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American Vacuum Society?
Hi RATs:
No, this is not intended as a political post - don't flame me. This morning (pronounce: "mourning") I stumbled over this on http://slashdot.org/ 'Science: Happy 100th To The Vacuum Tube Technology Posted by timothy on Monday November 15, @09:59PM from the vacuums-don't-suck dept. williamw83 writes "Today, November 16, 2004 has been declared as the centennial of the birth of modern electronics by the American Vacuum Society. As the AIP Physics News Update reports, this marks 'British scientist John Ambrose Fleming's 1904 invention of the first practical electronic device. Known as the thermionic diode, this first simple vacuum tube, containing only two electrodes, could be used to convert an alternating current (AC) to a direct current (DC).' Today's celebration takes place as part of the AVS's 51st Annual Symposium & Exhibition in Anaheim, CA. Being a guitar player myself, I've come to truly appreciate the technology of the vacuum tube every time I crank up my amplifier. This 100-year-old grandfather of electronics, used by musicians and audiophiles across the world, has proven that profound advances in technology do not always render old technologies obsolete."' Besides: There would be no semiconductor devices without vacuum technology. ;-) There was also this article on the german magazine Der Spiegel about Jim Marshall. For those who know german ... http://www.spiegel.de/archiv/suche/0...4-QV9FPSZBX0Y9 SklNK01BUlNIQUxMJkFfVD1CJkFfQj0xNiUyRTExJTJFMjAwNC ZBX1Y9MTclMkUxMCUyR TIwMDQmQV9aPTMwJkFfTz1TUE8rU1BJK0tTUCtVTkkmQV9TPTE _3,00.html (please mind the word-wrap) Kind regards, Eike |
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#2
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"Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE" wrote: Hi RATs: No, this is not intended as a political post - don't flame me. This morning (pronounce: "mourning") I stumbled over this on http://slashdot.org/ 'Science: Happy 100th To The Vacuum Tube Technology Posted by timothy on Monday November 15, @09:59PM from the vacuums-don't-suck dept. williamw83 writes "Today, November 16, 2004 has been declared as the centennial of the birth of modern electronics by the American Vacuum Society. As the AIP Physics News Update reports, this marks 'British scientist John Ambrose Fleming's 1904 invention of the first practical electronic device. Known as the thermionic diode, this first simple vacuum tube, containing only two electrodes, could be used to convert an alternating current (AC) to a direct current (DC).' Today's celebration takes place as part of the AVS's 51st Annual Symposium & Exhibition in Anaheim, CA. Being a guitar player myself, I've come to truly appreciate the technology of the vacuum tube every time I crank up my amplifier. This 100-year-old grandfather of electronics, used by musicians and audiophiles across the world, has proven that profound advances in technology do not always render old technologies obsolete."' Besides: There would be no semiconductor devices without vacuum technology. ;-) We can't be sure of that. Sooner or later some dude would have persisted with experiments on germanium long enough to make a transistor. That happened of course in about 1947, but without tubes and electronics occuring first, perhaps transistors may have been invented 20 years prior to 1947, since a bigger demand for what electronics could do would have built up. Tubes allowed radio speach communications; there was a big demand for that since the telephone couldn't do it all. If tubes had never been invented something else would have been found. Ppl are saying nano technology is about to revolutionize the way we do things like the vacuum tube did in 1904. Patrick Turner. There was also this article on the german magazine Der Spiegel about Jim Marshall. For those who know german ... http://www.spiegel.de/archiv/suche/0...4-QV9FPSZBX0Y9 SklNK01BUlNIQUxMJkFfVD1CJkFfQj0xNiUyRTExJTJFMjAwNC ZBX1Y9MTclMkUxMCUyR TIwMDQmQV9aPTMwJkFfTz1TUE8rU1BJK0tTUCtVTkkmQV9TPTE _3,00.html (please mind the word-wrap) Kind regards, Eike |
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#3
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Patrick Turner wrote:
"Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE" wrote: [some stuff that is now snipped] Besides: There would be no semiconductor devices without vacuum technology. ;-) We can't be sure of that. Sooner or later some dude would have persisted with experiments on germanium long enough to make a transistor. That happened of course in about 1947, but without tubes and electronics occuring first, perhaps transistors may have been invented 20 years prior to 1947, [snip] Patrick Turner. Hi Pat: I forgot to put the "beware, wet paint" sign on - sorry. I was referring to the high-vacuum pumps, which are needed for the photo processes, for the diffusion and metal vaporizing for manufacturing semiconductors. ;-) Ever so kind regards, Eike |
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#4
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ummmm, excuse me
