Regarding the Tonight Show, I know Chuck Findley is a fine player but I
noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into clip-on mics. I
would think they've got the best stuff, but to my ears, those clip-ons
always have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere near as good as the horns
sounded on the Carson Tonight show. I don't know what the section used but
I'm pretty sure Doc was blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic. I don't think
Leno's band originally used those clip ons when Sal Marquez was the trumpet.
I believe they've adopted them along the way.

The times I've heard Chicago on the Today Show, the horns use clip ons also,
with the same results. It's not as bad on the sax, but really noticeable on
the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?

Doc wrote:
but I noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into
clip-on mics.
to my ears, those clip-ons have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere
near as good (as)
blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic.. It's not as bad on the sax, but
really noticeable on
the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?

mic position is critical, when placed right it, allows the full sound
of the instrument
to reach "maturity" and it is this not fully grown sound that you
hear.
it is a compromise, the amount of control the audio engineer has
is better with these clip on mics then with a mic on a mic stand.
(the mic/horn position is fixed, the musician is free to roam)

dale

Doc wrote:
Regarding the Tonight Show, I know Chuck Findley is a fine player but I
noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into clip-on mics. I
would think they've got the best stuff, but to my ears, those clip-ons
always have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere near as good as the horns
sounded on the Carson Tonight show. I don't know what the section used but
I'm pretty sure Doc was blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic. I don't think
Leno's band originally used those clip ons when Sal Marquez was the trumpet.
I believe they've adopted them along the way.

The times I've heard Chicago on the Today Show, the horns use clip ons also,
with the same results. It's not as bad on the sax, but really noticeable on
the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?

You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are also
less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they have
really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out of
the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything else.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Doc wrote:
Regarding the Tonight Show, I know Chuck Findley is a fine player
but I
noticed the other night that they've got him blowing into clip-on
mics. I
would think they've got the best stuff, but to my ears, those
clip-ons
always have this funny, stuffy sound, nowhere near as good as the
horns
sounded on the Carson Tonight show. I don't know what the section
used but
I'm pretty sure Doc was blowing into an old RCA ribbon mic. I don't
think
Leno's band originally used those clip ons when Sal Marquez was the
trumpet.
I believe they've adopted them along the way.

The times I've heard Chicago on the Today Show, the horns use clip
ons also,
with the same results. It's not as bad on the sax, but really
noticeable on
the trumpet and 'bone. Apparently that's as good as they get?

You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are
also
less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they
have
really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out
of
the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything
else.
--scott

There are additional issues as well. Up close to the bell like that,
wired or wireless, the dynamic range is immense, and the SPLs are
stupid high. Not a whole lot of mics will handle an up-close trumpet
gracefully. Then, there's the issue of wireless (if they are using
one). All analog wireless systems compand the audio, which further
reduces quality and does not fare well with signals like trumpet.

I agree with Scott that sometimes GBF is the most important issue, but
in this case, on TV, they should be able to design around it. It may
also be an issue of monitoring (i.e. the player wants to hear himself
at all costs). Nah - that never happens.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

Scott Dorsey wrote:
(since most of the sound doesn't come out of the bell)

This is certainly true with woodwinds and saxes - the sound comes out of
the last open hole on the instrument. Which means the sound only comes
out of the bell when the player has closed *all* the finger holes.

But with trumpets and 'bones, there are no finger holes. There is only
one exit for the sound - the bell of the instrument - with just the
length of tube changing. Unless the mic itself has a crap response, I
can't see how a good quality mic will sound worse when clipped on.

In the case of brass instruments (trumpet, 'bone, flugel etc.) and
assuming that a decent quality mic is being used, does a clipped mic
have to be placed at some critical distance from the bell?

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell. At
least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound different as
sound propagates.

Chris Whealy wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
(since most of the sound doesn't come out of the bell)

This is certainly true with woodwinds and saxes - the sound comes out
of
the last open hole on the instrument. Which means the sound only
comes
out of the bell when the player has closed *all* the finger holes.

But with trumpets and 'bones, there are no finger holes. There is
only
one exit for the sound - the bell of the instrument - with just the
length of tube changing. Unless the mic itself has a crap response,
I
can't see how a good quality mic will sound worse when clipped on.

