This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
example, but which one??) There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well, but this seems contrary
to my understanding of how they operate. PZMs are supposedly poor at
imaging, but are there workarounds here? Are there ways of somehow creating
a stereo effect? They also apparently have a really sharp high end that
often needs rolling off - are there any models that exhibit this problem
less than most? Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on
this topic.

Thanks,

Dave

Dave,

I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm going to try the PZM
route

Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from having
a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
ambience, and boominess at low frequencies. You would do a lot better to
treat the room properly rather than apply a band-aid.

--Ethan

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
Dave,

I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm going to try the PZM
route

Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from
having
a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
ambience, and boominess at low frequencies. You would do a lot better to
treat the room properly rather than apply a band-aid.

Agreed. Or try moving the piano around to a different spot.

Poly

Ethan Winer wrote:

Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from having
a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
ambience, and boominess at low frequencies. You would do a lot better to
treat the room properly rather than apply a band-aid.

--Ethan



Ditto....if the room is the problem, why are you trying to fix the mic?
Without more specifics about the room it's hard to tell what the exact
problem might be. But it sounds like you could benefit from a rug on the
hardwoods and some eggshell foam or diffusers on the walls/ceiling
(assuming all the surfaces are parallel). If you'd rather not hassle,
you could try placing mics inside the piano with the cover closed for an
ultra dry sound and then add a room in post w/ a top-quality plugin such
as waves. Good luck!

Jonny Durango

In article ,
Jonny Durango wrote:

you could try placing mics inside the piano with the cover closed for an
ultra dry sound and then add a room in post w/ a top-quality plugin such
as waves. Good luck!

What's wrong with a clean, dry piano? Once you have it down, you'd ruin
it with artificial stuff? Why?

james wrote:
In article ,
Jonny Durango wrote:


you could try placing mics inside the piano with the cover closed for an
ultra dry sound and then add a room in post w/ a top-quality plugin such
as waves. Good luck!


What's wrong with a clean, dry piano? Once you have it down, you'd ruin
it with artificial stuff? Why?




Nothing wrong with dry piano it was just a suggestion. That said, I
personally don't like dry jazz piano. When I think jazz I wanna hear the
smokey hipster-filled room it was conceivably recorded in. I'm really
turned off by a lot of the modern/fusion jazz because it's so dry (in
more ways than one IMHO).

Besides, there's one waves plugin in particular that sounds pretty damn
good...can't think of the name but it's a stereo reverb and eats up tons
of CPU bandwidth. Personally, I'd rather have a good artificial room
than no room at all for jazz. Just my 2 pennies.

Jonny Durango

In article ,
Jonny Durango wrote:

Nothing wrong with dry piano it was just a suggestion. That said, I
personally don't like dry jazz piano. When I think jazz I wanna hear the
smokey hipster-filled room it was conceivably recorded in. I'm really
turned off by a lot of the modern/fusion jazz because it's so dry (in
more ways than one IMHO).

I'm highly biased. I'm a musician (pianist), not a sound engineer. I
recognize (and DEEPLY respect) the different skills and abilities
between "sound" and "music". It used to bother me a lot, but now I just
accept it. Some musicians seem to be great sound guys, and some sound
guys seem to be great musicians, but the crossover is not very common,
in my limited experience.


Besides, there's one waves plugin in particular that sounds pretty damn
good...can't think of the name but it's a stereo reverb and eats up tons
of CPU bandwidth. Personally, I'd rather have a good artificial room
than no room at all for jazz. Just my 2 pennies.

I would probably agree with you *after* you played the A/B test for me.
That's why I'd be the one playing and you'd be the one recording. I can
accept that.

In article ,
Ethan Winer ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote:

Using PZM microphones can help to reduce the comb filter effects from having
a microphone close to a reflecting boundary. But it will do nothing to get
rid of all the other problems in the room, such as flutter echo, excess
ambience, and boominess at low frequencies.

Being inside the closed lid of the grand piano takes care of that.

The description makes it sound like a room that's wonderful to perform
in, is garbage to record in. I can believe that. But I'd love to play
that Yamaha in that long, narrow room.

David Grant wrote:

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Maybe. It depends on what is wrong with the room.

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
example, but which one??) There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well, but this seems contrary
to my understanding of how they operate.

This gives you a very close-in sound. It might be a good thing for PA
work.

PZMs are supposedly poor at
imaging, but are there workarounds here? Are there ways of somehow creating
a stereo effect?

Stereo imaging comes from the room. If you are eliminating room effects,
you are also eliminating the real sources of imaging.

They also apparently have a really sharp high end that
often needs rolling off - are there any models that exhibit this problem
less than most?

No, it's part of the physics of the design. They tend to use capsules that
have a strong top-end rolloff, but you will still see a rising top octave
on any actual PZM.

Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on
this topic.

If your room problems are modes and not slap echo, a PZM will not help
you. If you have a large room with a slap echo problem or some kinds
of flutter echo, and you don't have the time to fix the room, the PZM can
be a lifesaver.

