I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home theatre
receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for two channel in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping
but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or the
DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going on,
this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen would be
appreciated.

David

David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home theatre
receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for two channel
in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping
but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or the
DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going on,
this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen would
be
appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your CD
player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade performance.

My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.

still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home theatre
receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for two channel
in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping
but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or the
DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going on,
this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen would
be
appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your CD
player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade performance.

My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.

Where do you get that? An external DAC may or may not improve on a built-in
DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom". Many built-in DAC's
are cheap, cheap, cheap. A digital output going to a competently designed
DAC will probably sound noticeably better than many all-in-one units.

Mark Z.

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home theatre
receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for two channel
in the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping
but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or the
DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going on,
this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen would
be appreciated.

Clipping is not that uncommon on commmercial CD releases, so seeing
an indication of a few FS samples wouldn't be worth a second glance IME.
Rip a few of your favorite tracks and look at them on a computer. OTOH,
maybe you're better off not knowing.

Mark D. Zacharias Apr 28, 5:54 pm show options





- -

still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home
theatre
receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for two channel

in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping

but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or
the
DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going
on,
this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen would

be
appreciated.

------------------------------=AD------------------------------=AD---------=
---------------------=AD------------------------------=AD----



Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your CD

player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade
performance.


My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.



Where do you get that? An external DAC may or may not improve on a
built-in
DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom". Many built-in
DAC's
are cheap, cheap, cheap. A digital output going to a competently
designed
DAC will probably sound noticeably better than many all-in-one units.

Mark Z.
__________________________________________________ __________

That must be why so many CD players sound exactly like nearly every
other CD player. There's no such evidence that outboard, i.e., more
expensive DAC's are in any way audibly superior, to the ones that come
built in.

Ancedotes don't count.

still learning wrote:
Mark D. Zacharias Apr 28, 5:54 pm show options





- -

still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home
theatre receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for
two channel

in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible clipping

but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or
the DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going
on, this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen
would

be
appreciated.

------------------------------*------------------------------*------------------------------*------------------------------*----



Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your CD

player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade
performance.


My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.



Where do you get that? An external DAC may or may not improve on a
built-in
DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom". Many built-in
DAC's
are cheap, cheap, cheap. A digital output going to a competently
designed
DAC will probably sound noticeably better than many all-in-one units.

Mark Z.
__________________________________________________ __________

That must be why so many CD players sound exactly like nearly every
other CD player. There's no such evidence that outboard, i.e., more
expensive DAC's are in any way audibly superior, to the ones that come
built in.

Ancedotes don't count.

Says you.
I stand by my statement. Do you really believe, for example, that a 59.00
RCA 5-disc player made in China by Hu-Nos-Hu and sold at Walmart is really
going to have as good a D/A section as a big, heavy Denon from 1989 with
Dual Burr-Browns? Or that the digital output of this cheap player would not
sound better through an external DAC? Give me a break. I'm not saying I
could reliably tell the difference in an A/B test, but I sure as heck think
I could tell after living with one or the other for a while.

Mark Z.

Mark doesn't believe:

Says you.
I stand by my statement. Do you really believe, for example, that a
59.00
RCA 5-disc player made in China by Hu-Nos-Hu and sold at Walmart is
really
going to have as good a D/A section as a big, heavy Denon from 1989
with
Dual Burr-Browns? Or that the digital output of this cheap player
would not
sound better through an external DAC? Give me a break. I'm not saying
I
could reliably tell the difference in an A/B test, but I sure as heck
think
I could tell after living with one or the other for a while.

Mark Z.

Then you have things backwards, since it's easier to tell things apart
in a quick switch comparison than in a long term one.
If you can't tell the difference in a quick switch test, then for you
at least, there is no difference and no reason to spend the extra
money. BTW, big and heavy are not synonymous with better or even good.

