Recently, I decided to renew my music education by teaching myself some
piano. With no goals other than to please myself, I bought a Fatar MIDI
keyboard controller with weighted keys, and the Steinberg VFX plugin called
"Grand Piano."

I was informed that in some cases (I'm not sure whether Steinberg's product
actually qualifies), digital samples are now provided by actual instrument
simulations in software, which produce an eerie, detailed reality of the
instrument. Not surprising, since everything electronic has at least the
possibility of getting better and better.

But this leads to the question of how to reproduce the sample via
loudspeakers. In the case of conventional recordings, the problem is so
complex as to defy solution, due to the wide variety of miking techniques.
But in the case of sampled sound, we start with something that is supposed
to be mathematically precise, which means there is a chance to make optimum
choices in reproduction.

Any guidelines?

digital samples are now provided by actual instrument
simulations in software, which produce an eerie, detailed reality of
the
instrument.


this is called physical-modelling, and is a different thing to sampling
(recording existing acoustic sounds). It can indeed result in soma
amazingly realistic instrument sounds. I had a Yamaha VL70m
physical-modelling synth, which was excellent.

I doubt if the Stienburg Grand Piano uses physical-modelling . . . much
more likely it uses sampling, which is actual recordings of actual
piano notes. A Sampled sound must use a microphone or some kind of
pick-up to sample the sound in the first place. Physical-modelling
doesn't, as it uses mathematics to create a new sound from fundamental
mathematical concepts, rather than replaying a recording of an acoustic
sound.

Physical-modelling can also be applied to such things as
guitar-amplifiers, which are intentionally colouring and changing the
sound in desired ways.


Chris
http://www.chris-melchior.com/string.htm (real strings for realistic
prices)

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
[snip]

The Grand *is* sample based... but not in a bad way. As for how to
reproduce this via loudspeakers... you have virtual room location...
and you can of course route it through your desk and FX as normal. I
don't really understand the problem you are trying to solve?

Paul, I'm looking for technical points regarding the reproducers that would
preserve the reproduction chain as much as possible. The controls you
mention are useful, but not primary.

Robert Morein wrote:
Recently, I decided to renew my music education by teaching myself
some piano. With no goals other than to please myself, I bought a
Fatar MIDI keyboard controller with weighted keys, and the Steinberg
VFX plugin called "Grand Piano."

I was informed that in some cases (I'm not sure whether Steinberg's
product actually qualifies), digital samples are now provided by
actual instrument simulations in software, which produce an eerie,
detailed reality of the instrument. Not surprising, since everything
electronic has at least the possibility of getting better and
better.

But this leads to the question of how to reproduce the sample via
loudspeakers. In the case of conventional recordings, the problem is
so complex as to defy solution, due to the wide variety of miking
techniques. But in the case of sampled sound, we start with
something
that is supposed to be mathematically precise, which means there is
a
chance to make optimum choices in reproduction.

Any guidelines?

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Robert Morein wrote:
Recently, I decided to renew my music education by teaching myself
some piano. With no goals other than to please myself, I bought a
Fatar MIDI keyboard controller with weighted keys, and the Steinberg
VFX plugin called "Grand Piano."

I was informed that in some cases (I'm not sure whether Steinberg's
product actually qualifies), digital samples are now provided by
actual instrument simulations in software, which produce an eerie,
detailed reality of the instrument. Not surprising, since everything
electronic has at least the possibility of getting better and
better.

But this leads to the question of how to reproduce the sample via
loudspeakers. In the case of conventional recordings, the problem is
so complex as to defy solution, due to the wide variety of miking
techniques. But in the case of sampled sound, we start with
something
that is supposed to be mathematically precise, which means there is
a
chance to make optimum choices in reproduction.

Any guidelines?

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good?

My question is not directed toward subjective pleasure.
As far as speakers that sound good, I have an ample set to choose from.
I keep the following around the house:
Acoustat 2+2
Kef Reference III
Near 50m
Polk LSi15
AR BXI 58j
and a bunch of other bookshelf speakers.

In fact, Arny, it's more in the direction of how you seem to think about
things.
We have an electronic piano, which has presumably been fashioned with great
care.
How do we find a transducer that reproduces the sound as close as possible
to a real piano, positioned similarly in the room, without the difficulty of
positioning a real grand piano in the same place for comparison, which is
well nigh impossible.

Robert Morein wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good?

My question is not directed toward subjective pleasure.
As far as speakers that sound good, I have an ample set to choose
from.
I keep the following around the house:
Acoustat 2+2
Kef Reference III
Near 50m
Polk LSi15
AR BXI 58j
and a bunch of other bookshelf speakers.

Obviously Robert, none of them sound good enough to you.

We have an electronic piano, which has presumably been fashioned
with
great care.

More care than your audio system?

More care than the recordings you play on it?

How do we find a transducer that reproduces the sound as close as
possible to a real piano, positioned similarly in the room, without
the difficulty of positioning a real grand piano in the same place
for comparison, which is well nigh impossible.

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good, according to you?

Robert, you haven't specified which model of Studiologic MIDI
controller that you've got. Many seem to run well under $1000. Why are
you hyperventilating?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Robert Morein wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good?

My question is not directed toward subjective pleasure.
As far as speakers that sound good, I have an ample set to choose
from.
I keep the following around the house:
Acoustat 2+2
Kef Reference III
Near 50m
Polk LSi15
AR BXI 58j
and a bunch of other bookshelf speakers.

Obviously Robert, none of them sound good enough to you.

We have an electronic piano, which has presumably been fashioned
with
great care.

More care than your audio system?

More care than the recordings you play on it?

How do we find a transducer that reproduces the sound as close as
possible to a real piano, positioned similarly in the room, without
the difficulty of positioning a real grand piano in the same place
for comparison, which is well nigh impossible.

Why not break some new ground and find some speakers that actually
sound good, according to you?

Robert, you haven't specified which model of Studiologic MIDI
controller that you've got. Many seem to run well under $1000. Why are
you hyperventilating?

Arny, the type of midi controller is irrelevant to the reproduction of
synthesized samples.

Robert Morein wrote:

Arny, the type of midi controller is irrelevant to the reproduction
of
synthesized samples.

You're nuts. I'm out of this discussion.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Robert Morein wrote:

Arny, the type of midi controller is irrelevant to the reproduction
of
synthesized samples.

You're nuts. I'm out of this discussion.

A rare concession of defeat. It should be much more common.

The synth itself will reproduce the sampled sound up to its ability to
do so. Some synthesizers are better at this than others.
Which model FATAR controller do you have?
I used to have a Roland A-90 Controller hooked up to a Yamaha TG-33 box
which gave some amazing sounds. Lots of your synth groups used this
box in the late 80's early 90's.
A few years ago I broke away from the Midi Controller/Sound box setup
to a Roland XP-80 Music Workstation. More expansion now than I will
ever use.
I use a pair of JBL 6208 Bi-amped Reference Monitors. The XP-80 uses
sampled sounds, and
combined with those monitors, the sounds are extremely realistic.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/.../1996-6208.htm

How are you on your understanding of MIDI technology?

"DualInfo" wrote in message
ups.com...
The synth itself will reproduce the sampled sound up to its ability to
do so. Some synthesizers are better at this than others.
Which model FATAR controller do you have?
I used to have a Roland A-90 Controller hooked up to a Yamaha TG-33 box
which gave some amazing sounds. Lots of your synth groups used this
box in the late 80's early 90's.
A few years ago I broke away from the Midi Controller/Sound box setup
to a Roland XP-80 Music Workstation. More expansion now than I will
ever use.
I use a pair of JBL 6208 Bi-amped Reference Monitors. The XP-80 uses
sampled sounds, and
combined with those monitors, the sounds are extremely realistic.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/.../1996-6208.htm

How are you on your understanding of MIDI technology?
Fine, thanks.


Thanks for the JBL reference. Perhaps studio monitors are the way to go.

Opinions?

"Signal" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" emitted :

The Grand *is* sample based... but not in a bad way. As for how to
reproduce this via loudspeakers... you have virtual room location...
and you can of course route it through your desk and FX as normal. I
don't really understand the problem you are trying to solve?

Paul, I'm looking for technical points regarding the reproducers that
would
preserve the reproduction chain as much as possible. The controls you
mention are useful, but not primary.

I think I understand where you're coming from now. It is a most
unusual query. The synth appears as a stereo output on your mix - I
suggest treating it like any other stereo source.


Comforting, but I want that piano, before me, just like a real grand.
Nearfield capture, nearfield listening.