Announcer" wrote ...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Knock their grade down by 1/2 step for each occurence of
clipping. Might sharpen their concentration.

Giving them a crutch of a larger display is just teaching them to
be lazy. I wouldn't hire any of your graduates if that is how you
are teaching them. You can tell them what the sentiment is
"out here in the real world".

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.

"TimPerry" wrote:

[...] even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously lackadaisical
in watching their levels.



Bull****. Look at my sig.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

"Richard Crowley" wrote:

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.


Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Lorin David Schultz wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote:

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.

Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

Not so actually.

Graham

Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?

Small led ladders are the norm now.

Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that do not have a defined
overload or "clipping" point, such as analog tape.

Digital is different. You need metering that responds "instantly" and shows the
exact clip point.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?

Small led ladders are the norm now.

Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that
do not
have a defined overload or "clipping" point, such as
analog tape.

Digital is different. You need metering that responds
"instantly" and
shows the exact clip point.

Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.

Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.

True with respect to clipping, but I'd like something that gives an indication
of overall level.

Bill
If you are hell-bent intent on having Virtually Useless metering on your
Mackie outputs, then at least ensure they are each driven by a unity-gain
buffer (with low Z o/p) and the compulsory series resistor.
Do *not* attach the VU Meter + 3k6 directly - as it places a non-linear
rectifier bridge across the audio it is measuring. Ugh!

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy


I would like to place this kind of meters to my setup just for fun. and to
follow actual loudness
of material I work with. I am sure not to clip but this nothing to do with
it. Is there cheapo solution
for this? dont need to put the meter on signal path since I have pair of
control-out free.
because some VU meter has pretty slow attack and even slower release its
nice to follow this kind of specs of audio as well.

..jukka

The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
too. We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still believes
that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the courses
I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

Bill Brophy

Announcer wrote:

The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
too. We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still believes
that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the courses
I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

Ok - how about mounting them in a simple wooden box like this. That can be
easily placed in the sight line.

http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/pr...oductid=57-902

Scary price for a pair of powered PPMs though.

Graham

Just a hard habit to break I guess.

But a good one. I've never seen a digital recorder whose display was limited to
one clipping light per channel!

The point about gain structure is well-taken. You can't understand that unless
you have some sort of wide-range display, be it VU or LED.

If simple VU meters are not telling you enough about analogue levels....
The Studer stereo recorder B67 had a meter/cct-switching bridge (option)
above the rear of the deck having 2 large, lit VUs; just above each meter
was an overload red LED. The sensitivities and onsets of either device could
be adjusted by presets on their driver cards located inside a nest.
Possibly other Studer hardware used this eye-catching combination.
This add-on gave VUs an easily noticeable warning if you overdid it, and it
ran reliably from 20V-24V dc.

I used to line up O/Ls to strike at +0.3dB above peak level at 1kHz. The
tape itself had 4dB of headroom above Peak, anyway. Mind you, the desks had
proper A/B and M/S+20 dual PPMs and output levels were monitored
continually..
..

"J.A.A." wrote in message
...

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy


I would like to place this kind of meters to my setup just for fun. and to
follow actual loudness
of material I work with. I am sure not to clip but this nothing to do with
it. Is there cheapo solution
for this? dont need to put the meter on signal path since I have pair of
control-out free.
because some VU meter has pretty slow attack and even slower release its
nice to follow this kind of specs of audio as well.

.jukka

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
TimPerry wrote:

"Announcer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?


a quick and dirty way would be to position any recorder with sutible sized
meters just under (or over) the video mon, hook record inputs to the stereo
mix. use a D/A if available.

something like a tascam 122 casette would work.

Thanks in advance

Bill Brophy

Students and even "pro" radio and TV operators are notoriously
lackadaisical
in watching their levels.

I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging'
whenever
they're in shot.

unfortunatly too true in real life too... sometimes.



Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
processing handle it. If used for production something like an Aphex
Compellor is needed on the mixers output.

The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
processing.

Alternatively you could try to teach those students some skills ! Unless
that's
too radical or controversial a concept ?

Graham


the radio guys say that TV only notices audio when it isnt there.

teach them to run the board low so the commercials really stand out!

DAMN ... it sure would be nice if I knew how to TYPE!

Either that or I need to quit drinking!


No, It's the glasses ... I need to have my eyes checked again.

Brophy

"Announcer" wrote ...
The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
too.

That is perfect to train them to work in the real world.
Congratulations on setting up an excellent simulator of
real working conditions! :-)

We have a dbx comp/limiter on the outputs but that is no excuse
for not watching levels and setting levels properly. A compressor on
the output is nice but it does not solve all problems with poor levels
as someone suggested. I am an old school type of guy who still
believes
that VUs are a valuable tool especially with spoken word material
because it shows average. What's wrong with a big ass meter showing
the
over-all output level in a good sight line? Trust me ... in the
courses
I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it
apparent
to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
importatnt looking meters to show them the levels.

