OK. I've posted once before and want to thank everyone for their help.
I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and a Mac
laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete unaccompanied Bach
Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices (also unaccompanied).


I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic? Yes,
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.

Go right now into a decent room, set up the mikes, and record yourself.
Play it back and get a listen.

The preamps in the Mbox aren't wonderful, and the converters aren't
wonderful either, but maybe they'll be better than your monitoring.
You won't know until you put it up on the monitors and listen.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic? Yes,
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.

Do some listening. A perfect preamp doesn't affect the sound of the
mike at all.... but in the real world, all electronics add some kind of
coloration. Might be coloration you like, it might not be. Roll some
tape and see! Either way, you will find you get a lot more sonic
difference from moving the mikes six inches than you'll get from changing
preamps...
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article .com writes:

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that?

You can use a different preamp. But first, be sure that the mic/preamp
interface is really your problem. It's an important thing for sure,
but you won't get the sound of a $2500 mic out of a $200 mic just by
changing preamps.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?

Technically, by changing the loading on the microphone. This makes
more of a difference with mics that have transformers at their output,
and less of a difference with transformerless mics. Then there's the
sound of the preamp electronics itself - some add distortion
(intentional or not - when intentional, it's called "color") and some
have very low internal distortion.

Then there's the matter of the analog-to-digital converter which is an
integral part of the M-box. This doesn't directly affect the sound of
the microphone, but it's part of the sound of the M-Box.

Ideally, you'd find the perfect mic for your instrument, run it
thorugh the preamp that sounds best with that mic and your instrument,
and use a really high grade A/D converter, connecting that to the
digital input of the M-Box. But for starters, work on your mics, your
room, placement, and see what the M-Box can and can't do.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and a Mac
laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete unaccompanied Bach
Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices (also unaccompanied).


I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that?

Are you willing to use software other than ProTools?



Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have better preamps?

I have been told that the 002 preamps are somewhat better than those in the MBox. Your DPAs are good enough to justify an even better preamp if your ears, your monitoring, and your budget will support that.

How much recording are you doing? How good is the room you are recording in? You might be better served by renting a better room or buying/renting better monitors. How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go?

"EugeneFodorFan" wrote in message
oups.com...

I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
I know you know this , but don't forget to "BACK UP " each step of your
recording ,you have your hands full recording a lot of "notes" in the works
unaccompanied Bach Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices. . .
wow.

ed

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
Yes,
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.

Hi Eugene
I would go to a local pro-audio dealer and get 3-4 pre-amp/A-D
converters to
try out.
I recorded Yo Yo Ma for the Bach DVD series and used 3 B&K 4000 series.
One for close 4-6ft, and 2 in omni 12-15ft back. I used the apogee
series and
it worked out great. I found the sound to be very smooth especially in
the 12-15khz
range. I had to add a little at 100hz to fill out the bottom a little.
The room mics
changed positions acording to tempo.
kevin

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics.

For the moment disregard what you were told (I'm tellin' you! g) and
go ahead and make some recordings. You face a substantial learning curve
for this project. Further along when you have more experience with mic
placement, gain staging, postitioning your self within a given room,
you'll find out that the air conditioning/heating noise in the building
vastly overshadows any lack of quality in the Mbox preamps, and you
won't find out about that until you get the computer far enough away
from the mics to let the mics hear the air conditioning.

Worry about those preamps when it becomes obvious _to you_ that they are
one of the primary obstacles to better recording. And then decide how
much money you want to spend for better preamps, because there are
appropriate suggestions for budgets ranging from $500 to $4000. Even
before you go there you may find that different mics with different
patterns work better in the chosen recording space.

But stop worrying and start recording. You'll be back with many more
questions. This can be a lot of fun. Don't sweat the small stuff up
front; wait until it looms large.

--
ha

"EugeneFodorFan" wrote in message
oups.com

OK. I've posted once before and want to thank everyone for their
help. I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and
a Mac laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete
unaccompanied Bach Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices
(also unaccompanied).

Sounds like a wonderful project. You've got what you need to get cracking.
Where are the MP3s for us to listen to?

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics.

