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Mike Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

Hi,
I'm helping a local band who have vocal, lead guitar, rhythm guitar and
drums.
As we are starting out we don't have much in the way of equipment, but we do
have a Studioworks mixer
with built in 200 watt amp, and 12 channels, also main and monitor speaker
outputs.
There is also a Rec Out which I have plugged into the Line In on my sound
card and recorded
direct to MP3 on my hard drive, crude but works.
Then burn the MP3 to CD.

My question is, what is the best way to record a live band?
Option1) Set up two mic's mix through another mixer and record to pc
Option2) Use Rec Out from mixer, works but levels not always right
Option3) Can multiple feeds (from 5 mics) be fed from the mic leads, split
so feeds
go to both the mixer/amp, and to the sound card(via the MIDI
port?!?)
Or do I need to save for a better solution?

Many thanks
Mike.


  #2   Report Post  
Todd H.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

"Mike Walker" writes:

Hi, I'm helping a local band who have vocal, lead guitar, rhythm
guitar and drums.


No bass guitarist? Heresy.... :-)

As we are starting out we don't have much in the way of equipment,
but we do have a Studioworks mixer with built in 200 watt amp, and
12 channels, also main and monitor speaker outputs. There is also a
Rec Out which I have plugged into the Line In on my sound card and
recorded direct to MP3 on my hard drive, crude but works. Then burn
the MP3 to CD.


And the problem probably is that you hear a lot more vocals than are
representative since the PA pushes mainly vocals, and less of the
isntruments that already have a good deal of stage volume.

My question is, what is the best way to record a live band?


That all depends--what is purpose of recording? Is it to have a
recording to tell the band what they really sounded like in the house
(bad mix and all) to review their product.... or do you want something
that has the flexibility of being able to remix/master afterwards in
hopes of making a recording that approaches something that sounds
technically good enough to distribute to fans as a "live album?"

The two require two very different approaches.

For a very nice solution to the former requirement of getting a very
accurate representation of what the live band sounced like in the
house (potentially with a poor mix, poor room acoustics, bad PA and
all), see my web page at:
http://www.toddh.net/music/njb/


Now, for a high quality recording that's listenable by fans and what
people expect from a produced "live recording," you will need a
digital multitrack recorder (or a multi track sound card for your PC
that allows you to record separate tracks for each instrument) and
look at splitting mics or direct out's. How that split is done
depends on the flexibility of your current live mixer (i.e. whether it
has submix buses you can use, whether channels have direct outputs,
etc).


An example of a multi track sound card, see M-Audio's page that has a
lot of different products with various numbers of analog inputs. With
software like n-Track (free) or ProTools, Cakewalk perhaps, or others,
you can use such a card to record multi track audio with a separate
track for each guitar, bass, each vocal, and one or several tracks for
the drums (depending on whether you can get a good drum submix to the
recorder):
http://www.m-audio.net/products/m-audio/delta.php


The best you can do with a regular stereo sound card in your PC is
record two track Left and Right audio as you are doing now. The MIDI
port of your sound card, by the way, has nothing to do with recording
analog sound--it has more to do with digitally controlling external
keyboards and effects devices.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
  #3   Report Post  
Mike Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

Hi Todd,
Many thanks, let me expand;
advert
If there are any bass players in the Grimsby area - Please drop me a line -
We need you!
/advert
We know we need a bass player, but they are in short supply here!

The idea of the recording is just so the band can hear what they sound like,
I can record direct to Hard drive, then burn a CD as they pack the gear up,
and you don't lose any quality when I record copies for the rest of the
band, and family's!

I will have a look at your site, and links.

Once again thanks for the long and informative reply.

Kind Regards
Mike.


"Todd H." wrote in message
...
"Mike Walker" writes:

Hi, I'm helping a local band who have vocal, lead guitar, rhythm
guitar and drums.


No bass guitarist? Heresy.... :-)

As we are starting out we don't have much in the way of equipment,
but we do have a Studioworks mixer with built in 200 watt amp, and
12 channels, also main and monitor speaker outputs. There is also a
Rec Out which I have plugged into the Line In on my sound card and
recorded direct to MP3 on my hard drive, crude but works. Then burn
the MP3 to CD.


And the problem probably is that you hear a lot more vocals than are
representative since the PA pushes mainly vocals, and less of the
isntruments that already have a good deal of stage volume.

My question is, what is the best way to record a live band?


That all depends--what is purpose of recording? Is it to have a
recording to tell the band what they really sounded like in the house
(bad mix and all) to review their product.... or do you want something
that has the flexibility of being able to remix/master afterwards in
hopes of making a recording that approaches something that sounds
technically good enough to distribute to fans as a "live album?"

The two require two very different approaches.