But then what happens when they have to go out and work in the
Real World(TM) where all they have is LED ladders that "aren't
big enough or important enough to get proper attention"? Seems
to me that the training is to use *the equipment at hand* to produce
the best sound possible.

I came from the radio business where the VU meters were in the
most important position on most consoles. Just a hard habit to
break I guess.

Maybe you *are* projecting the preferences you formed when you
were learning equipment of that era. I know the feeling. There
were no LED "meters" around when I started, either. But I learned
first-hand that those old meters don't cut it in the digital world.

"Announcer" wrote ...
The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all.

If I wanted a visual aid for riding levels, I'd use a laptop with
Audacity (free at http://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/) or
a similar application that shows the audio envelope on-screen.
Useful either in real-time, or after-the-fact for reviews (or "post-
mortems") of projects/programs, etc.

You can show them what samples of commercial TV look like
and then their own stuff. They can see for themselves what the
problems are practically in a single glance.

Lorin David Schultz wrote:

Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to
zero will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.


"Pooh Bear" wrote:

Not so actually.


That's it? Care to elaborate on why you're declaring my statement
erroneous?

My experience with the Mackie, especially the SR series, is that it
starts making unpretty sound once it gets past the green lights. A
"proper" meter is going to correlate 0 to +4dBu, which is already 4dB
past the Mackie's safe zone. Add VU ballistics to the equation and the
Mackie is going to be huffing and puffing by the time that mechanical
meter reaches 0.

So I say "is so!" So THERE! g

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Announcer wrote:
Our university TV studio has a Mackie SR 24 console. I would like to
see some large ... really large VU meters added to the output of the
console since students seem to ignore the small LED ladders on the
console. I would like to do this on the cheap. Maybe figuring out how
to salvage some VU meters from some old gear and use them for this.
What would I need to do to accomplish this? Any suggestions?

Get large VU meters. Put them on the output of the console. Make
sure they are bridged with a 600 ohm load.

But don't believe them... the Mackie doesn't like driving normal levels
and you really want something that reads 20 dB higher than reality.

I suppose a Dorrough is out of the question? The problem is that most
gear doesn't have real VU meters any more, so there's nothing to salvage
any longer unless you go _way_ back. And a Simpson VU meter movement
is something like $180 now.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Pooh Bear wrote:
Lorin David Schultz wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote:

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.

Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

Not so actually.

Try it. Starting around -20dB on the meter, the console starts sounding
funny. You have a range of something like 25 dB between clipping and
the beginning of some glassy distortion. One of the secrets to getting
good sound out of the Mackies is to keep levels way down.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Go to www.jameco.com and check out their Part # 313904
"LED VU Meter Kit"

On 5/15/05 12:46 AM, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:


Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
practical use - what would that achieve ?

Oy... HUGELY useful... But that'll be another pointless thread..



Small led ladders are the norm now.

With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...

On 5/15/05 1:24 AM, in article ,
"TimPerry" wrote:


Other then standing behind them with a club you must let your audio
processing handle it.

Goldener Words I know not of.

Give em real VU meters calibrated to 0VU = -20 relative to clipping/0dBfs
and metal contacts on the board arm rests and seat so when they actually
hit -6dBfs they get 30hz modulated off an ignition coil


If used for production something like an Aphex
Compellor is needed on the mixers output.

The Compellor generally will improve the performance of the on air
processing.

\Before you hit the Compellor, you need headroom-assured through the chain.

On 5/15/05 4:05 AM, in article tpDhe.116398$3V3.18297@edtnps89, "Lorin David
Schultz" wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote:

As others have mentioned if you mean literally old d'Arsonval
mechanical meters, you likely don't really want to do that in this
modern age because LED displays are so much faster, etc.


Particularly on a Mackie, since driving a mechanical VU meter to zero
will be driving the mixer into making grunting noises.

Are you folks REALLY trying to hang real VU meters right across the line???
Like since 1980? Like BUFFER AMP dude, with like a calibration trim...

On 5/15/05 6:21 AM, in article , "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Since VU meters are useless (too slow-responding) for
almost any practical use - what would that achieve ?

Small led ladders are the norm now.

Good point. VU meters make sense with recording media that
do not
have a defined overload or "clipping" point, such as
analog tape.

Digital is different. You need metering that responds
"instantly" and
shows the exact clip point.

Experience shows that a simple clip light gets the job done.

Driving a source that'll do 12V AC into an ignition coil...

"SSJVCmag" wrote ...
With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...

Good. The people behind some of the audio I've heard on TV
at times need a good dose of fright.

On 5/15/05 11:26 AM, in article
, "Announcer"
wrote:

The problem I have (IS) with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all.
(SNIP) I am an old school type of guy who still believes
that VUs are a valuable tool

OK, with this in mind...