Fleming invented the rectifier, but DeForest invent the audion, aka the triode, i.e. the first AMPLIFIER this was by far the bigger breakthough it's seems Mr. DeForest gets no respect in death, much like he was screwed over in life. and who the hell is this bogus "American Vacuum Society"?? anyone here ever heard of them? surely if they are having their "51st" annual symposium, I would think a ton of guys here would be familiar with them unless they are BO-GUS well, anyways, it seems the big party needs to be in 2006, on the anniversery of the Deforest's AMPLIFIER, which was truly the father of the transistor, integrated circuit, computers, radios, cell phones, TV's, etc. and almost every high tech device we use today. "Today, November 16, 2004 has been declared as the centennial of the birth of modern electronics by the American Vacuum Society. As the AIP Physics News Update reports, this marks 'British scientist John Ambrose Fleming's 1904 invention of the first practical electronic device. Known as the thermionic diode, this first simple vacuum tube, containing only two electrodes, could be used to convert an alternating current (AC) to a direct current (DC).' Today's celebration takes place as part of the AVS's 51st Annual Symposium & Exhibition in Anaheim, CA. Being a guitar player myself, I've come to truly appreciate the technology of the vacuum tube every time I crank up my amplifier. This 100-year-old grandfather of electronics, used by musicians and audiophiles across the world, has proven that profound advances in technology do not always render old technologies obsolete."' |
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#5
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fire bottles wrote: ummmm, excuse me Fleming invented the rectifier, but DeForest invent the audion, aka the triode, i.e. the first AMPLIFIER this was by far the bigger breakthough it's seems Mr. DeForest gets no respect in death, much like he was screwed over in life. and who the hell is this bogus "American Vacuum Society"?? anyone here ever heard of them? surely if they are having their "51st" annual symposium, I would think a ton of guys here would be familiar with them unless they are BO-GUS well, anyways, it seems the big party needs to be in 2006, on the anniversery of the Deforest's AMPLIFIER, which was truly the father of the transistor, integrated circuit, computers, radios, cell phones, TV's, etc. and almost every high tech device we use today. How about the jet engine? JLS |
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#6
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well, anyways, it seems the big party needs to be in 2006, on the
anniversery of the Deforest's AMPLIFIER, which was truly the father of the transistor, integrated circuit, computers, radios, cell phones, TV's, etc. and almost every high tech device we use today. Well, like Col. Potter said, "HORSE HOCKEY". Deforest may have stuck the grid in there, BUT he had no idea how to use it. Edwin Armstrong is the true father of everything you listed above. Ron |
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#7
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fire bottles wrote:
and who the hell is this bogus "American Vacuum Society"?? Why not let them explain it to you? http://www.avs.org/inside.history.aspx anyone here ever heard of them? I nave. And I am sure there are others here... surely if they are having their "51st" annual symposium, I would think a ton of guys here would be familiar with them unless they are BO-GUS If by "bo-gus" you mean "not a radio collector or audiophile organization", then I guess you would be correct. But they have a long history as a scientific society, and would be known to most people in any area of research that involves high vacuum work.  Bob Weiss N2IXK |
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#8
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#9
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Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE wrote:
Patrick Turner wrote: "Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE" wrote: [some stuff that is now snipped] Besides: There would be no semiconductor devices without vacuum technology. ;-) We can't be sure of that. Sooner or later some dude would have persisted with experiments on germanium long enough to make a transistor. That happened of course in about 1947, but without tubes and electronics occuring first, perhaps transistors may have been invented 20 years prior to 1947, [snip] Patrick Turner. Hi Pat: I forgot to put the "beware, wet paint" sign on - sorry. I was referring to the high-vacuum pumps, which are needed for the photo processes, for the diffusion and metal vaporizing for manufacturing semiconductors. ;-) Ever so kind regards, Eike Not to mention the induction heaters needed for melting and refining semiconductors---powered by big honking tubes... Bob Weiss N2IXK |
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#10
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:59:12 -0500 "fire bottles"
wrote: and who the hell is this bogus "American Vacuum Society"?? anyone here ever heard of them? It's an organization, part of APS (American Physical Society) I believe, whose members study and use high vacuum in scientific research. The APS is the organizarion that physicists belong to. The AVS has nothing to do with vacuum tubes, at least not any more, but I suspect that they had a big hand in developing vacuum tubes in the early days. There was a tremendous amount of science in the art of making vacuum tubes, mainly in the vacuum compatable materials and the cathode materials. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- |
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#11
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Deforest may have stuck the grid in there, BUT he had no idea how to use it. Edwin Armstrong is the true father of everything you listed above. As I understand the history, DeForest was something of a hardware hacker, trying stuff until he got something that did something interesting. And to patent an invention, all you need to do is to describe a recipe so that any person skilled in the art can reproduce the invention. You don't need to know all the ins and outs (the physics of what's going on inside the tube), but it helps if you do. DeForest found that a grid between the cathode and plate could make an amplifying device, and recognized that that would be useful in radio work. That in itself would be an important step. Others who knew more physics and such refined the tube and were able to make better tubes and tube circuits. This sort of thing is common in inventions, the first example of something is usually crude and sub-optimal. Ever see that transistor the guys at the phone company first made? No one person gave us radio as we know it, it was a chain of inventors and engineers. And someone else would have invented the triode if DeForest didn't. |