For a very nice solution to the former requirement of getting a very
accurate representation of what the live band sounced like in the
house (potentially with a poor mix, poor room acoustics, bad PA and
all), see my web page at:
http://www.toddh.net/music/njb/


Now, for a high quality recording that's listenable by fans and what
people expect from a produced "live recording," you will need a
digital multitrack recorder (or a multi track sound card for your PC
that allows you to record separate tracks for each instrument) and
look at splitting mics or direct out's. How that split is done
depends on the flexibility of your current live mixer (i.e. whether it
has submix buses you can use, whether channels have direct outputs,
etc).


An example of a multi track sound card, see M-Audio's page that has a
lot of different products with various numbers of analog inputs. With
software like n-Track (free) or ProTools, Cakewalk perhaps, or others,
you can use such a card to record multi track audio with a separate
track for each guitar, bass, each vocal, and one or several tracks for
the drums (depending on whether you can get a good drum submix to the
recorder):
http://www.m-audio.net/products/m-audio/delta.php


The best you can do with a regular stereo sound card in your PC is
record two track Left and Right audio as you are doing now. The MIDI
port of your sound card, by the way, has nothing to do with recording
analog sound--it has more to do with digitally controlling external
keyboards and effects devices.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/



  #4   Report Post  
Todd H.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

"Mike Walker" writes:

Hi Todd,
Many thanks, let me expand;
advert
If there are any bass players in the Grimsby area - Please drop me a line -
We need you!
/advert
We know we need a bass player, but they are in short supply here!


I hear ya! I'm a happily employed bass player, though I'm a converted
drummer. :-)

You could try convert one of those worthless guitarists. :-) But try
not to let them play bass like a guitarist! 8-) That's the trick.
Getting those folks to realize they're in the rhythm section and not
in the spotlight is the typical deprogramming task that takes time.

The idea of the recording is just so the band can hear what they
sound like, I can record direct to Hard drive, then burn a CD as
they pack the gear up, and you don't lose any quality when I record
copies for the rest of the band, and family's!


Ah--a humble scope lets you go simple!

Sound Professionals battery box $59 (maybe consider adding the
attenuators just to be safe) + SP-SM 5 single point stereo
omnidirectional mics with 8" arms ($109) with the higher sensitivity
mic capsules, and plug that baby into the LINE INPUT of your
soundcard, adjust the levels with Windows Recorder (making sure the
line input is unmuted in your windows volume control in the
oft-overlooked recording panel of that volume control), and go to
town!

If you don't have a line input on your soundcard and instead have a
MIC INPUT, by all means get Sound Professionals battery box $59
(_definitely_ pay to add the attenuators--you may need them to pad
down the mic level) + SP-SM 5 single point stereo omnidirectional mics
with 8" arms ($109) with the _standard_ sensitivity mic capsules.

See soundprofessionals.com

You can't beat how flat those inexpensive omnidirectional mic capsules
are. I had no idea there was such a vast difference in the bass
response between directional and omnidirectional mics. As it turns
out, it's a snap to make a great omnidirectional mic with superb bass
response, but it's mighty hard and expensive to make a directional mic
with that same good bass response.

If you're already schleppin a computer out to shows and want to burn
CD's while they pack up, and you wanna give them an exact idea of what
they sounded like in the house, you can't beat this setup, IMO.

If you want more portability, look into a hardisk based recorder like
the Creative Nomad Jukebox. But, that'd make you take it home, hook
it up via usb to get it over to your computer before you can cut
CD's.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
  #5   Report Post  
Mike Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

Once again Todd, many words of wisdom,
and why you may ask how do I know these are
words of wisdom?
Well I've downloaded into_the_night_triple_threat from your web site.

I like it !

Hoping to down load more tonight, keep up the good work,
BTW, is the recording I've downloaded done using the kit
you have described on your web site?

Kind Regards
Mike.


"Todd H." wrote in message
...
"Mike Walker" writes:

Hi Todd,
Many thanks, let me expand;
advert
If there are any bass players in the Grimsby area - Please drop me a

line -
We need you!
/advert
We know we need a bass player, but they are in short supply here!


I hear ya! I'm a happily employed bass player, though I'm a converted
drummer. :-)

You could try convert one of those worthless guitarists. :-) But try
not to let them play bass like a guitarist! 8-) That's the trick.
Getting those folks to realize they're in the rhythm section and not
in the spotlight is the typical deprogramming task that takes time.

The idea of the recording is just so the band can hear what they
sound like, I can record direct to Hard drive, then burn a CD as
they pack the gear up, and you don't lose any quality when I record
copies for the rest of the band, and family's!


Ah--a humble scope lets you go simple!

Sound Professionals battery box $59 (maybe consider adding the
attenuators just to be safe) + SP-SM 5 single point stereo
omnidirectional mics with 8" arms ($109) with the higher sensitivity
mic capsules, and plug that baby into the LINE INPUT of your
soundcard, adjust the levels with Windows Recorder (making sure the
line input is unmuted in your windows volume control in the
oft-overlooked recording panel of that volume control), and go to
town!