In all cases, fixing the room will buy you a lot more than any trick
miking schemes. But when you have ten minutes to airtime this is usually
not possible.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

If you have to make your room and piano work, then I agree with trying
to work on the sound of the space, then get some high end microphones
(not PZM) and perhaps a sampling reverb to help sweeten it up. You'll
be spending at least 3-5 thousand dollars for the upgrade just to give
yourself a fighting chance. Something to consider. I guess the question
is: how good does the result need to be?

Mike

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has
been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with
hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to
an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion
mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Maybe. It depends on what is wrong with the room.


I'd assume the same things that are wrong with any 32' x 13' x 8' untreated
room with hardwood flooring. There's nothing special about the room, no
angled walls or anything.

David Grant wrote:

I'd assume the same things that are wrong with any 32' x 13' x 8' untreated
room with hardwood flooring. There's nothing special about the room, no
angled walls or anything.

Well, what are you doing about it? At least about the worst of the bass
modes and the the floor reflections? Have you even tried throwing a
carpet down and listening to what happens?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I believe Ethan has an acoustical mode calculator on his website you can use
to find what modes will be associated with the SIZE of the room.
Unfortunately it won't give you values for things like hardwood floors or
furniture. But it would be a start, and with some of the acoustic panelling
available today (including Ethan's RealTraps) you can use stands for
flexible placement. Then you can perhaps just maintain your out of pocket
expenses to what you already own and something that would be available for
other duties as necessary. In live sound PZMs might be called for, but in
studio work maybe not so much. In location recording, I'd rather have
flexible acoustic treatment than to rely on a "least common denominator" mic
like a PZM. Then again, I've used them for anything from a church upright
piano to lying on the floor as a crowd mic and even under a set of drums
(well, not under the kick, of course).

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"David Grant" wrote in message
...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Grant wrote:

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has
been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with
hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to
an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5
billion
mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So
I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Maybe. It depends on what is wrong with the room.


I'd assume the same things that are wrong with any 32' x 13' x 8'
untreated
room with hardwood flooring. There's nothing special about the room, no
angled walls or anything.

If desparate and broke and still willing to try anything, cover the
piano with heavy packing blankets, and record from underneath the
piano. Or inside on short stick.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:58:49 -0400, "David Grant"
wrote:

This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
example, but which one??) There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well, but this seems contrary
to my understanding of how they operate. PZMs are supposedly poor at
imaging, but are there workarounds here? Are there ways of somehow creating
a stereo effect? They also apparently have a really sharp high end that
often needs rolling off - are there any models that exhibit this problem
less than most? Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on
this topic.

Thanks,

Dave




Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

David Grant wrote:

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable.

Mind you, I like my old C451 w/CK1 cap very well for some things; but
I'd not think to capture a jazz piano with a pair of them. They're
slightly bitey on the top. Can work for some types of pop piano sounds.

Smoother mics can help, like the Schoeps, or for less, the Josephson
Series 4's, and hypercardioid capsules can often deal well with
unfortunate acoustics.

PZM's are most handy (I still have a Wahrenbrock that works) but you
still may not appreciate the result if you want a natural piano sound,
since any directional mic too close to the piano fails to hear the whole
instrument

--
ha

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin


Hmm, that kind of contradicts most of what I've read on here in the past few
years.

Dave

Well if the room is playing havoc with the sound, minimize it's
influence in the sound.
With the close mics you will get the articulation, a couple of
additional mics back as reverb sends can prove to very satisfying to
the overall sound. I believe no matter how much you treat a certain
size room, you just can't get the room to sound any bigger. All it
seems you can do, is influence the reflective properties of the fixed
environment.
You could also try putting up reflective baffles between the room mics
and the original sound coming from the piano, with the room mics and
the piano quite centered in the room. It might seem crazy, but it can
really give you amazing results.
kevin

Then again, plugs have gotten much better and it costs far less for the
plugs than the actual hardware pieces.

I wouldn't prefer to record a dry piano sound and then add acoustics but
sometimes you don't have that "preferential" ability.

Considering what you are trying to do, there's obviously one thing you can
do that you aren't considering (or haven't addressed) and that is to go
somewhere else and record the piece on some other piano. I make the wild
hair assumption that it's the performance you wish to capture and not the
desire to make the sound of that particular piano into some stellar sound.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"David Grant" wrote in message
news

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin


Hmm, that kind of contradicts most of what I've read on here in the past
few
years.

Dave

David Grant wrote:

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!

Hmm, that kind of contradicts most of what I've read on here in the past few
years.

Basically, that's what you do if you are desperate and have to work in
a lousy room. Because in a lousy room, there isn't anything _else_ to
do.

The real solution, of course, is not to work in lousy rooms.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

David Grant wrote:

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin



Hmm, that kind of contradicts most of what I've read on here in the past few
years.

Dave


If the room is bad, get less room.

--
Les Cargill

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin

I say, get a couple of good mics up close and sweeten it later!!
kevin

In article writes:

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
example, but which one??)