Yes, and my wife doesn't look like a young Bo Derek. Never did. I don't look
like Cary Grant, either. So this stopped me from having children with her?
LOL!

What can I do about that?

Stop agonizing over what may be, and enjoy what is!

Is there something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance,
or do I
need an upgrade?

I need you need to get started with what you have.

You know that if I engaged in online pop psychology, I'd start rambling on
about performance anxiety related to the hard, scary parts of the job which
has nothing to do with buying equipment.

BTW, those involve playing the freakin' piano and making the bloomin'
recordings.

Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.

No, you're in a state of confusion that would be rapidly alleviated if you
got out of this gear slut phase.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?

A mic preamp affects the sound of a mic by altering its frequency response,
phase response, noise, and nonlinear distortion. BTW, that's essentially the
same way that mics affect the sound of what you record with them.

Yes, I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.

Put the mics on the stands. Plug the cables together. Start recording and
listening to what you are recording. It will all come to you in about 20
years. ;-)

wrote in message
ups.com...
a little at 100hz to fill out the bottom a little
The room mics
changed positions acording to tempo.

You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande ? Is it becasue of Tempo or Dynamics , and would that change the
"sound" in middle of a suite, or is it no one could notice .

I've been learning about recording (on my own) and while recording in our
church and I made sure that I did'nt change the mic placing for the whole
suite.



TIA
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good

What can I do about that?

Is there something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance

do I need an upgrade?

Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX?

Does it have better preamps?

How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?

You've gotten good and appropriate replies, most of which
deal with the issue of you not getting involved in the
technical aspects. And are exactly the reasons I advised you
to concentrate on the playing of the music and let somebody
else deal with the tech. Certainly there has to be someone
in the great city of Omaha that will help you with this -
and maybe for free, or at most, for a couple of dinners at a
nice steakhouse. Damn, if I lived in Omaha, I'd do it for
you just to get you to quit obsessing over this technical
minutiae and get on with the music G.


TM

Edward Bridge wrote:

You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande ? Is it becasue of Tempo or Dynamics , and would that change the
"sound" in middle of a suite, or is it no one could notice .

I'll run out on a limb here and suggest me's adjusting the mic positions
to put the major room reflections into some chosen time alignment with
the tempo of the material, much like people tweak digital reverbs for
the same reason.

I've been learning about recording (on my own) and while recording in our
church and I made sure that I did'nt change the mic placing for the whole
suite.

All this could easily depend on the room's reverberation
characteristics.

--
ha

All right already. You're right. It's time to make the music. Time
to get to work. I'll post when I have some music to attach. Then you
can post "technical comments" if you wish. Thanks to everyone.

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do
I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?

yes the pro tools le system is not the highest quality available, m box
or 002
and do not match your mic preference.
some will tell you that the pre's and convertors are weak throughout
the whole product line.
they were the given in your system, no. is this something you already
have?

get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...

what bow are you using, what fiddle, what strings??????
you don't have a strat......

oh fiddlesticks,

let us discuss this more....

have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project?
you can spend forever trying to better enginer this but your initial
statement was you were the performer and maybe after you got some more
of this under your belt you would/could seek additional expertise.

the first step is the hardest, use your chops.

dale

On 19 Feb 2005 09:56:28 -0800, "EugeneFodorFan"
wrote:

All right already. You're right. It's time to make the music. Time
to get to work. I'll post when I have some music to attach. Then you
can post "technical comments" if you wish. Thanks to everyone.

Just one 'technical comment' about posting 'music to attach'. You
may already know this, but I'm saying this in case you don't.
DO NOT post binary attachments to rec.audio.pro or any other text
(does not have 'binaries' in the name) newsgroup. Put the files on a
website and post a pointer to the website (as in the "Drum Outtakes"
thread).
If you want/need help making mp3's from .wav files and putting them
on a website, feel free to ask.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

"what bow are you using, what fiddle, what strings??????
you don't have a strat......"

I got rid of my hot shot Italian fiddle for a modern, better sounding
del Gesu copy made by Joseph Tripodi in NY. A fabulous maker. My bow
is a fine Bultitude which I'm quite happy with. My strings a
E--Hill thick, A--dominant, D--Vision Titanium, G--Vision Titanium.

have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project?

