Hi RATs!

Inspired by another Subject:, I thought I would play devil's advocate for the
sheer joy of being a smarty pants earhead with an attitude

OK, so audio circuits and components have some measureable, and repeatable,
characteristics. Fine. Where the train went off the tracks and up the dragon's
butt was when someone had the great notion that higher, or lower, as
applicable, measurements Must sound good. They were real, and could be printed
on the box and the advertising, so, what moron would doubt the obvious
conclusion that they were God's way of picking out good ear toys?

Sigh. Listen to stuff and decide what, if anything, you enjoy hearing.

Do you need a meter to tell you if you like a piece of music or a performance?
They used to put a meter on the crowd's applause to tell which was the best
performance. The idea has some mob appeal, but, when you are finally alone with
your system, it lacks a certain, what is the phrase? Oh, yes! It lacks a
f***ing clue about what is going on here and now 8^)

I have had a friend tell me with great joy about how wonderful it was to listen
to music with the amplifier in constant overload, as indicated by a red light


Yes, loud can be fun. Distortion can be fun. But, contrary to some zealots'
loud opinions, none of us knows which form of fun is the absolute best for
everyone.

I may or may not enjoy a performance or a system, but, thinking that if you
measure everything very carefully, you can be sure to please me every time is
just lame. I am not a finite state machine. Sometimes I like things, sometimes
I don't. I am not "in error" in either situation. I am fickle, and flawed. That
is what is so great about "Can't get no staisfaction!"

Yes, we can measure and test and quantify. It is often fun.

Please do not think it is the only True Path to audio joy.

Each of us must find our own way.

Or die trying

Happy Ears!
Al



Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

This would troll better in rec.audio.tech I think. Tubes aren't generally
associated with linearity.

"TubeGarden" wrote in message
...
Hi RATs!

Inspired by another Subject:, I thought I would play devil's advocate for
the
sheer joy of being a smarty pants earhead with an attitude

OK, so audio circuits and components have some measureable, and
repeatable,
characteristics. Fine. Where the train went off the tracks and up the
dragon's
butt was when someone had the great notion that higher, or lower, as
applicable, measurements Must sound good. They were real, and could be
printed
on the box and the advertising, so, what moron would doubt the obvious
conclusion that they were God's way of picking out good ear toys?

Sigh. Listen to stuff and decide what, if anything, you enjoy hearing.

Do you need a meter to tell you if you like a piece of music or a
performance?
They used to put a meter on the crowd's applause to tell which was the
best
performance. The idea has some mob appeal, but, when you are finally alone
with
your system, it lacks a certain, what is the phrase? Oh, yes! It lacks a
f***ing clue about what is going on here and now 8^)

I have had a friend tell me with great joy about how wonderful it was to
listen
to music with the amplifier in constant overload, as indicated by a red
light


Yes, loud can be fun. Distortion can be fun. But, contrary to some
zealots'
loud opinions, none of us knows which form of fun is the absolute best for
everyone.

I may or may not enjoy a performance or a system, but, thinking that if
you
measure everything very carefully, you can be sure to please me every time
is
just lame. I am not a finite state machine. Sometimes I like things,
sometimes
I don't. I am not "in error" in either situation. I am fickle, and flawed.
That
is what is so great about "Can't get no staisfaction!"

Yes, we can measure and test and quantify. It is often fun.

Please do not think it is the only True Path to audio joy.

Each of us must find our own way.

Or die trying

Happy Ears!
Al



Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Hi RATs!

This would troll better in rec.audio.tech

Ha ha ha! I say it doesn't matter and you tell me 'tell someone who cares'

It is possible to enjoy tubes without using meters for anything but matching
parts and checking operating voltages / currents.

That is all

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

"Sugarite" said:

This would troll better in rec.audio.tech I think. Tubes aren't generally
associated with linearity.

Look at the plate curves of an AD1 or 2A3 and come back to me to say
this again with a straight face.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Sugarite doesn't know that triodes without any
external loops of applied feedback are far more
linear than transistors or fets without any loops of FB.
Its easy to make a balanced differential amp with 6SN7
which has only 0.01% of thd at 5vrms output from each anode.
And no FB.
Try that with bjts some time, you will be surprised.

But if lots of FB is applied to either triode of bjt circuits,
then either will measure a lot less thd than 0.01%.

One wonders if the poster is predjudiced against tubes.

It has been established about 52 years ago that tube amp
thd of 2H below 0.5% is inaudible to audiences gathered to find out about.