Even in the unlikely event that you could tell them apart, it doesn't
mean the original poster could. This should be something to be
celebrated, since it means you can save some money and buy more music.

still learning wrote:
Mark doesn't believe:

Says you.
I stand by my statement. Do you really believe, for example, that a
59.00 RCA 5-disc player made in China by Hu-Nos-Hu and sold at
Walmart is really going to have as good a D/A section as a big,
heavy Denon from 1989 with Dual Burr-Browns? Or that the digital
output of this cheap player would not sound better through an
external DAC? Give me a break. I'm not saying I could reliably tell
the difference in an A/B test, but I sure as heck think I could tell
after living with one or the other for a while.

Mark Z.

Then you have things backwards, since it's easier to tell things apart
in a quick switch comparison than in a long term one.
If you can't tell the difference in a quick switch test, then for you
at least, there is no difference and no reason to spend the extra
money. BTW, big and heavy are not synonymous with better or even
good.

Even in the unlikely event that you could tell them apart, it doesn't
mean the original poster could. This should be something to be
celebrated, since it means you can save some money and buy more music.


Let me put it this way:

1. Wouldn't you rather have a nice CD player than a piece of crap?
2. Don't you suppose there's at least a chance the better built CD player
might sound better?
3. Don't you suppose a high-quality external DAC might possibly sound better
than the cheapest possible 1-chip DAC section of of the cheapest built CD
players in the world (which is exactly what this Chinese stuff is, for the
most part) ?

Mark Z.

Mark Z said:

Let me put it this way:

1. Wouldn't you rather have a nice CD player than a piece of crap?

That depends. I want a CD player to play CD's without any audible
artifacts of an kind. If I can get that from a $69.00 player, then I'm
likely to buy a $69.00 player.

2. Don't you suppose there's at least a chance the better built CD
player
might sound better?

Not based on any empirical evidence. The average CD player
irrespective of price, is flat to something like .03dB.



3. Don't you suppose a high-quality external DAC might possibly sound
better
than the cheapest possible 1-chip DAC section of of the cheapest built
CD
players in the world (which is exactly what this Chinese stuff is, for
the
most part) ?

I would only suppose that if I didn't already know better. For what
the typical DAC costs, I could probably buy several CD players that
sound exactly like every other CDplayer not designed to deviate from
flat response.

I'd ratther save for new speakers or buy more music or DVD's than waste
it on something that at best is likely to not sound any different, and
at worst, provide technically inferior sound, by deviating from flat.

still learning wrote:
Mark Z said:

Let me put it this way:

1. Wouldn't you rather have a nice CD player than a piece of crap?

That depends. I want a CD player to play CD's without any audible
artifacts of an kind. If I can get that from a $69.00 player, then
I'm likely to buy a $69.00 player.

2. Don't you suppose there's at least a chance the better built CD
player might sound better?

Not based on any empirical evidence. The average CD player
irrespective of price, is flat to something like .03dB.



3. Don't you suppose a high-quality external DAC might possibly
sound better than the cheapest possible 1-chip DAC section of of the
cheapest built CD players in the world (which is exactly what this
Chinese stuff is, for the most part) ?

I would only suppose that if I didn't already know better. For what
the typical DAC costs, I could probably buy several CD players that
sound exactly like every other CDplayer not designed to deviate from
flat response.

I'd ratther save for new speakers or buy more music or DVD's than
waste it on something that at best is likely to not sound any
different, and at worst, provide technically inferior sound, by
deviating from flat.

I'm a technical type, and I don't subscribe much to "golden ears" stuff,
but there is such a thing as better quality and worse quality, and that
extends to junky equipment as well. If a cheap, cheap, cheap player happened
by accident to sound as good or better than some piece that was designed
"better" that's exactly what it would be, an accident, not that a 25 cent el
cheapo DAC chip with essentially no filtering is even likely to sound even
close to a higher quality chip, never mind all the other support circuitry
in a quality standalone DAC.
You should see some of the junk I see working on this stuff for a living.
Sorry, but you're hopeless. Enjoy your crap.