I think so.

I ask the rehtorical question and the man shows what he knows

I got rid of my hot shot Italian fiddle for a modern, better sounding
del Gesu copy made by Joseph Tripodi in NY. A fabulous maker. My bow
is a fine Bultitude which I'm quite happy with. My strings a
E--Hill thick, A--dominant, D--Vision Titanium, G--Vision Titanium.

2 minute call to show
time to play

you know what you need to do....?

have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project

?

I think so.

post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise
in this matter!

dale

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
I'll run out on a limb here and suggest me's adjusting the mic positions
to put the major room reflections into some chosen time alignment with
the tempo of the material, much like people tweak digital reverbs for
the same reason.


Hey Hank

Um ,sounds like a skill for those with "good ears" I still learning.
Thank you
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

is this something you already
have?

Yes.

get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...

I have no idea what you're talking about, where to get these, etc.

he first step is the hardest, use your chops.

Agreed.

I ask the rehtorical question and the man shows what he knows

Oops.

2 minute call to show
time to play


you know what you need to do....?

Play in tune, with good rhythm and a good sound?
As far as recording, not really...

post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise

in this matter!

Thanks. I will take all the help I can get.

EugeneFodorFan wrote:

get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...

I'll suggest this is no time to start learning a new DAW application.

I have no idea what you're talking about, where to get these, etc.

Digital Performer and Logic Pro and DSP Quattro are DAW apps.

The ULN2 is a firewire audio interface with good conversion and good
preamps. It'd kill the MBox in those regards, but again, do you want to
spend more money before you've even started recording?

Info at: http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/

Now, while I have an MIO2882+DSP from Metric Halo, and I use Logic Pro
6.4.1, if you were to come to me seeking advice on a system for your
project I would probably not suggest a computer-based rig, but something
dedicated to the purpose of recording that could later be interfaced
with a computer for editing and such, something like the Sound Devices
722 which has just been released.

http://www.sounddevices.com/

Still, as I have suggested, you have enough gear to gt started and to
start learning.

--
ha

No, you're in a state of confusion that would be rapidly alleviated if
you
got out of this gear slut phase.

Oh, man. I about fell out of my seat when I read that! That was
hilarious.

Put the mics on the stands. Plug the cables together. Start recording
and
listening to what you are recording. It will all come to you in about
20
years. ;-)

Finally, a task I can handle.

Hi Ed
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.
A position would be 8-10 ft to get the articulation of the piece.
B positon would be 15-20 ft to add in ambience of 1-1.5 sec
C position would be 25-30ft for ambience of 2-3 sec

In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance

With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.

You recorded Glenn Gould? Oh my God, that is incredible. Tell me
stories, lots of stories. Gould is, well, incredible to say the least.

I was told that ...
You know nothing about recording and seek advice.
you have your basic system already and it is a pro tools set up(?)
you want to get two very good microphones and wonder about the quality
of the pro tools system.
at this juncture, you need to set up your equipment and play!
go home and listen to the recordings
while you might want to focus on the "music" qualities as a performer
you are asking engineering questions here and
what you need to do is listen to your recordings as an engineer to
answer your questions.

Yes, I'm a complete beginner.

no, given your description of your fiddle, you are a practiced
musician.

Play in tune, with good rhythm and a good sound!!!!

It is time you went and layed some tracks

post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise


dale


ps ignore the man behind the curtain
)
he is just a name dropper

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Ed
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.
A position would be 8-10 ft to get the articulation of the piece.
B positon would be 15-20 ft to add in ambience of 1-1.5 sec
C position would be 25-30ft for ambience of 2-3 sec

In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance

wrote in message
oups.com...

With Gould recordings

???? sorry . . . okay. . kiddo. .killfile.

wrote in message
oups.com...

In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance

What is harmonic duration?

Peace,
Paul

Harmonic Duration
Is the duration time of the musical elements that are played.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Harmonic Duration
Is the duration time of the musical elements that are played.

Like, how long a note lasts?

Peace,
Paul

Don't you get some nasty interference this way? Adding signals from the

same source with different delays has serious disadvantages.

No you don't get discrete delays or any phase problems.
The idea of the A position is to capture the intensity of the
dynamics and the articulation of the notes that are being played.
The B & C positions add in the resonance/ reverb characteristics
to the overall sound. The C position will add in a longer resonance
than position D. This gives you greater control in making sure that
a harmonic mess does not occur.
kevin
--

Yes, the actual sustain and RT-60
kevin

"EugeneFodorFan"

sir

is arguing an aesthetical production
technique.
it bears no consequence to your own project of recording your self in
the art gallery.

have you picked up your microphones.
what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?

dale

Dear Kevin

Is this you http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/newsletter/2004/16/10.asp ?

If so, I'm _sorry _ for thinking you were pulling my leg about Gould and
YO YO .

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.

have you picked up your microphones

Yes, I have. I just received my 4052's a couple of days ago.They
sound terrific! I also have one 4011 that I've had for about a year.
That's all I started with was 1 4011 just to get used to Protools and
to practice recording and playing. Now I'm ready to begin my 20 year
project.

what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?

I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations from
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet. But like you said,
I just need to record, which I've done, but I'm not wonderfully
enthused by the sound as of yet, though the mics sound pretty decent.
It just either sounds too close or too far. Funny, even the maturity
of sound seems to change when I change the position of the mics.

is arguing an aesthetical production
technique.

I just want to hear one story from Kevin about Glenn Gould. I'm a huge
Gould fanatic.

Yes that is me.
As Dale stated above, the technique I use is very unconventional, yet
it works well for me.
I would agree to just get out there and experiment.
If you want to hear an example of mine, try to locate Gould's
conducting debut
of Wagner's "Siefried Idyll"
Kevin

Excuse me Dale!
That would be a "name dropper" who is fortunate to work with some great
talent.
Kevin

I would really love to hear any story about Glenn. Like I said, I'm a
huge fan. In fact, my friend from Los Angeles is such a fan, she went
up to Canada and spent some time in his home town, etc. Anyway, just
thought I'd ask.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes that is me.
As Dale stated above, the technique I use is very unconventional, yet
it works well for me.
I would agree to just get out there and experiment.
If you want to hear an example of mine, try to locate Gould's
conducting debut
of Wagner's "Siefried Idyll"

Dear Kevin

Thank you and again I'm very sorry being a ass and thinking you were very
smart about recording but pulling my leg about working with Yo YO and
G.Gould which is two HUGE names as you know.
I'm a just grade 1 student of recording at 44 years old , I don't know
what's conventional and what's not so I'm all ears.

I'll take a look for Gould conducting Wagner 's "Siefreid Idyll" at the
libuary, thank you.

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

EugeneFodorFan wrote:
Now I'm ready to begin my 20 year project.

what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?

I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations
from
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet. But like you
said,
I just need to record, which I've done, but I'm not wonderfully
enthused by the sound as of yet, though the mics sound pretty decent.
It just either sounds too close or too far. Funny, even the maturity
of sound seems to change when I change the position of the mics.

so how are you positioning the mics?
ORTF.....NOS....
I find the jecklin disc is a good technique

here is a link for a pdf on building your own disc.
http://www.klankschap.nl/ndotb.pdf

when you say the maturity seems to change, where do you like the sound
better ... close....further away?
any audio files available yet for feedback?

dale

kevin

I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations
from
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet.

I just want to hear one story from Kevin about Glenn Gould. I'm a
huge
Gould fanatic.

I'm very sorry being a ass and thinking you were very
smart about recording but pulling my leg about working with Yo YO and
G.Gould which is two HUGE names as you know.
I'm a just grade 1 student of recording at 44 years old , I don't
know
what's conventional and what's not so I'm all ears

hey, like they want their fan gossip, where is it???
they write here for basic advice
and get you name dropping and
giving tchniques which bear no resemblence to what they need to further
their recording choices!
just some more of the hollywood overproduced BS.

what mic position should he use when all he has is a pair of mics and
the m box???
cut the crap and give the man some real usable advice, what gould and
yo yo drink is not what he drinks!

dale

get real