Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
so it seems the problem would still exist.

In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.


How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
mixes sound canned over time.

I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

Your thoughts welcome.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

Mike,
I have an old BBE 462 that I thought would help. It's just a bad
sounding band-aid that doesn't work very well for live sound. However,
it did help the high frequencies in the Shure IEMs we used. Other than
the IEM thing, I wouldn't waste the money on BBE stuff. Spend the money
on better sounding gear.

transmogrifa wrote:
Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
so it seems the problem would still exist.

The BBE process does add adjustable group delay, like the manual says.
But what really makes it work is that it adds high order even harmonics
to make things sound artificially bright.

In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.

Actually adding group delay isn't all that audible. You can try the
box from Little Labs that actually _does_ add group delay and allow you
to change this stuff. By itself, it doesn't make much of a difference
in sound.

How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
mixes sound canned over time.

I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

The BBE box is basically an exciter. The spectrum it produces is different
than the Aphex and Rolls boxes, but the general effect is the same. The
"True Dimensional Sound" gadget also does the same thing. You may want to
listen to the BBE box because it can be a useful alternative to the Aphex.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"transmogrifa" wrote in message ups.com...
Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
so it seems the problem would still exist.

In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.


How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
mixes sound canned over time.

I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

Your thoughts welcome.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com


I think that both the BBE and the Aphex boxes (not 'big-bottom', etc. but
the older, basic Aphex exciter boxes) are good tools to have in the kit. I
don't find them particularly useful in live sound applications, but I find both
of them have a number of handy uses in the studio on the ocassionally
poorly recorded track, or the track that simply needs a little something
to overcomes the lifelessness. EGs: When there have been too many
synth tracks used, a little BBE sometimes tends to act as an alignment
tool that can make an otherwise bland sounding patch become a little
more pleasing and fit better in the mix. The Aphex boxes, which as
Scott mentioned work differently by adding harmonics, are often cool
tools to bring life to a poorly recorded track of acoustic piano or acoustic
guitar. It's easy to over-use either box, which has it's own detrimental
result when the tracks are added together. I've been through the stage
of experimenting with both of these on a complete mix, with no joy... it
just doesn't accomplish anything that remains in the 'natural' category
that couldn't be done with a little more track by track work on the mix.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Scott Dorsey wrote:

...snip..

The BBE box is basically an exciter. The spectrum it produces is different
than the Aphex and Rolls boxes, but the general effect is the same. The
"True Dimensional Sound" gadget also does the same thing. You may want to
listen to the BBE box because it can be a useful alternative to the Aphex.
--scott


Yo Scott,

Do you know anything about the dbx project 1 "spectral enhancer"?
I found one in an "as is" bin for cheap (one broken switch) and I've
found it useful for some of my bluegrass festivals. Don't have a
clue exactly what it does but it's a different flavor than the Aphex
of BBE boxes (haven't heard the Rolls).

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Ron Capik wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

The BBE box is basically an exciter. The spectrum it produces is different
than the Aphex and Rolls boxes, but the general effect is the same. The
"True Dimensional Sound" gadget also does the same thing. You may want to
listen to the BBE box because it can be a useful alternative to the Aphex.

Do you know anything about the dbx project 1 "spectral enhancer"?
I found one in an "as is" bin for cheap (one broken switch) and I've
found it useful for some of my bluegrass festivals. Don't have a
clue exactly what it does but it's a different flavor than the Aphex
of BBE boxes (haven't heard the Rolls).

Nope, but it's probably something similar. A decade or so ago I did some
spectra on the BBE and the Aphex to settle a discussion here. The Rolls
came out since then, and I think the dbx has too.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"transmogrifa" wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay. So I have been giving this BBE process thingy soome thought.
Supposedly speaker inductance delays frequencies by a progressive
amount as the frequency gets higher. BBE explains their process as a
correction so that you can hear music over a speaker as you do live.
One interesting conunudrum is that even live, you are usually hearing
the instruments over an array of speakers (guitar and bass amps and PA)
so it seems the problem would still exist.

In thinking about this it came to mind that at low frequencies the
cycle time in milliseconds is close to the time that a human can
recognize an actual delay. A 40 hz bass wave is a 20 ms cycle. So
there would already be a delay in recognition of a lower frequency
correct? Can anyone recall how long it takes to recognize frequency
audibly? Is it a whole cycle? or more or less. I can see how delaying
the bass might add clarity but seems like it could get wonky quick.