0.5% of crossover thd from PP transistors would be quite awful,
due to the spectral content of the switching noise.
This is better kept to to below 0.01% at even low output levels.

I suggest that most tube power amps used with 20 dB of global nfb
such as a 52 year old design by DTN Williamson would have
about 0.02% of thd, mainly 3H, at 1/10 of the maximum output used
by most listeners, ie, 1.6 watts, even using today's speakers,
let alone the speakers of 1955, which needed on average
about 3 times less power for the same sound level.
Williamson's amp measured only 0.1% at 16 watts.

I suppose if you have trouble with my figures,
then you listen to music with a troubled mind because you know the thd
measures higher than some gee whiz solid state amp.
But then if you like rock and roll and pop music, like 95% of
the population, you don't mind the 5%+ of thd deliberately
inserted to the music by electric guitarists, et all.
Most such musicians use PP tube amps, whose thd and IMD
is appalling because of deliberate over loading of the tubes.
Ppl like the sound of it, but its less gross than that you'd get from a
similarly
overloaded solid state amp.

I myself have long outgrown any great attraction to
much pop music, and prefer classical
played on equipment which runs nowhere near
its overload level, and the question of linearity
is entirely irrelevant, because whether the circuit is
SS or tubed, the thd/imd is so low.

Tube Garden is right, " Each of us must find our own way. "

Patrick Turner.

Sugarite wrote:

This would troll better in rec.audio.tech I think. Tubes aren't generally
associated with linearity.

"TubeGarden" wrote in message
...
Hi RATs!

Inspired by another Subject:, I thought I would play devil's advocate for
the
sheer joy of being a smarty pants earhead with an attitude

OK, so audio circuits and components have some measureable, and
repeatable,
characteristics. Fine. Where the train went off the tracks and up the
dragon's
butt was when someone had the great notion that higher, or lower, as
applicable, measurements Must sound good. They were real, and could be
printed
on the box and the advertising, so, what moron would doubt the obvious
conclusion that they were God's way of picking out good ear toys?

Sigh. Listen to stuff and decide what, if anything, you enjoy hearing.

Do you need a meter to tell you if you like a piece of music or a
performance?
They used to put a meter on the crowd's applause to tell which was the
best
performance. The idea has some mob appeal, but, when you are finally alone
with
your system, it lacks a certain, what is the phrase? Oh, yes! It lacks a
f***ing clue about what is going on here and now 8^)

I have had a friend tell me with great joy about how wonderful it was to
listen
to music with the amplifier in constant overload, as indicated by a red
light


Yes, loud can be fun. Distortion can be fun. But, contrary to some
zealots'
loud opinions, none of us knows which form of fun is the absolute best for
everyone.

I may or may not enjoy a performance or a system, but, thinking that if
you
measure everything very carefully, you can be sure to please me every time
is
just lame. I am not a finite state machine. Sometimes I like things,
sometimes
I don't. I am not "in error" in either situation. I am fickle, and flawed.
That
is what is so great about "Can't get no staisfaction!"

Yes, we can measure and test and quantify. It is often fun.

Please do not think it is the only True Path to audio joy.

Each of us must find our own way.

Or die trying

Happy Ears!
Al



Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Sander deWaal wrote:

"Sugarite" said:

This would troll better in rec.audio.tech I think. Tubes aren't generally
associated with linearity.

Look at the plate curves of an AD1 or 2A3 and come back to me to say
this again with a straight face.

Well take a look at
http://www.one-electron.com/SEA1.pdf
and tell me if the 3 x paralleled 203 tubes are particualrly linear.
its got no FB, and has thd = 1% at 1 watt, and 5% at 10 watts.

But the 2A3 as a driver for 300B with a CCS load is far more linear.
A PP amp with 4 x 2A3 would make a very much cleaner 1 watt in comparison
to the SE amp, even without FB, and have an AB ceiling of 20 watts.

Patrick Turner.




--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Hi RATs!

Marketplace statistics! This is RAT!

There is only one system playing in my house Well, at any given time.

It is 100% SET, or not.

I am only interested in good sound in my room. I share what I find to encourage
others in their rooms.