If you don't have a line input on your soundcard and instead have a
MIC INPUT, by all means get Sound Professionals battery box $59
(_definitely_ pay to add the attenuators--you may need them to pad
down the mic level) + SP-SM 5 single point stereo omnidirectional mics
with 8" arms ($109) with the _standard_ sensitivity mic capsules.

See soundprofessionals.com

You can't beat how flat those inexpensive omnidirectional mic capsules
are. I had no idea there was such a vast difference in the bass
response between directional and omnidirectional mics. As it turns
out, it's a snap to make a great omnidirectional mic with superb bass
response, but it's mighty hard and expensive to make a directional mic
with that same good bass response.

If you're already schleppin a computer out to shows and want to burn
CD's while they pack up, and you wanna give them an exact idea of what
they sounded like in the house, you can't beat this setup, IMO.

If you want more portability, look into a hardisk based recorder like
the Creative Nomad Jukebox. But, that'd make you take it home, hook
it up via usb to get it over to your computer before you can cut
CD's.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/





  #6   Report Post  
Todd H.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

"Mike Walker" writes:
Once again Todd, many words of wisdom,
and why you may ask how do I know these are
words of wisdom?
Well I've downloaded into_the_night_triple_threat from your web site.

I like it !


Yeah, that's my fave too. Kudos to our guitarist who wrote it. If
anyone else is interested what we're bantering about, it's at:
http://triplethreatband.com/hear_us.htm

Hoping to down load more tonight, keep up the good work,
BTW, is the recording I've downloaded done using the kit
you have described on your web site?


Yes, actually. Into the Night is a simple open air recording as are
the other two live tracks on the site. The rest are snippets from
rather dated studio cuts. The live recordings were done Creative
Nomad Jukebox fed via it's line level input using the Sound
Professionals microphone and battery box described in detail at
http://www.toddh.net/music/njb/

Right now, I'm working on a multi-track live recording I captured at a
recent show we had professional sound. There, I used a Tascam 788
hard disk recorder, and captured 6 tracks: the drum submix, bass gtr,
lead guitar, acousticgtr/keys submix, vox1 and vox2. The Allen and
Heath console used by the sound company made it nice...no mic splits
needed. Fed the recorder with direct outputs from individual
channels, and XLR sub-mix outputs from the sub groups.

I'm waiting on a BIOS upgrade for the Tascam so I can get the tracks
onto WAV files and exported over into ProTools so I can make it all
nice and pretty. Playing with the recording stuff is almost as fun as
playing the shows.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

  #7   Report Post  
Mike Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Recording a Live band

Just a thought ...

If you ever make up a CD of your songs, any chance of sending a copy
to me? (from Austin, USA to Grimsby, UK - Amazing!)
(I'm happy to pay for postage etc)

Playing with the recording stuff is almost as fun as
playing the shows.

As I can not play a musical instrument to save my life, its the
sound mixing desk for me, as I said before we are not quite
up to your standard yet, but with your permission I will
keep your e-mail on file and in a few weeks when we have
another recording afternoon I will put a couple of tracks on
a FTP site so you can hear what we sound like !

Many Thanks
Mike.




"Todd H." wrote in message
...
"Mike Walker" writes:
Once again Todd, many words of wisdom,
and why you may ask how do I know these are
words of wisdom?
Well I've downloaded into_the_night_triple_threat from your web site.

I like it !


Yeah, that's my fave too. Kudos to our guitarist who wrote it. If
anyone else is interested what we're bantering about, it's at:
http://triplethreatband.com/hear_us.htm

Hoping to down load more tonight, keep up the good work,
BTW, is the recording I've downloaded done using the kit
you have described on your web site?


Yes, actually. Into the Night is a simple open air recording as are
the other two live tracks on the site. The rest are snippets from
rather dated studio cuts. The live recordings were done Creative
Nomad Jukebox fed via it's line level input using the Sound
Professionals microphone and battery box described in detail at
http://www.toddh.net/music/njb/

Right now, I'm working on a multi-track live recording I captured at a
recent show we had professional sound. There, I used a Tascam 788
hard disk recorder, and captured 6 tracks: the drum submix, bass gtr,
lead guitar, acousticgtr/keys submix, vox1 and vox2. The Allen and
Heath console used by the sound company made it nice...no mic splits
needed. Fed the recorder with direct outputs from individual
channels, and XLR sub-mix outputs from the sub groups.

I'm waiting on a BIOS upgrade for the Tascam so I can get the tracks
onto WAV files and exported over into ProTools so I can make it all
nice and pretty. Playing with the recording stuff is almost as fun as
playing the shows.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/



 
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