They're really all about the same (other than the half-hemisphere
styles), particularly when you tape them to a large surface like a
piano lid, or put them on the floor.

PZMs on a piano are best when you need to close the lid because of
leakage, but they're never best. I don't think they'll solve your bad
room problems, but they might give you a sound that you can live with
because you'll be reducing the room ambience.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article ,
David Grant wrote:


This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion has been
about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x 8'H with hardwood
floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP into a DAW.

You call that a bad room? What you describe sounds fabulous. A great
piano, a nice long room where you can sit up close and hear the music or
off in the back and listen quietly, a nice reflective floor, and some
furniture to mute it a bit.

This room is a problem for jazz?

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading to an
RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the 5 billion mic
positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is unworkable. So I'm
going to try the PZM route as some people seem to be big advocates.

Have you tried putting condensor mics left and right of your head while
you play? (I'm assuming you're the player, even though you didn't say
so; I'm a pianist myself so I jump to conclusions by putting myself in
the situation).

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs for this
application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned ('Crown PZM' for
example, but which one??)


Crown PZM's are something of a de-facto standard for miking pianos.

The lid makes an ideal flat backing for the PZM's and if you keep the
lid closed, it pretty much eliminates any noise from outside. You might
want to experiment, putting a stereo pair of PZM's over the bridge, or
one over the bridge, one near the back, or even try one on the floor
(the wood floor under the piano should make an excellent soundboard.)

The most fiddly part of this seems to be hanging the wire so it stays
off the strings.


There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well

Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.

I don't know about stereo imaging, since the only experience I have
personally is with a single mic in a 7' Steinway, for taping my
university recitals. And I'm fairly certain the mic was a late 1980s
Radio Shack knockoff. But the tapes were no worse than my performance,
which was no worse than my playing today :-)

james wrote:

You call that a bad room? What you describe sounds fabulous. A great
piano, a nice long room where you can sit up close and hear the music or
off in the back and listen quietly, a nice reflective floor, and some
furniture to mute it a bit.

This room is a problem for jazz?


If all the surfaces are parallel a room this size could produce some
nasty standing waves, especially with those hardwoods. I regularly play
a kawai baby grand in a room about this size and despite hanging
curtains on one of the walls the standing waves are pretty bad.


Crown PZM's are something of a de-facto standard for miking pianos.


Technically Crown is the only company that makes Pressure Zone
Microphones....there are lots of good boundary mics but it's true that
Crown is pretty much the standard


There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well


Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.


yep....that is pretty pointless

Jonny Durango

Jonny Durango wrote:

There's also very different views about how to get
a decent sound with them. For example I've read that taping two back to back
and dangling the pair over the strings works well

Good lord no. That defeats the purpose of the design of the mic.

yep....that is pretty pointless

Theory, schmeory. Tried it? It's kind of a *******ization of Jecklin and
can work well sometimes.

--
ha

David Grant wrote:
This is a follow up to my post on 2002-03-01

To review: 10 year old C2 Yamaha which in my unprofessional opinion
has been about as well voiced as it can be, room is 32'L x 13'W x
8'H
with hardwood floor and furniture, recording style is solo jazz. RNP
into a DAW.

Having tried X-Y small diaphragm condenser mics (451s) and upgrading
to an RNP and having nothing but lack of success in every one of the
5 billion mic positions I've tried, I think I've decided the room is
unworkable. So I'm going to try the PZM route as some people seem to
be big advocates.

I think that using a PZM on a piano can be a very effective thing to
do. Its an act with a purpose, and that purpose is not obtaining a
maximally natural sound.

Going back through the google archives there's lots of talk of PZMs
for this application, but a particular model is rarely mentioned
('Crown PZM' for example, but which one??)

Hmm, there's always the Shure SM91 and sucessor Beta 91.

There's also very different views about how to get a decent sound
with them. For
example I've read that taping two back to back and dangling the pair
over the strings works well, but this seems contrary to my
understanding of how they operate.

I agree, it seems bizarre.

So what are you thinking of here - putting the PZM inside the piano to
get the sound of the strings and sounding board with minimal
involvement of your apparently bad-sounding listening room, or what?

PZMs are supposedly poor at imaging, but are there workarounds
here?

If you put the PZM out in the room, you are going to involve that
room's sound, which say you don't like.

Are there ways of somehow creating a stereo effect?

My approach is to use the PZM on the underside of the piano top, along
with another close-mounted mic under the piano and at its foot. This
definately gives you two vastly different acoustical views of the
piano.

They also apparently have a really sharp high end that often needs
rolling off.

As I use the PZM there's this gigantic blast of midrange from it that
overwhelms almost everything else that might be happening. Something
about the location, I think.

- are there any models that exhibit this problem less than most?

I don't have the resources to be a conossieur of PZMs.

Anyways, was just hoping to open a discussion focused on this
topic.

If you put a PZM inside a piano, you can definately pretty well remove
the room from the equation. The cost is natural sound. Doing this
almost makes the piano sound like an electronic instrument.