Marketplace statistics! Sheesh. Get a life

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

(TubeGarden) declaimed:
in ,

: Hi RATs!
:
: Inspired by another Subject:, I thought I would play devil's advocate for the
: sheer joy of being a smarty pants earhead with an attitude
:
: OK, so audio circuits and components have some measureable, and repeatable,
: characteristics. Fine. Where the train went off the tracks and up the dragon's
: butt was when someone had the great notion that higher, or lower, as
: applicable, measurements Must sound good. They were real, and could be printed
: on the box and the advertising, so, what moron would doubt the obvious
: conclusion that they were God's way of picking out good ear toys?
:
: Sigh. Listen to stuff and decide what, if anything, you enjoy hearing.
:
: Do you need a meter to tell you if you like a piece of music or a performance?
: They used to put a meter on the crowd's applause to tell which was the best
: performance. The idea has some mob appeal, but, when you are finally alone with
: your system, it lacks a certain, what is the phrase? Oh, yes! It lacks a
: f***ing clue about what is going on here and now 8^)
:
: I have had a friend tell me with great joy about how wonderful it was to listen
: to music with the amplifier in constant overload, as indicated by a red light
:
:
: Yes, loud can be fun. Distortion can be fun. But, contrary to some zealots'
: loud opinions, none of us knows which form of fun is the absolute best for
: everyone.
:
: I may or may not enjoy a performance or a system, but, thinking that if you
: measure everything very carefully, you can be sure to please me every time is
: just lame. I am not a finite state machine. Sometimes I like things, sometimes
: I don't. I am not "in error" in either situation. I am fickle, and flawed. That
: is what is so great about "Can't get no staisfaction!"
:
: Yes, we can measure and test and quantify. It is often fun.
:
: Please do not think it is the only True Path to audio joy.
:
: Each of us must find our own way.
:
: Or die trying
:
: Happy Ears!
: Al

Dear Al,

Lovely long post!
Good to see you so bright!

However ... you mis-spelled "staid faction" ;=}))

Never Mind ...

Best Regards,

RdM

Hi RATs!

I can't get no ...

nor spell any ...

Sigh.

Happy Earth!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Sugarite wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
Sugarite doesn't know that triodes without any
external loops of applied feedback are far more
linear than transistors or fets without any loops of FB.
[snip]

Not only did I know that, but I also know that single-ended triode designs
constitute less than .1% of the tube marketplace. Like I said, tubes aren't
(present tense) generally associated with linearity, which doesn't mean that
I don't think they can achieve excellent linearity.

Well, never mind my conclusions in my response.
But linearity today is associated today with opamps and power amps using
transistors which are entirely dependant on NFB loops to
produce linearity.
Most people in the world, ie, the 99.9%
of the market which doesn't buy tubed gear have forgotten what a triode is,
and just don't realise how linear they are without any loop FB,
if set up with CCS loads, or in a balanced circuit.



Here's another one for you:
Linearity isn't generally associated with good sound.

I think that's too simplistic statement, and as such, has little meaning by
itself.
The sound does vary with linearity, but how much non linearity
can be tolerated depends on the spectra produced by it,
and the amount of it.
Some of my best sounding tube amps also produce
only 0.02% of N&D at the 1 watt level, which is where 99%
of the folks I know do their listening.
Maybe drum beats reach 3W, but only for a split second, and not long enough
for them to make up their minds about the sonic accuracy.
Fortunately, they have some idea about judging the overall performance in
subjective
ways that is impossible for a man with a meter or CRO to discern.



So now what else do I know and not know?

I have not the feintest idea.
You tell me.

Patrick Turner.

Hi RATs!

Yup. Hence the topic. Good sound and happy meters are not congruent sets

Happy Ears!
Al

The suggestion that all three
amps are absolutely linear is absurd. They each sound fantastic though,
which is all that counts.



Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Sugarite wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:
Sugarite doesn't know that triodes without any
external loops of applied feedback are far more
linear than transistors or fets without any loops of FB.
[snip]

Here's another one for you:
Linearity isn't generally associated with good sound.

I think that's too simplistic statement, and as such, has little meaning
by
itself.

So now what else do I know and not know?

I have not the feintest idea.

Exactly. I don't appreciate people posting publicly what I do or don't know
based on a simplistic statement.

I remember a foreman where I was employed at age 25,
and he said to me once, "stop speaking in riddles man,
say what you mean, and mean what you say".
I later became a foreman like him and I tried to make sure
that nothing I said could be misinterpreted.



Personally I find the idea of linearity from a tube amp to be somewhat
humerous, since no tube amp produces the same sound from two different
brands of the same tube, not that it isn't an honorable objective, just not
to the obsessive level one finds in rec.audio.tech.

That is my finding, especially with medium U triodes used in preamps
without any loop FB.

But if you measured the tubes involved in such subjective tests,
you'd find they were "linear enough" to qualify being hi-fi items.

