Scott Dorsey has been the loudest voice I've heard extolling the virtues of
recording classical music with omni microphones. I was never a convert but
for exceptional circumstances.

Then I got a pair of DPA 4006's.

I'm a convert. Even without a Jecklin, a pair of omnis spread about a foot
apart above a wind ensemble concert in a good hall made a better recording
than I have ever walked out of a hall with.

Omnis capture everything, including the sound of the room. If the room
sucks, find another microphone. If the balance isn't right, find another
mic. If the concert sounds good in the 10th row, omni is for you.

I was recording in an unfamiliar hall, but the HVAC noise seems
significantly lower compared to my cardioids and hypercardioids. Can I
attribute that to the mics? or is it just a room artifact?

I double what Scott states.

If the room sucks, find another microphone.
If the balance isn't right, find another mic.

I would still say use the omnis just find a better location for the
mics
as they say in real estate, location is everything

dale

"JP Gerard" wrote in
:

Well to start with you got some NICE omnis...

And thank James Norman for that. I was the first to respond to his For
Sale posting. Look and sound brand new.

My only earlier experience was with multipattern Chinese condensers. Yes,
there is a difference. I finally really know what "un-hyped" sounds like.
Even my Schoeps aren't this smooth.

"dale" wrote in
oups.com:

If the room sucks, find another microphone.
If the balance isn't right, find another mic.

I would still say use the omnis just find a better location for the
mics as they say in real estate, location is everything

And omnis have more placement options. As there isn't a "backside" to
speak of, it just has to be in the right spot, not in some particular
direction.

But there are still times when you want just "this" and not "that", and a
hypercardioid or figure-8 is the only way to go.

Carey Carlan wrote:

I was recording in an unfamiliar hall, but the HVAC noise seems
significantly lower compared to my cardioids and hypercardioids. Can I
attribute that to the mics? or is it just a room artifact?

The mikes are now positioned closer to the source in order to get the same
room sound, so they are now farther away from the noise sources. You will
find with live concerts the audience noise is lower for the same reason.

But also, because the low frequency corner on the omnis is lower than
comparable cardioids, you often get more rumble just because it's able to
reproduce what's at the mike better down there.

The two effects balance one another out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Carey Carlan wrote in
. 191:

I was recording in an unfamiliar hall, but the HVAC noise seems
significantly lower compared to my cardioids and hypercardioids. Can
I attribute that to the mics? or is it just a room artifact?

Follow up. The HVAC was not quieter, just lower. There was almost no HF
content, but the LF content was tremendous as far down as my frequency
display would go (3 Hz).

I had to apply several passes of judicious noise reduction to remove it. I
couldn't just chop it off because I had percussion and low winds way down
there.

Carey Carlan wrote:
"JP Gerard" wrote in

Well to start with you got some NICE omnis...

And thank James Norman for that. I was the first to respond to his For
Sale posting. Look and sound brand new.

My only earlier experience was with multipattern Chinese condensers. Yes,
there is a difference. I finally really know what "un-hyped" sounds like.
Even my Schoeps aren't this smooth.

They will be if you get the omni capsules for them!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

carey - those 4006s are indeed very nice mics. glad you are enjoying
them.

Carey Carlan wrote:
Scott Dorsey has been the loudest voice I've heard extolling the
virtues of
recording classical music with omni microphones. I was never a
convert but
for exceptional circumstances.

Then I got a pair of DPA 4006's.

I'm a convert. Even without a Jecklin, a pair of omnis spread about
a foot
apart above a wind ensemble concert in a good hall made a better
recording
than I have ever walked out of a hall with.

Omnis capture everything, including the sound of the room. If the
room
sucks, find another microphone. If the balance isn't right, find
another
mic. If the concert sounds good in the 10th row, omni is for you.

I was recording in an unfamiliar hall, but the HVAC noise seems
significantly lower compared to my cardioids and hypercardioids. Can
I
attribute that to the mics? or is it just a room artifact?

Hey - I thought I was the one most loudly touting omnis for classical
recording... I guess I don't post here often enough! g

It's true, though, that omnis won't pick up wind or mechanical
vibration nearly as much as will directional mics. However, if there is
actual *acoustic* noise down in the LF area, omnis can sometimes pick
it up more than directional mics.

Omnis do have a "back side" though, so IMO placement is very critical.
Since HFs are strongest on-axis (and for 1/2" mics, it's not a subtle
difference), you can point them to overshoot things in the foreground
(wiry-sounding first violin chair, etc.) or pick up the woodwinds
better, etc. But below a few kHz, omnis are truly omni and this is one
reason they are so great.

The biggest difference is lack of proximity effect, and an even
response to all types of sounds, where cardioids will emphasize
percussive sounds (like from piano, xylophone, etc.)

Enjoy those 4006s - they're great mics.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrsonics.com

Carey Carlan wrote:
"dale" wrote in

oups.com:

If the room sucks, find another microphone.
If the balance isn't right, find another mic.

I would still say use the omnis just find a better
location for the
mics as they say in real estate, location is everything

And omnis have more placement options. As there isn't a
"backside" to
speak of, it just has to be in the right spot, not in some
particular
direction.

Depends on the omni. A larger-diameter omni like a
635-family mic definately has a back side. A 1/2" mic like
a 4007 or ECM 8000 is pretty darn non-directional, at least
until you start doing high frequency measurements with them.
The 4006 is somewhere in-between.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in news:L7udnTW8K53EBuLfRVn-
:

Carey Carlan wrote:

And omnis have more placement options. As there isn't a
"backside" to
speak of, it just has to be in the right spot, not in some
particular
direction.