In the case of brass instruments (trumpet, 'bone, flugel etc.) and
assuming that a decent quality mic is being used, does a clipped mic
have to be placed at some critical distance from the bell?

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

wrote:
This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell. At
least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound different as
sound propagates.


That's true, but even then, the average mic position for a horn player
is much closer to the instrument than any audience member.

The "things sound different as sound propagates" is true only to the
extent that the further away you are from the instrument, the less you
will hear its direct sound, and the more you will hear the general room
sound.

I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for the
horn section at our church.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is a
factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds like
dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.

In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement, makes
life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
ways to capture the horn.


Chris Whealy wrote:
wrote:
This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell. At
least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound
different as
sound propagates.


That's true, but even then, the average mic position for a horn
player
is much closer to the instrument than any audience member.

The "things sound different as sound propagates" is true only to the
extent that the further away you are from the instrument, the less
you
will hear its direct sound, and the more you will hear the general
room
sound.

I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for
the
horn section at our church.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

"Chris Whealy" wrote in message...

In the case of brass instruments (trumpet, 'bone, flugel etc.) and
assuming that a decent quality mic is being used, does a clipped mic
have to be placed at some critical distance from the bell?


Would three feet be ok? ;-)

DM

wrote:
There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is a
factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds like
dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.

OK, that makes sense

In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement, makes
life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
ways to capture the horn.

The problem we have is both one of limited space (we've got the entire
horn section in a relatively small area so they need to be reasonably
close mic'ed to give decent separation), plus the fact that a service
has to be both amplified for general PA in the church, but is also
recorded for TV broadcast.

We've ended up with a hybrid PA/recording setup. I think that under
these circumstances, clipped mics for the horns would be an acceptable
solution.

Thanks for you help

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

Would three feet be ok? ;-)


That would be the Shure "Long Arm" trumpet attachment - or is it AKG...?

:-P

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
but the words of the wise are quiet and few.
--

wrote:
There are parts of the direct sound at 2 inches you wouldn't normally
hear even at say 3 feet away. You hear a lot more spittle at 3 inches
for one thing. Plus the way a horn couples with the outside world is
a
factor. If you listen to a horn driver at 2 inches away it sounds
like
dog poo, get 6 feet away and it sounds like it should.

In most cases a clip on works just fine for sound reinforcement,
makes
life a lot easier. In a recording session though there a many better
ways to capture the horn.


Chris Whealy wrote:
wrote:
This is true. But no one listens to a trumpet right at the bell.
At
least anyone who wants to keep thier hearing. Things sound
different as
sound propagates.


That's true, but even then, the average mic position for a horn
player
is much closer to the instrument than any audience member.

The "things sound different as sound propagates" is true only to
the
extent that the further away you are from the instrument, the less
you
will hear its direct sound, and the more you will hear the general
room
sound.

I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for
the
horn section at our church.


The other factor is that with low frequencies, the trumpet is nearly an
omni radiator, and the higher the frequency of output, the more
directional (just like about everything else). The effect of this is
that for a given energy level, the trumpet will project much farther
with high frequencies, while at low frequencies, the energy is
dispersed much more quickly... so when you close mic a trumpet, you get
a lot more lows that you do from farther away.

When I was touring with the Air Force Jazz Band (Airmen of Note) I
would typically put a single mic between each two trumpet players. This
would place the mic a bit off axis (to avoid spittle sound) and a bit
further away. Sometimes, they asked to have a single mic for each
player, but the sound was far better with a mic per each two guys
(IMO).

The mic I used at the time was the Sennheiser MD409. Low profile (side
address) much more forgiving than a condenser mic, and a great sound on
horns. It's a shame they don't make them any more. Didn't try the e609
Silver (they weren't made yet at that time) but it may be worth an
audition.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

"Chris Whealy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I'd still like some clarification about the problems created by a
clipped mic, because this is a solution I have been considering for the
horn section at our church.

In non-technical terms, they sound like crap. Now, granted, this is coming
from a trumpet player who fools around with recording and who has spent a
fair amount of time fixating on the recorded sound of the trumpet. It's
possible that most of your church members won't know the difference. They
see trumpets, they hear a sound, it's good enough for them.