Myself and two friends
each own the same "ultralinear" class A tube amps (Audio Innovations S500),
but from different years and with different tubes. We occasionally get them
together and mix & match tubes, and time and time again each amp and tube
type has a unique contribution to the sound. The suggestion that all three
amps are absolutely linear is absurd.

Absolutely linear? nothing is that, not even a Halcro SS amp
with 0.0001% thd near full power.
But it does mean that the thd or the imd as a result
would be utterly inaudible at 10 watts.
But as one critic said, "Ah, Halcro, it like 300B, just go louder".

They each sound fantastic though,
which is all that counts.

True, but nevertheless, I do concern myself with basic ideas of linearity.
It should be linear "enough" and its the "enoughness factor"
that folks should remember when developing a system, and
everything has to be good enough, or else you are
condemned by the weakest link.

Most UL amps at a couple of watts make less than 0.05% thd,
which to me seems OK. This means if you have
4vrms into 8 ohms, then thd = 2mV, which is inaudible
if its just a bit of 2H and 3H.
Somehow the different tubes sound different, and its a little inexplicable
according to thd numbers.

At one vinyard in France, where the best champagne is made,
they get a young viginal girl to sit astride the vat of freshly crushed
grapes, and she takes a **** into it.

The quality of the wine is difficult to explain in terms of
the chemical processes.

Patrick Turner.

Hi RATs!

Linear means straight line. A theoretical concept, the shortest distance
between two points.

Every straight line is linear, but, every linear line is not the same line.

Two straight lines are both perfectly linear. They may or may not be the same
line.

Every linear circuit does not sound like every other linear circuit. Thank God!

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

TubeGarden wrote:

Hi RATs!

Linear means straight line. A theoretical concept, the shortest distance
between two points.

Are you taking into account Einstein's ideas about gravity,
and Hawking's ideas about time?

I suspect your statements are simplistic....



Every straight line is linear, but, every linear line is not the same line.

Depends, the curvature of space might spoil such a concept's reality..



Two straight lines are both perfectly linear. They may or may not be the same
line.

Depends on direction and distance, and proximity to a black hole.



Every linear circuit does not sound like every other linear circuit. Thank God!

Two straight lines could appear very differently
approaching the speed of light.

God may be there, or maybe not, and may or may not accept thanks.

The dimensions of the universe, its apparent shapes, and apparently
straight lines are only how we see them, and the truth is elsewhere.

This uncertainty should not create depression in the human mind,
which should not worry and just be happy.

If we die tomorrow, with uncertainty about linearity, its not a problem;
what we are will be recycled, and be reassembled into a future
which will keep questioning itself, as it dies, and renews, simultaneously,
since the function of intelligence is knowledge, and the simple becomes complex,
and then we can be at ease about being certain about uncertainty, because
not everything can be contemplated.

Patrick Turner.



Happy Ears!
Al

Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Two straight lines could appear very differently
approaching the speed of light.



Funny you mention that! I was listening to my PP-UL-6BQ5 amp the
other day, while approaching the speed of light. I found I had
to re-bias a LOT as things shrank in the direction of motion..
weird huh?

EC wrote:


Two straight lines could appear very differently
approaching the speed of light.



Funny you mention that! I was listening to my PP-UL-6BQ5 amp the
other day, while approaching the speed of light. I found I had
to re-bias a LOT as things shrank in the direction of motion..
weird huh?


It sounds like your TARDIS tachyon/chronon dampener
may be out of phase and need recalibration.

Regards
Mark

Mark Harriss said:

Two straight lines could appear very differently
approaching the speed of light.

Funny you mention that! I was listening to my PP-UL-6BQ5 amp the
other day, while approaching the speed of light. I found I had
to re-bias a LOT as things shrank in the direction of motion..
weird huh?

It sounds like your TARDIS tachyon/chronon dampener
may be out of phase and need recalibration.

Naah......everything was fine on warp 7.
Guess mr. Worf farted.

--
Mr Klipsch and Dr Bose are walking down opposite sides of the street,
approaching each other.
Klipsch cups his hands around his mouth, faces Bose and calls out :
"Hey, Bose, you still making those speakers"
Bose turns his head away, stuffs his scarf in his mouth and mutters :
"Yep" - Unknown poster in rec.audio.tubes

EC wrote:


Two straight lines could appear very differently
approaching the speed of light.


Funny you mention that! I was listening to my PP-UL-6BQ5 amp the
other day, while approaching the speed of light. I found I had
to re-bias a LOT as things shrank in the direction of motion..
weird huh?