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#13
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Robert Casey said:
No one person gave us radio as we know it, it was a chain of inventors and engineers. And someone else would have invented the triode if DeForest didn't. Like von Lieben in Germany in 1906, unaware from DeForest's attempts. Look up "Relais für undulierende Ströme" on Google. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
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#14
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Ever see that transistor the guys at the phone company first made? It used fishhooks for the connections IIRC. Reminds me of a comedy TV show called "Get Smart". The characters were spies. One time they were walking through a spy museum. One of them held up this large (about 6" in diameter) black circular thing. "The first microdot," he said. -- Fred Gilham "I'm an expert at installing free software. I've installed software packages that had 412 steps, the first two of which were 'Remove small children and animals from the premises' and 'Don protective gloves and mask'. If you made a mistake you had to go back to the very beginning, including getting the kids and pets back in the house." |
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#15
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"Syl's Old Radioz" wrote in message ...
"fire bottles" a écrit dans le message de news: ... the Deforest's AMPLIFIER, which was truly the father of the transistor, integrated circuit, computers, radios, cell phones, TV's, etc. and almost every high tech device we use today. I don't think so... John Bardeen, Walter H. Brattain and William B. Shockley should be credited as the grand-fathers of the "solid state", not DeForest. Syl I read somewhere on the net......terribly sorry I dont have a link..... but I read a while back where someone actually obtained a patent for a semiconductor transistor in the thirties......I think...and it may have been posted in this group.......I remember checking out the link just didnt save it .... I dont think the patentor??? ever built a devise but the theory was pretty much laid out. |
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#16
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#17
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I dont think the patentor??? ever built a devise but the theory was pretty much laid out. Sounds Tesla-ish -Bill |
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#18
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Hi,
Syl wrote: You're right. It was Lilienfeld, 1924. Here's a link with a copy of his 1930 solid state amplifier patent: http://www.todaysengineer.org/May03/history.asp That's a good reference. There was also an article by J.B. Johnson (who knew a bit about solid-state physics) in Physics Today, May 1964. According to Johnson, Lilienfeld's design could never have worked, because of the materials specified (not the purity, but the materials themselves). Lilienfeld made more substantial contributions to field-emission theory. I used to correspond with a man who worked under Lilienfeld around 1930 at Ergon Research Lab, Malden, Mass, a spinoff of Amrad. He even sent me a couple of snapshots of the Doctor. That work, and much of Lilienfeld's later effort, was on capacitor electrolytes. 73, Alan |
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#19
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"cornytheclown" a écrit dans le message de news:
I read somewhere on the net......terribly sorry I dont have a link..... but I read a while back where someone actually obtained a patent for a semiconductor transistor in the thirties...... You're right. It was Lilienfeld, 1924. Here's a link with a copy of his 1930 solid state amplifier patent: http://www.todaysengineer.org/May03/history.asp Syl --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 2004-11-15 |
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#20
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Syl's Old Radioz wrote: "cornytheclown" a écrit dans le message de news: I read somewhere on the net......terribly sorry I dont have a link..... but I read a while back where someone actually obtained a patent for a semiconductor transistor in the thirties...... You're right. It was Lilienfeld, 1924. Here's a link with a copy of his 1930 solid state amplifier patent: http://www.todaysengineer.org/May03/history.asp The patent including the block diagram of Lilienfeld's radio would have been a flop, since even if his unknown device worked at all there would have been silence from the radio, since there is no diode detector circuit shown. By 1930, considerable investment had been made in vacuum tube technology. The last thing anyone wanted in the industry was something to ruin the investment. Transformer winders hated the use of more reliable resistors and capacitors. But electronics has always been a flow of development, whether entrepreneurs liked the discoveries or not didn't stop progress. We are now being told the world is on the brink of applied nano technology, and nano robots and substances look like revolutionizing life for all of us. So far the idea that a pair of trousers made from some you beaut nano fabric won't stain when you spill your coffee is all I have seen of nano tech. Just an idea, ahead of its time, like Linienfeld's was in 1930. 17 years had to pass before a transistor came, then another 10 years for it to become a threat to tubes, then another 10 for people to start mumbling about computers, and then another 33 years before I could afford to buy a PC that mostly does nice cheap telegrams. Maybe I will be able to get a Marilyn Monroe lookalike nano robot to look after me when I am old. Maybe a nano transplanted brain. AlthoughI think I had one of those, I'd need a nanny. But I think all this crap is beyond my life span. Death and taxes will intervene. Patrick Turner. Syl --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 2004-11-15 |