How many of you use some process to improve this or a similary process?
I have never used BBE because from listening to the difference between
a mix with it or one without I didn't see a positive difference and
even thought it was worse. I also figured it would end up making my
mixes sound canned over time.

I do sometimes use an exciter. I use to consider it sort of cheating
and assumed the client wanted to at least first hear the mix in its'
most natural state but for the most part that is wrong. Might as well
thrown in the fuzzy dice and the cheap gift wrapping.

Your thoughts welcome.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com


Here is a BBE directX plugin demo if you have software that supports directX
plugins that is! http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/.../lst?.dir=/BBE
It inserts a second of silence every 5 seconds into the process.

Mike,

BBE explains their process as a correction

That explanation is pure marketing BS. If Scott says the BBE box actually
includes group delay / phase shift I'll take that at face value. But there's
no way a generic box could compensate for all the different speaker models
and crossover frequencies that are out there. It's just not possible. And
why should adding phase shift make things "clearer" anyway? Obviously the
main effect is added grunge, which might be useful to add some top end to a
dull track or mix. But why does BBE feel they have to make up nonsense about
"correcting" loudspeakers?

--Ethan

Ron,

Do you know anything about the dbx project 1 "spectral enhancer"?

I had one of those years ago. It does not add distortion like BBE and Aphex.
As I recall it adds level-dependent treble boost to achieve a similar
effect.

--Ethan

Ethan Winer wrote:
Mike,


BBE explains their process as a correction


That explanation is pure marketing BS. If Scott says the BBE box actually
includes group delay / phase shift I'll take that at face value. But there's
no way a generic box could compensate for all the different speaker models
and crossover frequencies that are out there. It's just not possible. And
why should adding phase shift make things "clearer" anyway? Obviously the
main effect is added grunge, which might be useful to add some top end to a
dull track or mix. But why does BBE feel they have to make up nonsense about
"correcting" loudspeakers?

Well, if you accept that speakers have group delay that
increases with frequency (which I've no measurements to
corroborate) then a process which introduces group delay
that decreases with frequency (which I _have_ measured with
the BBE plugin) will in fact be doing a compensation. The
degree to which that compensation is a match to any given
speaker is a whole 'nuther matter.

I've played quite a bit with this business of pulling
transients out front of the stuff they stimulate via group
delay manipulation. I find that it does in fact increase
something I will call clarity even when listening on canal
phones with very light driver elements which it seems should
have a more constant group delay than a speaker system.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Bob,

Well, if you accept that speakers have group delay that increases with
frequency

Okay, but group delay is not a problem. The comb filtering that occurs in
the air from two drivers outputting the same content near the crossover
frequency is a problem. But that's a different issue, with no cure other
than a redesigned crossover.

I've played quite a bit with this business of pulling transients out front
of the stuff they stimulate via group delay manipulation.

How have you done that? Hardware? Software?

--Ethan

Ethan Winer wrote:

I've played quite a bit with this business of pulling transients out front

of the stuff they stimulate via group delay manipulation.

How have you done that? Hardware? Software?

Software. Matlab for making allpass filters with tailored
group delay and Adobe Audition to apply them. You can
generate the allpass by creating a group delay curve as a
function of frequency, taking the discrete derivative of it,
taking the IFFT of that with a flat magnitude function and
doing some judicious windowing. That yields an FIR which
can be convolved with material in Audition (Cool Edit Pro
back when I was playing with this.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message ....

You can
generate the allpass by creating a group delay curve as a
function of frequency, taking the discrete derivative of it,
taking the IFFT of that with a flat magnitude function and
doing some judicious windowing. That yields an FIR which
can be convolved with material in Audition (Cool Edit Pro
back when I was playing with this.)


Some of you guys just have too much free time...


;-)

Bob Cain wrote:


Ethan Winer wrote:

I've played quite a bit with this business of pulling transients out
front


of the stuff they stimulate via group delay manipulation.

How have you done that? Hardware? Software?


Software. Matlab for making allpass filters with tailored group delay
and Adobe Audition to apply them. You can generate the allpass by
creating a group delay curve as a function of frequency, taking the
discrete derivative of it,

Oops. Make that the discrete integral.

taking the IFFT of that with a flat magnitude
function and doing some judicious windowing. That yields an FIR which
can be convolved with material in Audition (Cool Edit Pro back when I
was playing with this.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein