Hello all.

Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the
vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just
as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching, shrill-
as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more.

I don't say that to put anything or anyone down, I say that to attempt to
express what I do NOT want.

What I do want is something that takes care of business in a very pleasant,
very *accurate* and almost transparent nature.

My desire is not to wake the neighbors, or set off car alarms or enter
competitions. I want something that'd fill what my Kappa 6x9s don't do. I
don't want the slightest trace of boom.

My understanding is a slightly smaller-than-recommended sealed box will
help and that *anything* ported will be detrimental in the end.

Tell me if I'm dreaming or if I'm wrong, etc.

What are your thoughts?

Matt

Matt Bhame wrote
Hello all.

Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the
vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just
as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching,
shrill-
as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more.

I don't say that to put anything or anyone down, I say that to attempt to
express what I do NOT want.

What I do want is something that takes care of business in a very
pleasant,
very *accurate* and almost transparent nature.

My desire is not to wake the neighbors, or set off car alarms or enter
competitions. I want something that'd fill what my Kappa 6x9s don't do.
I
don't want the slightest trace of boom.

My understanding is a slightly smaller-than-recommended sealed box will
help and that *anything* ported will be detrimental in the end.

Tell me if I'm dreaming or if I'm wrong, etc.

What are your thoughts?

Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz (where
the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't move enough
air. I disagree with the slag about ported boxes though. A ported enclosure
will give a flatter response curve until you get to the tuning frequency and
then drop off VERY quickly after that, which actually would be a good thing
in your situation, even less output down in the BOOMy area. Would help to
get an amp with a subsonic filter on it.
Any comments on this opinion?

Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10". I thought
sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'?

What is a subsonic filter?


Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz
(where the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't
move enough air. I disagree with the slag about ported boxes though. A
ported enclosure will give a flatter response curve until you get to
the tuning frequency and then drop off VERY quickly after that, which
actually would be a good thing in your situation, even less output
down in the BOOMy area. Would help to get an amp with a subsonic
filter on it. Any comments on this opinion?

Matt Bhame wrote
Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10".

Basically, because you aren't interested in a great deal of volume (SPL), a
10" is probably overkill. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get one, just might not
be necessary to achieve the desired results.

I thought sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'?

No. Sealed doesn't fall off as quickly in the low freqency range (below
30Hz) and ported has a little extra kick near the tuning frequency and then
falls off rapidly. Feel free to ask more questions if "fall off" doesn't
mean anything to you.

What is a subsonic filter?

It can be part of an active crossover (which some amps have built in) which
cuts out the extremely low frequencies (subsonic frequencies) Helps to
prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure below the tuning
frequency.

Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's?

What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick
anywhere? Is that possible?

What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz?


Matt Bhame wrote
Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10".

Basically, because you aren't interested in a great deal of volume
(SPL), a 10" is probably overkill. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get one,
just might not be necessary to achieve the desired results.

I thought sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'?

No. Sealed doesn't fall off as quickly in the low freqency range
(below 30Hz) and ported has a little extra kick near the tuning
frequency and then falls off rapidly. Feel free to ask more questions
if "fall off" doesn't mean anything to you.

What is a subsonic filter?

It can be part of an active crossover (which some amps have built in)
which cuts out the extremely low frequencies (subsonic frequencies)
Helps to prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure
below the tuning frequency.

"Matt Bhame" wrote in message
...
Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's?


sometimes



What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick
anywhere? Is that possible?

yes, turn down the amplifier gain.



What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz?

sure.




Matt Bhame wrote
Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10".

Basically, because you aren't interested in a great deal of volume
(SPL), a 10" is probably overkill. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get one,
just might not be necessary to achieve the desired results.

I thought sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'?

No. Sealed doesn't fall off as quickly in the low freqency range
(below 30Hz) and ported has a little extra kick near the tuning
frequency and then falls off rapidly. Feel free to ask more questions
if "fall off" doesn't mean anything to you.

What is a subsonic filter?

It can be part of an active crossover (which some amps have built in)
which cuts out the extremely low frequencies (subsonic frequencies)
Helps to prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure
below the tuning frequency.

you've been listening to improperly installed subs then....plus, to me, it
sounds like you want to use a "sub" woofer as just that. a "sub" woofer....
not a midbass boomer...

I think an Image Dynamic IDQ v2 is what you need and I'll leave it at that.


FHLH.....


"Matt Bhame" wrote in message
...
Hello all.

Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the
vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just
as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching,
shrill-
as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more.

SNIPPED

Depends on your definition of BOOM!! IMHO boom is easily 30HZ and above,
more like the 50-80hz region.... just put that rap crap on a RTA and it'll
tell ya that... a 8 will work, and I believe for the love of space, good
power handling and frequency response he should use a sealed enclosure. Amp
(or xover) should have a sub sonic filter to keep the 8 from trying to play
what it can't, too.

FHLH... this is the way I see it. I'd use an ID sub too



"Daniel Snooks" wrote in message news:yUjdc.11023

Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz (where
the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't move
enough
air. I disagree with the slag about ported boxes though. A ported
enclosure
will give a flatter response curve until you get to the tuning frequency
and
then drop off VERY quickly after that, which actually would be a good
thing
in your situation, even less output down in the BOOMy area. Would help to
get an amp with a subsonic filter on it.
Any comments on this opinion?

Matt Bhame wrote
Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's?

It's not really a matter of efficiency, the 10" driver can move more air
with 3mm (for example) of excursion then the 8" can ... it's just a matter
of surface area.

What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick
anywhere? Is that possible?

Scott is correct, but I would think your best option is an equalizer to
tweak things.

What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz?

Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by the
human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I would
suggest anything lower then ~25Hz is pretty much non-existant to most
people, you just "feel" it.

you've been listening to improperly installed subs then....plus, to
me, it sounds like you want to use a "sub" woofer as just that. a
"sub" woofer.... not a midbass boomer...

I think an Image Dynamic IDQ v2 is what you need and I'll leave it at
that.


FHLH.....


It could very well be just that, no doubt.
Then again, in a younger age demographic that I'm in, the vast majority of
people aren't installing subs for anything short of attention of some sort
or another.

Anyhow, point was: if I can distinguish that the sub exists/if it doesn't
'blend' well, then it's worthless to me. I'd rather have a nice, well-
rounded 6x9 than a noticeable/overbearing sub. And the majority of subs
I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'.

Depends on your definition of BOOM!! IMHO boom is easily 30HZ and
above, more like the 50-80hz region.... just put that rap crap on a
RTA and it'll tell ya that... a 8 will work, and I believe for the
love of space, good power handling and frequency response he should
use a sealed enclosure. Amp (or xover) should have a sub sonic filter
to keep the 8 from trying to play what it can't, too.

FHLH... this is the way I see it. I'd use an ID sub too


BTW fellas...

What enclosure size for an 8"/Sealed or 8"/Bandpass?

Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by
the human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I
would suggest anything lower then ~25Hz is pretty much non-existant to
most people, you just "feel" it.

It would be lovely to 'feel' it when I am sort of 'concentrating' on it,
but also be so transparent it doesn't make itself known and scream "hey
everybody, I've got a sub!!!".

Matt Bhame wrote
BTW fellas...

What enclosure size for an 8"/Sealed or 8"/Bandpass?

typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to
answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft.

typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to
answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft.



Thanks.
What might be some of those factors?

"Matt Bhame" wrote in message
...

Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by
the human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I
would suggest anything lower then ~25Hz is pretty much non-existant to
most people, you just "feel" it.

It would be lovely to 'feel' it when I am sort of 'concentrating' on it,
but also be so transparent it doesn't make itself known and scream "hey
everybody, I've got a sub!!!".

a lot of that can be adjusted with the crossover frequency and gain control.
the last 4 systems i've had did not need any eq. because i adjusted the
crossovers and gains until the system blended together.

In article ,
Matt Bhame wrote:


And the majority of subs I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'.

Turn it down.

--
cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

Matt Bhame wrote
typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to
answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft.

Thanks.
What might be some of those factors?

There are three major items involved. I don't know the technical terms but
.... the speaker itself is mounted on the baffle. An airspace must be created
in front of the speaker, an airspace must be created behind the speaker. One
of those airspaces must be ported (typically the rear one)
So the factors are ...
1) the volume of the airspace in front of the speaker
2) the volume of the airspace behind the speaker
3) the volume of the port

Even small differences in any of the 3 items cause big changes in the output
of the enclosure. Bandpass boxes must be designed and built very carefully
or they will pretty much sound like a$$

Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's not
necessarily a bad thing :-)

"Daniel Snooks" wrote:

Matt Bhame wrote
typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to
answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft.

Thanks.
What might be some of those factors?

There are three major items involved. I don't know the technical terms but
... the speaker itself is mounted on the baffle. An airspace must be created
in front of the speaker, an airspace must be created behind the speaker. One
of those airspaces must be ported (typically the rear one)
So the factors are ...
1) the volume of the airspace in front of the speaker
2) the volume of the airspace behind the speaker
3) the volume of the port

Even small differences in any of the 3 items cause big changes in the output
of the enclosure. Bandpass boxes must be designed and built very carefully
or they will pretty much sound like a$$

Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's not
necessarily a bad thing :-)

Here's the rave-up on bandpass speaker enclosures. The primary 'benefits' are
generally described as a free low pass filter because the upper range is
attenuated by the enclosure and the ability to use drivers with sub-optimal
paramaters (usually @ lower cost) for a given application.

The disadvantages are increased design and construction complexity, the
tendency for faster speaker damage because the 2nd enclosure while helping to
sharpen the low pass filter also tends to attenuate the artifacts of
loudspeaker overload to the listener and, finally a larger overall enclosure
size for a given frequency response/SPL.

I like to think of a bandpass as a ported enclosure placed on the face of an
ordinary sealed or ported system. That is an oversimplification, of course, but
it is easier for me to think of such a system in terms of basic operational
characteristics and get past the mystery.

It depends entirely on the enclosure. A good woofer in a junk enclosure
won't sound good. Etc. P.


"Matt Bhame" wrote in message
...
Hello all.

Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the
vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just
as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching,
shrill-
as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more.

I don't say that to put anything or anyone down, I say that to attempt to
express what I do NOT want.

What I do want is something that takes care of business in a very
pleasant,
very *accurate* and almost transparent nature.

My desire is not to wake the neighbors, or set off car alarms or enter
competitions. I want something that'd fill what my Kappa 6x9s don't do.
I
don't want the slightest trace of boom.

My understanding is a slightly smaller-than-recommended sealed box will
help and that *anything* ported will be detrimental in the end.

Tell me if I'm dreaming or if I'm wrong, etc.

What are your thoughts?

Matt

In article ,
Matt Bhame wrote:


And the majority of subs I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'.

Turn it down.


Yes, volume has a lot to do with a sub's transparency, but I don't think
your suggestion finishes the issue at hand.

"Daniel Snooks" wrote:

Matt Bhame wrote
typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not
simple to answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25
cuft.

Thanks.
What might be some of those factors?

There are three major items involved. I don't know the technical terms
but ... the speaker itself is mounted on the baffle. An airspace must
be created in front of the speaker, an airspace must be created behind
the speaker. One of those airspaces must be ported (typically the rear
one) So the factors are ...
1) the volume of the airspace in front of the speaker
2) the volume of the airspace behind the speaker
3) the volume of the port

Even small differences in any of the 3 items cause big changes in the
output of the enclosure. Bandpass boxes must be designed and built
very carefully or they will pretty much sound like a$$

Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's
not necessarily a bad thing :-)

Here's the rave-up on bandpass speaker enclosures. The primary
'benefits' are generally described as a free low pass filter because
the upper range is attenuated by the enclosure and the ability to use
drivers with sub-optimal paramaters (usually @ lower cost) for a given
application.

The disadvantages are increased design and construction complexity,
the tendency for faster speaker damage because the 2nd enclosure while
helping to sharpen the low pass filter also tends to attenuate the
artifacts of loudspeaker overload to the listener and, finally a
larger overall enclosure size for a given frequency response/SPL.

I like to think of a bandpass as a ported enclosure placed on the face
of an ordinary sealed or ported system. That is an oversimplification,
of course, but it is easier for me to think of such a system in terms
of basic operational characteristics and get past the mystery.

Thx for the replies fellas...

I may have gotten 'ahead of myself' here...

I forgot that ported and bandpass are different, so let me re-ask:

Ported...
Bandpass...
Sealed...

pros/cons please?

Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring
to me by the sounds of it.

And unfortunately until now, my mind's been melding ported and bandpass
as 'the same thing'.

If you already think Sealed's out of the way, then just focus on ported
vs. bandpass.

I get the gist of bandpass' increased box complexity...and that raises
another question I have...

Sub box: DIY or buy them? pros/cons?

I *really* appreciate all of your input!!!

Matt

"Matt Bhame" wrote in message
...
"Daniel Snooks" wrote:

Matt Bhame wrote
typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not
simple to answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25
cuft.

Thanks.
What might be some of those factors?

There are three major items involved. I don't know the technical terms
but ... the speaker itself is mounted on the baffle. An airspace must
be created in front of the speaker, an airspace must be created behind
the speaker. One of those airspaces must be ported (typically the rear
one) So the factors are ...
1) the volume of the airspace in front of the speaker
2) the volume of the airspace behind the speaker
3) the volume of the port

Even small differences in any of the 3 items cause big changes in the
output of the enclosure. Bandpass boxes must be designed and built
very carefully or they will pretty much sound like a$$

Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's
not necessarily a bad thing :-)

Here's the rave-up on bandpass speaker enclosures. The primary
'benefits' are generally described as a free low pass filter because
the upper range is attenuated by the enclosure and the ability to use
drivers with sub-optimal paramaters (usually @ lower cost) for a given
application.

The disadvantages are increased design and construction complexity,
the tendency for faster speaker damage because the 2nd enclosure while
helping to sharpen the low pass filter also tends to attenuate the
artifacts of loudspeaker overload to the listener and, finally a
larger overall enclosure size for a given frequency response/SPL.

I like to think of a bandpass as a ported enclosure placed on the face
of an ordinary sealed or ported system. That is an oversimplification,
of course, but it is easier for me to think of such a system in terms
of basic operational characteristics and get past the mystery.

Thx for the replies fellas...

I may have gotten 'ahead of myself' here...

I forgot that ported and bandpass are different, so let me re-ask:

Ported...
Bandpass...
Sealed...

pros/cons please?

Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring
to me by the sounds of it.

it has a smoother roll off. it doesn't drop as fast as a ported box. a good
way to visualize this is to download WINISD (free) and try modeling a
speaker in different enclosures. I like sealed boxes myself due to the fact
that normally they can be smaller, play lower, easier to build, and handle
more power.




And unfortunately until now, my mind's been melding ported and bandpass
as 'the same thing'.

If you already think Sealed's out of the way, then just focus on ported
vs. bandpass.

I get the gist of bandpass' increased box complexity...and that raises
another question I have...

Sub box: DIY or buy them? pros/cons?

I *really* appreciate all of your input!!!

Matt

"Scott Johnson" wrote:

....snip.....

Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring
to me by the sounds of it.

it has a smoother roll off. it doesn't drop as fast as a ported box. a good
way to visualize this is to download WINISD (free) and try modeling a
speaker in different enclosures. I like sealed boxes myself due to the fact
that normally they can be smaller, play lower, easier to build, and handle
more power.

The exact figures for the below system resonance fall off under anechoic
conditions are 12-dB per octave for sealed systems and 24-dB per octave for
ported.

In a car at very low frequencies this means the cabin gain will often match the
sealed fall-off closely enabling response flat to 10 Hz unless limited by
driver displacement or amplifier power.

Ported systems are often tuned to around 30-40 Hz and with smaller enclosures a
6-10 dB response peak near the tuning frequency with sharply falling (24-dB per
octave) below that. Another disadvantage of ported enclosures is that the
hole-in-the-box means that the driver lacks the restoring force of the air
trapped in the cabinet and signals below the system resonant frequency may
cause distortion or even damage.