Mark Z.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:13:18 GMT, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

Let me put it this way:

1. Wouldn't you rather have a nice CD player than a piece of crap?
2. Don't you suppose there's at least a chance the better built CD player
might sound better?
3. Don't you suppose a high-quality external DAC might possibly sound better
than the cheapest possible 1-chip DAC section of of the cheapest built CD
players in the world (which is exactly what this Chinese stuff is, for the
most part) ?


Let me put it this way:

You feel that expensive MUST be better.

You have forgotten that CD players, from the cheapest to the most
esoteric, tend to use the same basic mechanism, bought in from the
same supplier.

"Laurence Payne" wrote ...
Let me put it this way:

You feel that expensive MUST be better.

Some people just can't get over that assumption. Nothing you can
say (or demonstrate) will dissuade them of their delusion. They
will never comprehend the technology and economics of modern
monolithic integrated circuitry.

Thanks to everyone for the discussion. I believe the problem may be the
DAC output voltage of 3.5mv is a bit too hot for the receiver.
I remember Audio Alchemy had internal jumpers in their DAC to compensate
for just such conflicts. The DAC went back to it's owner. It won't be
replaced.

David

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Laurence Payne" wrote ...

Let me put it this way:

You feel that expensive MUST be better.


Some people just can't get over that assumption. Nothing you can
say (or demonstrate) will dissuade them of their delusion. They
will never comprehend the technology and economics of modern
monolithic integrated circuitry.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:13:18 GMT, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

Let me put it this way:

1. Wouldn't you rather have a nice CD player than a piece of crap?
2. Don't you suppose there's at least a chance the better built CD
player might sound better?
3. Don't you suppose a high-quality external DAC might possibly
sound better than the cheapest possible 1-chip DAC section of of the
cheapest built CD players in the world (which is exactly what this
Chinese stuff is, for the most part) ?


Let me put it this way:

You feel that expensive MUST be better.

You have forgotten that CD players, from the cheapest to the most
esoteric, tend to use the same basic mechanism, bought in from the
same supplier.


All ANY D/A converter, built in or otherwise, requires is a reasonably
unsteady unclocked data steam. This thread is about other stuff.
I do not feel that expensive is necessarily better, I never said that. My
antagonist hear feels that the cheapest stuff is as good as the most
expensive stuff. Can you support that viewpoint - that an el cheapo CD
player like the cheapest Chinese stuff would not benefit from a high-quality
external DAC. This is really stretching credulity, and this is not coming
from a "golden ears" type, either. I'm very much of the Arny Krueger mold in
these areas.

Mark Z.

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Laurence Payne" wrote ...
Let me put it this way:

You feel that expensive MUST be better.

Some people just can't get over that assumption. Nothing you can
say (or demonstrate) will dissuade them of their delusion. They
will never comprehend the technology and economics of modern
monolithic integrated circuitry.

Once again, I never said that. All I said was that a high quality piece has
a good chance of sounding better than a piece of crap. Consider the filter
stages and analog op-amp stages etc which follow any DAC stage. Wouldn't you
rather have these stages designed and built by a higher quality company or
someone you never even heard of in China with NO audio credentials, built
using the cheapest raw materials possible, right down to the contaminated
semiconductor material used in their op-amps and other parts? I'm not saying
a given player might not sound fine, but these blanket staements really take
the attitude of, "they all sound the same" way too far.

Mark Z.

David B. wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the discussion. I believe the problem may be
the DAC output voltage of 3.5mv is a bit too hot for the receiver.
I remember Audio Alchemy had internal jumpers in their DAC to
compensate for just such conflicts. The DAC went back to it's owner.
It won't be replaced.

David


How about that. Back to the original thread.

Amazing.....

mz

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home
theatre receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for
two channel in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on
briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible
clipping
but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the receiver or
the DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering clip light.
It is my guess that even though there is no audible clipping going
on, this is not a good thing. Any imput from you learned gentlemen
would be
appreciated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad
idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your
CD
player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade
performance.