If you want to hear the difference in terms I believe anyone who doesn't
have an absolutely tin ear will understand, find a copy of one of the Carson
Tonight Shows, listen to the band, ideally where Doc takes a solo. Now
listen to the trumpet on the current Tonight Show. To me, it sounds like
night and day.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are also
less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they have
really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out of
the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything else.
--scott


Well, from Steven Allen until Leno's reign, the Tonight Show band seemed to
do fine with "real" mics for about 40 years. Btw, Findley used to play on
Carson's band and is a well respected session player. He can't possibly be
truly satisfied with what he sounds like with that mic. I guess he's making
enough coin to not bitch about it too loudly if he's not.

Doc wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

You get better gain before feedback with the clip-ons, and they are also
less sensitive to performers with poor mike technique. Yes, they have
really awful tone quality (since most of the sound doesn't come out of
the bell), but sometimes the feedback issue outweighs everything else.

Well, from Steven Allen until Leno's reign, the Tonight Show band seemed to
do fine with "real" mics for about 40 years. Btw, Findley used to play on
Carson's band and is a well respected session player. He can't possibly be
truly satisfied with what he sounds like with that mic. I guess he's making
enough coin to not bitch about it too loudly if he's not.

So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
used to be in previous incarnations of the band?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well, from Steven Allen until Leno's reign, the Tonight Show band
seemed to
do fine with "real" mics for about 40 years. Btw, Findley used to
play on
Carson's band and is a well respected session player. He can't
possibly be
truly satisfied with what he sounds like with that mic. I guess he's
making
enough coin to not bitch about it too loudly if he's not.

So what is different?

he had to sit in front of the trombones too long?
he doesn't watch the show?

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
used to be in previous incarnations of the band?

No, as I've been whining about previously in this thread, the trumpet sound
is severely lacking due to that clip on mic.

"Karl Winkler" wrote:

[...] in this case, on TV, they should be able to design around it.



Ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa! Ohmigod Karl, that was a good one! Anyone
in TV giving **** One about making life easier for audio! Oh man,
that's hilarious! *cough!*

The audio mixer on that show is obviously incompetent. Obviously the
horns should sound like their miked from a distance even when using a
clip-on and the host should be able to stand right in the middle of the
band but still be heard whispering while they're playing full blast,
there must not be ANY feedback under any circumstances but it should
sound like a Tommy Dorsey concert as heard from the balcony, and we
can't have any mic stands because they look bad on camera, and it can't
sound "echoey" (sic) but make sure we can hear the audience and so what
if the entire set is glass and tile with nary even a *thought* to
acoustic treatment and let's seat the host in the audience but make sure
you mute her/his mic whenever (s)he says anything not intended for air
(it's up to YOU to know when that should be) but make sure the applause
level doesn't change when you kill the host mic and...

Design around it for TV... I gotta remember that one! g

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

can't have any mic stands because they look bad on camera

this explains it all, it is the "how it looks on camera"
aesthetic!!!!

can't have those phallic shaped devices on camera.....

dale

Doc wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

So what is different? Are the stage levels outrageously higher than they
used to be in previous incarnations of the band?

No, as I've been whining about previously in this thread, the trumpet sound
is severely lacking due to that clip on mic.

Right, but WHAT is different that caused them to go the clip-on mike route?
I am assuming it wasn't a random decision, but they did it to solve a
particular problem (like one brought on by higher stage levels).
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

Right, but WHAT is different that caused them to go the clip-on mike
route?
I am assuming it wasn't a random decision, but they did it to solve a
particular problem (like one brought on by higher stage levels).

They used to have a full big band, so it seems the levels could hardly be
any higher nor could the isolation issues be any more difficult than they
were with Carson's band. I have a hard time believing it's for any reason
other than expediency. Someone just doesn't want to be bothered. It's not
like they're dancing around up there. Sometimes they'll join in with the
band brought in by a musical guest, but so what? Surely it can't be that big
of a logistics issue to move them around.

they are mixing 5.1 dolby
and need absolute control
or it is how it sounds on their car stereo when in trade school.

(they are running auto tune, with a little eq at around.....)

dale