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#21
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Patrick Turner wrote:
The patent including the block diagram of Lilienfeld's radio would have been a flop, since even if his unknown device worked at all there would have been silence from the radio, since there is no diode detector circuit shown. The diode is a little hard to see on the diagram in the magazine, but it is there. In the diagram's Figure 3, it is item 26 at the input to the third transistor. It is easier to see on the scan of the original diagram at the Patent Trademark Office. The text of the patent is not available, which is unfortunate. I suspect that the diagram was intended to illustrate functionality at a block diagram level, rather than a ready-to-build schematic. For example, only a single tuned circuit is shown, no power-supply bypassing is shown, and no detector bypass (downstrem of the diode) is shown. As Mr Spock would have said, "Fascinating!" Bill Jeffrey |
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#22
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"Patrick Turner" a écrit dans le message de news:
Syl's Old Radioz wrote: "cornytheclown" a écrit dans le message de news: I read somewhere on the net......terribly sorry I dont have a link..... but I read a while back where someone actually obtained a patent for a semiconductor transistor in the thirties...... You're right. It was Lilienfeld, 1924. Here's a link with a copy of his 1930 solid state amplifier patent: http://www.todaysengineer.org/May03/history.asp The patent including the block diagram of Lilienfeld's radio would have been a flop, since even if his unknown device worked at all there would have been silence from the radio, since there is no diode detector circuit shown. It's right there, item 26. Whether you "believed" that it worked or not (there is a comment about this in the text) doesn't change the fact that "someone named Lilienfeld" thought and patented a solid-state FET in the mid 20ies, well before 1947. Syl --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 2004-11-15 |
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#23
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"Syl's Old Radioz" wrote in message ... "cornytheclown" a écrit dans le message de news: I read somewhere on the net......terribly sorry I dont have a link..... but I read a while back where someone actually obtained a patent for a semiconductor transistor in the thirties...... You're right. It was Lilienfeld, 1924. Here's a link with a copy of his 1930 solid state amplifier patent: http://www.todaysengineer.org/May03/history.asp Syl --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 2004-11-15 Curious that the article claims he was Polish born, see the following, http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/...lilienfeld.htm Werner |
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#24
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The American Vacuum Society is a well known group,
akin to the IEEE for those in the vacuum electronics field. As for the first patenting of the transistor many say Heil was the first. http://www.midnightscience.com/_web/000008dc.htm It was a field effect type of device. Mike "fire bottles" wrote in message ... ummmm, excuse me Fleming invented the rectifier, but DeForest invent the audion, aka the triode, i.e. the first AMPLIFIER this was by far the bigger breakthough it's seems Mr. DeForest gets no respect in death, much like he was screwed over in life. and who the hell is this bogus "American Vacuum Society"?? anyone here ever heard of them? surely if they are having their "51st" annual symposium, I would think a ton of guys here would be familiar with them unless they are BO-GUS well, anyways, it seems the big party needs to be in 2006, on the anniversery of the Deforest's AMPLIFIER, which was truly the father of the transistor, integrated circuit, computers, radios, cell phones, TV's, etc. and almost every high tech device we use today. "Today, November 16, 2004 has been declared as the centennial of the birth of modern electronics by the American Vacuum Society. As the AIP Physics News Update reports, this marks 'British scientist John Ambrose Fleming's 1904 invention of the first practical electronic device. Known as the thermionic diode, this first simple vacuum tube, containing only two electrodes, could be used to convert an alternating current (AC) to a direct current (DC).' Today's celebration takes place as part of the AVS's 51st Annual Symposium & Exhibition in Anaheim, CA. Being a guitar player myself, I've come to truly appreciate the technology of the vacuum tube every time I crank up my amplifier. This 100-year-old grandfather of electronics, used by musicians and audiophiles across the world, has proven that profound advances in technology do not always render old technologies obsolete."' |
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