What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
over-all output level in a good sight line?

Nothing really, and in this case, I'd say slap the meter AFTER the comp and
then ENFORCS the idea of 'Levels Always Living -5 to +2' and dock-em when
they goof. Hell, Mutual aRadio actually WORKED this way in its later
years... You goof up engineering on-air and you'd get docked days/pay for
it. INANE for real world (actually INCREASED the probability of screw-ups)
but in a SCHOOL situation... Great.


Trust me ... in the courses
I teach I hit my students hard about proper levels and proper gain
structure. I just think that the meters on the Mackie are not big
enough or important enough to get attention. I want to make it apparent
to these beginning students that levels are important by giving them
importatnt looking meters to show them the levels. I came from the
radio business where the VU meters were in the most important position
on most consoles. Just a hard habit to break I guess.

And NOT a bad one. Do you spend at least a week doing hands-on demos with
normal and tough dynamic material with everybody watchinmg simultaneously a
Dorroughs, a real VU and a truly fast digital peak meter? It's a hell of a
great workshop and if you include Bob Katz' treatise on levels, K-metering
and average-matched-monitoring levels throughout the course, you might crank
out some pretty spot-on grads!

On 5/15/05 10:25 PM, in article ,
"SSJVCmag" wrote:

Are you folks REALLY trying to hang real VU meters right across the line???
Like since 1980? Like BUFFER AMP dude, with like a calibration trim...


Hey! can this do anythign for ya??

http://sound.westhost.com/project55.htm

Richard Crowley wrote:

Knock their grade down by 1/2 step for each occurence of
clipping. Might sharpen their concentration.

Reminds me of something I saw a few years ago: a New York hot shot had
come to our regional-class studio (dragging three double-sided 5 foot
rolling cases of all his own outboard -- would have been easier to
disassemble our studio and ship it to him, but that's another story...)
for a local artist the lable was hoping to break nationally. I came in
for my intern shift, and one of the first things I noticed was a small
pile of dollar bills in the center of the SSL. Then later the assistant
engineer came to me with a five dollar bill, asking if I had any ones.
He told me, "Every time I make a mistake, he makes me pay him a dollar.
He say's that how he sharpens his assistants."

Announcer wrote:

What's wrong with a big ass meter showing the
over-all output level in a good sight line?

Absolutely nothing. That's how the big boys do it. (But usually the big
boys have the budget for Dorroughs...)

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 5/15/05 12:46 AM, in article , "Pooh Bear"
wrote:

Since VU meters are useless ( too slow responding ) for almost any
practical use - what would that achieve ?


Oy... HUGELY useful... But that'll be another pointless thread..



Small led ladders are the norm now.


With what response time? LED ladders with Somebody's Official Idea Of
Average or Something is a whole lot worse than real VU meters...
Real Peak Reading Leds SCARE people...


The LED meters on the Sound Devices mixers are pretty damn useful in
their combined peak/VU mode.

In article writes:

I've noticed that in every US film or TV series, the VUs are 'pegging' whenever
they're in shot.

Well, movies are better than ever. g

I happen to like VU meters a lot, but then I grew up with them and
learned how to use them in conjunction with digital peak meters. The
meters on a Mackie mixer have neither true VU response (to say nothing
of the scale) nor are they all that effective in displaying absolute
peak level.

None the less, it's better than no metering at all because the meter,
along with the physical position of the controls, gives you an
indication of the gain structure of the mixer, and to a certain
extent, of the system.

Someone on the Ampex mailing list was researching "eye candy" VU-like
meters for a client's project and didn't turn up very much. Real VU
meters aren't cheap. The students should learn about what they're
doing, and use the tools they have available.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article . com writes:

The problem I have with studets usually doesn't have to do with
clipping but with LOW levels or with not paying attention at all. Our
set-up is such that the audio levels on the mackie are in a poor sight
line for the operator to watch the meters and watch the video monitor
too.

You need to teach them two things:

1. Set the level right (which is not to say 1 dB short of clipping and
leave the setting alone unless it really needs changing.

2. Set the monitor volume to a comfortable level that's loud enough to
hear and pay attention to what's going on. If there's a significant
volume change, they'll hear it and can react accordingly to bring
the level back to where it should be. No need to look at the meter
when you can hear what's happening when you move a knob.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1116240641k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:

Someone on the Ampex mailing list was researching "eye candy" VU-like
meters for a client's project and didn't turn up very much. Real VU
meters aren't cheap. The students should learn about what they're
doing, and use the tools they have available.

WAIT! I got it!

Markertek sells a thing by one of the Japanese video gadget companies that
takes in two audio line and displays meters on an NTSC video output that
you can plug into a monitor (and you can overlay with the program video
as well). It's a couple hundred bucks, and it will let you make a meter
as large as the largest monitor in the control room.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

How about just using your ears????