My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.

Where do you get that?

Practical experience. Theoretical analysis.

An external DAC may or may not improve on a
built-in DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom".


That would depend on which circles of expertise you investigate.

Many built-in DAC's are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Despite their low prices, they are often up to the task at hand. Here
are the measured performance specs for the DAC in a $39 DVD player - a
Apex AD 1201:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.07, -0.05
Noise level, dB (A): -95.2
Dynamic range, dB (A): 95.0
THD, %: 0.0012
IMD, %: 0.002
Stereo crosstalk, dB:-92.9


A digital output going
to a competently designed DAC will probably sound noticeably better
than many all-in-one units.

Once performance achives levels that can now be achieved quite
inexpensively, there is no possible audible advantage to further
improvements, in the context of the true meaning of high fidelity.

Arny Krueger wrote:
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home
theatre receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for
two channel in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible
clipping but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the
receiver or the DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering
clip light. It is my guess that even though there is no audible
clipping going on, this is not a good thing. Any imput from you
learned gentlemen would be
appreciated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your
CD player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade
performance.

My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.

Where do you get that?

Practical experience. Theoretical analysis.

An external DAC may or may not improve on a
built-in DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom".


That would depend on which circles of expertise you investigate.

Many built-in DAC's are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Despite their low prices, they are often up to the task at hand. Here
are the measured performance specs for the DAC in a $39 DVD player - a
Apex AD 1201:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.07, -0.05
Noise level, dB (A): -95.2
Dynamic range, dB (A): 95.0
THD, %: 0.0012
IMD, %: 0.002
Stereo crosstalk, dB:-92.9


A digital output going
to a competently designed DAC will probably sound noticeably better
than many all-in-one units.

Once performance achives levels that can now be achieved quite
inexpensively, there is no possible audible advantage to further
improvements, in the context of the true meaning of high fidelity.

I appreciate that Arny, but my main point was that these is still a chance
that a quality piece will sound better than a piece of crap, and the guys I
was at odds with discounted this possibility 100%.

The JUNK that I deal with on a daily basis cannot be expected to hold up to
the highest standards in EVERY case. That's simply not even logical to
expect. Never mind the "state of the art" in semiconductor design for the
moment. Do you believe that EVERY no-name manufacturer in China ALWAYS
designs their chips etc to the highest, or even to ordinary standards?
I sadly often encounter counterfeit semis instead of the original parts I'm
looking for. What if some of the chips in these pieces of junk are
counterfeits (which by the way some almost certainly are) ? Will they stand
up to the "they all sound the same" test?

Later,

Mark Z.

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:

Many built-in DAC's are cheap, cheap, cheap.

Despite their low prices, they are often up to the task
at hand. Here
are the measured performance specs for the DAC in a $39
DVD player -
a Apex AD 1201:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB:
+0.07, -0.05
Noise level, dB (A): -95.2
Dynamic range, dB (A): 95.0
THD, %: 0.0012
IMD, %: 0.002
Stereo crosstalk, dB:-92.9

A digital output going
to a competently designed DAC will probably sound
noticeably better
than many all-in-one units.

Once performance achives levels that can now be achieved
quite
inexpensively, there is no possible audible advantage to
further
improvements, in the context of the true meaning of high
fidelity.

I appreciate that Arny, but my main point was that these
is still a
chance that a quality piece will sound better than a piece
of crap,
and the guys I was at odds with discounted this
possibility 100%.

The statement you were responding to said:

"Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a
bad idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one
inside your CD
player or DVD player."

I see two sets of hedge words, so I can't agree with the
100.00% number.

The JUNK that I deal with on a daily basis cannot be
expected to hold
up to the highest standards in EVERY case.

Given that my AD 1201 self-destructed while sitting boxed up
on the shelf, your choice of words "...cannot be expected to
hold up..." seems to be particularly relevant. ;-)

That's simply not even
logical to expect. Never mind the "state of the art" in
semiconductor
design for the moment. Do you believe that EVERY no-name
manufacturer
in China ALWAYS designs their chips etc to the highest, or
even to
ordinary standards?