D'yer think I could go that fast after eating Kellogs Cornflakes,
or do I need to eat spinach like Popeye?

Patrick Turner.

or do I need to eat spinach like Popeye?

Hi RATs!

.... Olive Oyl ...

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

TubeGarden wrote:

or do I need to eat spinach like Popeye?

Hi RATs!

... Olive Oyl ...

I thought all women caused nonlinearity in men's affairs......

Permissable and enjoyable, and necessary for the planet's
enjoyments and populatications,
but methinks the planet is in a state of runaway
non linear oscillations, and single minded ones at that, and thus
unbalanced,
and within 1,000 years the trends look quite grim......
Certainly grim for lions, tigers, and elephants, coral reefs,
and nearly all else.



Happy Ears!
Al

Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Hi RATs!

Think the future looks grim? You should have seen it here before life started


Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Think the future looks grim? You should have seen it here before life started


Happy Ears!
Al


Hey, I'm getting old enough to almost remember that!

Best Regards,
Steve

Check my web page .. A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/sbench101/"http://members.aol.com/sbench101/A
Remove the .gov to EMail me

TubeGarden wrote:

Hi RATs!

Think the future looks grim? You should have seen it here before life started


Cauldrons of boiling rocks everywhere for such a long time.....
But it negates life to see a return to an absense of it.


Patrick Turner.




Happy Ears!
Al

Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Hi RATs!

Life is splattered all about the univese. We party where and when we can. Only
sullen individuals are negated

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

TubeGarden wrote:

Hi RATs!

Life is splattered all about the univese.

I think I'll agree with you here.
But what we see when we see distant galaxies, which may be teeming with life
perhaps like our own milky way is the image of the distant past, since the light
has taken so
long to reach us. And what we see now may not exist, and the concept
of "now" is a surely a splattered one.

If we ask what happened before the big bang, or what immensity lies outside the
known
universe, we are in trouble with our limited ideas of space and time.

But don't you think we'd be mightily conceited if we thought
we were the only bit of life amoungst all the stars we know are out there?

Although Christ didn't say very much about time, space, or quantum theory,
religious nutters ever since Him have been trying to maintainn their control over
us
by limiting what we could believe in, eg, that the sun and all things went around
the earth, which God made. Then came the cruncher for the Church,
that really thre earth went around the sun, and then as discovery occurred
the regime of the Church waned.
I think something much bigger than ourselves, or anything we could imagine
has created in some way and resulted in existance of what we see and touch.
I also would say that whoever, whatever placed all of it at our disposal
has had a grand plan unfold over countless billions of years,
according to the laws of the physics invented to allow it to happen.

I have no problems with evolutionery theory.

I think evolution is, or has been God's grand way of creation,
and its not silly to think we evolved from apes who evolved from slime.
What's wrong with slime? People think no god would let man
evolve from slime. They say man was created in God's image.
Which man? what of sheilas? what of different races?
Why would the current form of man be how a god is constructed,
especially since he has never lived here on earth.
Perhaps on the many other planets where life teems,
or as you say is at least splattered, there are forms of intelligent slimes.
They may be a trifle touchy if we made contact and called them a lousy bunch
of slime balls, when all along they reckoned they were also made in God's image.
Whatever God is, its a big question.


We party where and when we can. Only
sullen individuals are negated

Indeed, and political parties abound, when they can, each
with their set of ideas which suits their logic,
and anyone who thinks different is a heretic.
We are trapped on our little blue ball of a planet, all having
to deal with who is in control, who often get very upset if they ain't in control.

Not too many burnings at stakes anymore, but plenty of
road deaths, with the occasional martyr bombing in Bagdad.

If any of the laws of physics don't suit you, there is not
any Godly ombudsman to register your complaints, and
alterations to the laws of physics cannot be applied retrospectively.
Personally, I'd like gravity to have less effect than it does,
so my knees and back wouldn't ache the way they do.

Anyone wanna travel to Mars with me?
Gravity is 38% less than earth,
so even the weakest could happily lug a decent tube amp around,
and your'e gonna need a heater up there anyhow.....
Making tubes up there would be easy,
there is nearly a ready made vacuum for an atmosphere.
This propels the idea that we should all wear space suits,
and get rid of all the air, then nobody would need to
have glass tubes for our amps, but then we'd all use headphones,
and unbottled 12AU7 power amps would be ample.

Patrick Turner.




Happy Ears!
Al

Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead