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#1
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getting a better stereo image
I've made a few recordings of local bands with a Fostex
VF-160 hard disk recorder. I don't have ADAT capability, so I'm limited to the 8 non-ADAT channel inputs. I always use one ambience mic, and then combine things like drums and backround vocals onto unused aux and subgroup lines, and get lead vocals and individual instruments (bass, keys) from direct outs if they're available. (And, just out of curiosity, what good is a post-fader direct out?) When I mix down later, the recordings usually sound decent, but they don't have that big stereo image. When there are two guitars I can pan them fairly hard. When one is solo-ing, I move it closer to center and then back when the solo's done. I pan lead vocals some too (one of the bands I record has two lead vocals, I always pan those out). But I'm beginning to think it's the drums combined onto a single line like that (and then centered in mixdown) which most needs to be addressed. Kick and snare centered, with rack and floor toms spread out just like they are on the stage, and overheads panned hard? And what about the ambience? Should I always try to use two channels, panned hard? Are there any techniques I can use during mixdown (I'm using Audition) to get a better stereo image? I've thought of taking a single ambience channel and adding it to a delayed version of itself to create a "second" channel, or maybe using different reverb on two copies of the original track, or whatever. But I quickly run out of ideas when it comes to making a drum kit sound like it's in stereo when all the mics are running into the same aux line. With this type of a recording setup (having to combine instruments because of a channels shortage), is it better to try to improve the stereo image on the entire mix, rather than on individual channels? Thanks in advance for any tips. Fred |
#2
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Fred,
You should try everything you mentioned. Always experiment. Record drums in stereo. Record ambience in stereo. After all, if you are playing back a mono source, you won't get stereo imaging. For guitars, though it's up to the artists, I think it would be better to record left and right guitars on one pass, and record the solo on another pass, provided you have track space to do so. This way you won't hear any panning funkiness before and after the guitar solo. You can try panning two lead vocalists left and right, but I would tend to leave them either center, or very slightly off-center. Personal preference here. If you want larger-than-life stereo, you can put some reverb on stuff such as vocals and/or guitars. I just recorded some bluegrass with rhythm acoustic guitar, some overlayed acoustic guitar in the chorus, and a female vocalist. (There is more yet to track.) The microphones and preamps are good enough that it sounds good without reverb; however, I added a touch to add a little air to the vocals and rhythm guitar. I found that a short decay reverb (about 1 second in this case) works well for adding space without sounding obnoxious. I also apply a high-cut filter at about 3kHz or so to cut down on sibiliance 'verb. This makes the reverb less of a noticed sound and more of "that glow". To my ears, anyway. Play around. See what works. But get the drums in stereo! Good luck! "Fredbob Jackson" wrote in message ups.com... I've made a few recordings of local bands with a Fostex VF-160 hard disk recorder. I don't have ADAT capability, so I'm limited to the 8 non-ADAT channel inputs. I always use one ambience mic, and then combine things like drums and backround vocals onto unused aux and subgroup lines, and get lead vocals and individual instruments (bass, keys) from direct outs if they're available. (And, just out of curiosity, what good is a post-fader direct out?) When I mix down later, the recordings usually sound decent, but they don't have that big stereo image. When there are two guitars I can pan them fairly hard. When one is solo-ing, I move it closer to center and then back when the solo's done. I pan lead vocals some too (one of the bands I record has two lead vocals, I always pan those out). But I'm beginning to think it's the drums combined onto a single line like that (and then centered in mixdown) which most needs to be addressed. Kick and snare centered, with rack and floor toms spread out just like they are on the stage, and overheads panned hard? And what about the ambience? Should I always try to use two channels, panned hard? Are there any techniques I can use during mixdown (I'm using Audition) to get a better stereo image? I've thought of taking a single ambience channel and adding it to a delayed version of itself to create a "second" channel, or maybe using different reverb on two copies of the original track, or whatever. But I quickly run out of ideas when it comes to making a drum kit sound like it's in stereo when all the mics are running into the same aux line. With this type of a recording setup (having to combine instruments because of a channels shortage), is it better to try to improve the stereo image on the entire mix, rather than on individual channels? Thanks in advance for any tips. Fred |
#3
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Fredbob Jackson wrote:
I've made a few recordings of local bands with a Fostex VF-160 hard disk recorder. I don't have ADAT capability, so I'm limited to the 8 non-ADAT channel inputs. I always use one ambience mic, and then combine things like drums and backround vocals onto unused aux and subgroup lines, and get lead vocals and individual instruments (bass, keys) from direct outs if they're available. (And, just out of curiosity, what good is a post-fader direct out?) When I mix down later, the recordings usually sound decent, but they don't have that big stereo image. I had this problem too. Firstly, you can fake out stereo using reverb on a single channel. (A trick I picked up from Paul White's book 'Basic mixing techniques') Secondly, if throwing gear at the problem isn't an issue, try to get hold of an SPL Vitalizer. I use the 'Jack' edition which is cheap and cheerful.. the other versions have more control but are more expensive. I think the higher versions are still made, the Jack was apparently dropped but can be found on ebay. I paid 80 pounds sterling for mine and have no regrets whatsoever. The Vitalizer has a stereo enhancement feature which is fantastic at widening the stereo image. Obviously it won't work from a mono source, so you'll have to have some stereo panning in the mix. Using the reverb trick is a good way to 'feed' it mono signals, as well. If you're interested, I'll see if I can put together a short demonstration of the effect. Thanks in advance for any tips. Fred -- JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- Fun things to do with the Ultima games http://www.it-he.org Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB---- uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
#4
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You won't get a real stereo image by pan-potting lots of mono sources.
You get it by putting a stereo pair in front of the whole performance, in a good-sounding room. But I guess this isn't what you want. You want close-up micing, but an interesting degree of separation in a 2-dimensional field between the L and R speakers. For a start, a mono ambiance mic is only going to diminish any separation. Do you want the drum kit located in one position (for reality) or spread across the entire width (for effect)? |
#5
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"Fredbob Jackson" wrote:
With this type of a recording setup (having to combine instruments because of a channels shortage), is it better to try to improve the stereo image on the entire mix, rather than on individual channels? I have only one tip with respect to making single-channel sources sound like stereo: DON'T. Seriously. I mean it. If nothing else, most of them will bite you on the ass big-time when your mix is played back in mono. With limited channels, I *strongly* recommend going for an excellent MONO mix. One in a thousand listeners will notice that it's mono, whereas four out of five will notice cheesiness (or worse, swishing, washing phasiness). Balance between elements is WAY more important than spreading them around an artificial sound stage. Embrace the singularity. Be bold, be balanced, be mono. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#6
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"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message news:OQ4fe.39382$vN2.14133@clgrps13... "Fredbob Jackson" wrote: With this type of a recording setup (having to combine instruments because of a channels shortage), is it better to try to improve the stereo image on the entire mix, rather than on individual channels? I have only one tip with respect to making single-channel sources sound like stereo: DON'T. Seriously. I mean it. If nothing else, most of them will bite you on the ass big-time when your mix is played back in mono. With limited channels, I *strongly* recommend going for an excellent MONO mix. One in a thousand listeners will notice that it's mono, whereas four out of five will notice cheesiness (or worse, swishing, washing phasiness). Balance between elements is WAY more important than spreading them around an artificial sound stage. Embrace the singularity. Be bold, be balanced, be mono. Spoken like a true broadcast guy.... ;-) DM -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#7
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:
Spoken like a true broadcast guy.... ;-) LOL! Of course, I recommend the OP stick with a mono mix not because I prefer mono per se, but because I so often witness what happens when pseudo-stereo gets forced into mono in editing. Ick. Usually pretty nasty results. You know, it just pains me to deal with the realities of a typical TV station. There's no reason anything HAS to go to air in mono anymore, but it still happens anyway. Digital VTRs have four channels, but nobody uses the second pair because (a)we've been using two channel mono for as long as there have been video tape recorders and no one sees any reason to change now, (b)only the first two channels show up on the router in the control room (I can demux the second pair of any particular machine on an as-needed basis, but not all of them all the time) and (c)the edit suites still use stereo mixers with no convenient way for the editors to access the extra pair of channels. So, even with the tools to do better already in place, we don't. Mono compatibility is gonna be an issue for some time yet. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#8
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Experiment with your mic placement. What worked for me was setting up
the overhead mics in the center of the drumkit pointing outwards, rather than on the edges of the drumkit pointing inwards. This mimics 'the ears of the drummer' who has the drumset all around him, instead of 'the ears of the audience', with the drumkit somewhere in the middle. A regular XY setup also helps keeping the recording mono compatible. |
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