Nope, but I don't see any claims about anything being 100%
any particular way.

I sadly often encounter counterfeit semis instead of the
original
parts I'm looking for. What if some of the chips in these
pieces of
junk are counterfeits (which by the way some almost
certainly are) ?
Will they stand up to the "they all sound the same" test?

Probably not, because there are still cheap DACs that don't
sound so good. They are easy to find in CD & DVD readers
and burners.

Arny Krueger wrote:

snip

Will they stand up to the "they all sound the same" test?

Probably not, because there are still cheap DACs that don't
sound so good. They are easy to find in CD & DVD readers
and burners.


That's all I was trying to say. All the blanket statements made it difficult
for me to make my legitimate point.

Later.

mz

Mark Z. said:

Mark D. Zacharias May 3, 5:34 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.audio.tech
From: "Mark D. Zacharias" - Find messages by this
author
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:34:19 GMT
Local: Tues,May 3 2005 5:34 am
Subject: External DAC to receiver question
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse




- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Arny Krueger wrote:
Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
still learning wrote:
David B asks:

I am auditioning a used California Audio Labs DAC with my home
theatre receiver (Kenwood 6060). I'm hoping to use this more for
two channel in
the future.
The light on the receiver that signals clipping will come on
briefly
(flicker) during playback on some CD's. There is no audible
clipping but when I play these same CD's using the DAC's in the
receiver or the DVD/CD player (Toshiba), I don't get the flickering

clip light. It is my guess that even though there is no audible
clipping going on, this is not a good thing. Any imput from you
learned gentlemen would be
appreciated.

------------------------------=AD------------------------------=AD-------

------------------------------=AD---------------------------


Conventional wisdom is that outboard DAC's in general are a bad
idea
since they can't improve on the perfromance of the one inside your
CD player or DVD player. What they likely CAN do is degrade
performance.


My advice is return it and learn more about why they aren't a good
investment.


Where do you get that?


Practical experience. Theoretical analysis.


An external DAC may or may not improve on a
built-in DAC circuit, but there is no such "conventional wisdom".


That would depend on which circles of expertise you investigate.


Many built-in DAC's are cheap, cheap, cheap.


Despite their low prices, they are often up to the task at hand. Here

are the measured performance specs for the DAC in a $39 DVD player -
a
Apex AD 1201:


Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.07, -0.05
Noise level, dB (A): -95.2
Dynamic range, dB (A): 95.0
THD, %: 0.0012
IMD, %: 0.002
Stereo crosstalk, dB:-92.9


A digital output going
to a competently designed DAC will probably sound noticeably better
than many all-in-one units.


Once performance achives levels that can now be achieved quite
inexpensively, there is no possible audible advantage to further
improvements, in the context of the true meaning of high fidelity.



I appreciate that Arny, but my main point was that these is still a
chance
that a quality piece will sound better than a piece of crap, and the
guys I
was at odds with discounted this possibility 100%.

At no time did I see any mention by the OP that his CD player was a
piece of junk. I stand by my original statement, that outboard DAC's
are unlikely to improve the performance of a CD player. This does noit
mean that there couldn't be some that might be helped, but only that
the odds are long.

The JUNK that I deal with on a daily basis cannot be expected to hold
up to
the highest standards in EVERY case.

I never said anything about every case, I can't speak for anyone else.

That's simply not even logical to
expect. Never mind the "state of the art" in semiconductor design for
the
moment. Do you believe that EVERY no-name manufacturer in China ALWAYS

designs their chips etc to the highest, or even to ordinary standards?

I sadly often encounter counterfeit semis instead of the original
parts I'm
looking for. What if some of the chips in these pieces of junk are
counterfeits (which by the way some almost certainly are) ? Will they
stand
up to the "they all sound the same" test?


Possibly not, but it is likely that the vast majority of DAC's are
sufficient to the task.