Depends on the omni. A larger-diameter omni like a
635-family mic definately has a back side. A 1/2" mic like
a 4007 or ECM 8000 is pretty darn non-directional, at least
until you start doing high frequency measurements with them.
The 4006 is somewhere in-between.

So you agree. The more "omni" it is, the options you have.

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

Carey Carlan wrote:
My only earlier experience was with multipattern Chinese condensers.
Yes, there is a difference. I finally really know what "un-hyped"
sounds like. Even my Schoeps aren't this smooth.

They will be if you get the omni capsules for them!

Google search returns:

Scott Dorsey Dec 2 2002, 3:48 pm
Predrag Trpkov wrote:
OK, Schoeps mics rule (listened again to some Telarc classical CDs), but
what about Danish Pro Audio (Bruel&Kjaer) 4000 Series? Anybody compared
Schoeps MK41s to DPA 4006s (omni) or 4011s (cardioid)? Which would you
choose as your main (general purpose) pair? Is the fact that there's no
hypercardioid model in the DPA line strong enough reason to opt for
Schoeps?

They are different. I like the DPA omnis better than the Schoeps
usually,
but I like the Schoeps cardioids better and I like the ability to have
the
hypercardioid.

End quote.

I got the pair of DPA's used for about the price of two Schoeps new.
Couldn't pass that deal up.

I probably won't get omni capsules for the Schoeps (unless I get both the
MK2's and MK21's). I'll get the whole mic. There are too many times
when I want both at once. My '41s are the best spot mics I have.

On Mon, 9 May 2005 20:14:58 -0400, Carey Carlan wrote
(in article ) :

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

Carey Carlan wrote:
My only earlier experience was with multipattern Chinese condensers.
Yes, there is a difference. I finally really know what "un-hyped"
sounds like. Even my Schoeps aren't this smooth.

They will be if you get the omni capsules for them!

Google search returns:

Scott Dorsey Dec 2 2002, 3:48 pm
Predrag Trpkov wrote:
OK, Schoeps mics rule (listened again to some Telarc classical CDs), but
what about Danish Pro Audio (Bruel&Kjaer) 4000 Series? Anybody compared
Schoeps MK41s to DPA 4006s (omni) or 4011s (cardioid)? Which would you
choose as your main (general purpose) pair? Is the fact that there's no
hypercardioid model in the DPA line strong enough reason to opt for
Schoeps?

They are different. I like the DPA omnis better than the Schoeps
usually,
but I like the Schoeps cardioids better and I like the ability to have
the
hypercardioid.

End quote.

I got the pair of DPA's used for about the price of two Schoeps new.
Couldn't pass that deal up.

I probably won't get omni capsules for the Schoeps (unless I get both the
MK2's and MK21's). I'll get the whole mic. There are too many times
when I want both at once. My '41s are the best spot mics I have.

Then there are the Gefell m296 omnis. Really quite amazing. No ****!

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

I found the AKG 460B with circuit fixes to beat the B+K 4003's for
neutrality. The B+K's have a subtle metalic overtone the mylar capsule
doesn't. The Schoeps capsule is excellent, but the color of the
electronics masks that.

Most omni capsules are rather directional at high freqencies. This can
be desirable in some situations, why the M-50's are popular. I found
the 460 mated with the CK-22 side address omni capsule avoids this and
is pure omni up to 20k. Although designed for measurment, it solves the
HF directionality problem.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

wrote:

Most omni capsules are rather directional at high freqencies. This can
be desirable in some situations, why the M-50's are popular. I found
the 460 mated with the CK-22 side address omni capsule avoids this and
is pure omni up to 20k. Although designed for measurment, it solves the
HF directionality problem.

How does sidemounting an omni cap change its directional/nondirectional
properties?

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:
wrote:

Most omni capsules are rather directional at high freqencies. This can
be desirable in some situations, why the M-50's are popular. I found
the 460 mated with the CK-22 side address omni capsule avoids this and
is pure omni up to 20k. Although designed for measurment, it solves the
HF directionality problem.

How does sidemounting an omni cap change its directional/nondirectional
properties?

It depends on the grille. But the grille has a lot to do with the
pattern at high frequency.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 5/10/05 12:37 PM, in article
, "hank alrich"
wrote:

wrote:

Most omni capsules are rather directional at high freqencies. This can
be desirable in some situations, why the M-50's are popular. I found
the 460 mated with the CK-22 side address omni capsule avoids this and
is pure omni up to 20k. Although designed for measurment, it solves the
HF directionality problem.

How does sidemounting an omni cap change its directional/nondirectional
properties?

The Ck22 is an odd bird, inside the capsule is a diaphragm mounted pretty
normally like any screw-on capsule- Facing forwards along the axis of the
body,
but above the diaphragm is mounted an inverted metal cone,
point-towards-the-diaphragm, the base of which is attached to what otherwise
would be the 'front' of the mic capsule thus making the 'front' a solid
piece of metal (the BASE of the cone). Vents around the SIDE of the capsule
allow sound in. It's all incorporated into a perfectly normal looking
champagne-gold CK series capsule, until you notice the top of the mic is
solid metal.

One more follow up. Compared with directional microphones, don't forget to
set up MUCH closer to the group.