I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would love to sit in on a mixing
session with a top industry recording pro to try and learn how these
guys get that lovely, deep, full, warm, tight, well rounded and even
slighty spacious bass sound on so many contemporary albums these days,
particularly dance music. It just sits in the mix perfectly with such
richness and doesn't overpower even modest PC speakers.

I have tried in vain to recreate it at home and I know and accept that
I do not have the same kit nor the experience and skills of these
masters, but surely I should be able to come close if I apply the same
techniques and principles with the kit that I do have: PC, Cubase SX3,
Waves Plugins, KRK RP5 monitors.

In listening and analysing the bass end of current pro releases, it
would seem to me that obviously compression is being used, that's an
obvious given. Then something is being done to give the bass a bit of
width, I can only think it might be a hint of chorus or a stereo delay
of a few milliseconds... Then there is the frequency content, it
sounds really rich and full, sitting in the mix perfectly without
killing the speakers either. It may be down to very careful and
selective eq'ing to sculpt the perfect bass curve but perhaps also
psycho acoustic processing is the key here. I have tried the Wave Maxx
Bass plugin which I believe adds LF harmonic content but I was
disappointed with the results and preferred the sound without the
plugin. Perhaps I'm not using it correctly or effectively...

Anyway, if there are any pros who'd liked to share some insight into
the alchemy of getting a pro bass sound on a mix, then your expertise
would be most gratefully received.

Cheers!

Mike

screentan wrote:
I have tried in vain to recreate it at home and I know and accept
that
I do not have the same kit nor the experience and skills of these
masters, but surely I should be able to come close if I apply the
same
techniques and principles with the kit that I do have: PC, Cubase
SX3,
Waves Plugins, KRK RP5 monitors.

I use:
bass guitar (Jazz)
amp (MusicMan 100w)
speaker cabinet (2x 12" EVM)
microphone (various dynamic)
preamp

The amp/speaker/mic can be bypassed by plugging
straight into the preamp, however at this point
you will no longer be getting the sound of the
bass, just the signal.

In listening and analysing the bass end of current pro releases, it
would seem to me that obviously compression is being used, that's an
obvious given.

Be careful about compressing too much going to track.
No more than 2-3dB. You'll squeeze the life out of it.

Then something is being done to give the bass a bit of
width, I can only think it might be a hint of chorus or a stereo
delay
of a few milliseconds...

Rarely if ever ...

Then there is the frequency content, it
sounds really rich and full, sitting in the mix perfectly without
killing the speakers either. It may be down to very careful and
selective eq'ing to sculpt the perfect bass curve but perhaps also
psycho acoustic processing is the key here.

Try this: come off the dry track and split into
frequencies above and below about 100Hz or so.
Low end: compress as much as you like and center/mono.
mid/high end: leave the dynamics in and hard or far pan.
Add effects and EQ here to taste.

I have tried the Wave Maxx
Bass plugin which I believe adds LF harmonic content but I was
disappointed with the results and preferred the sound without the
plugin. Perhaps I'm not using it correctly or effectively...

Unless there's some new Magic I'm unaware of it's
difficult to create good sound from bad.

Anyway, if there are any pros who'd liked to share some insight into
the alchemy of getting a pro bass sound on a mix, then your expertise
would be most gratefully received.

Tube amps are appropriate but not required. It's hard
to beat an SVT stack. Those little 10's work well
because of the cabinet. Play Loud !

Cheers!

Mike

good luck
rd

I have tried in vain to recreate it at home and I know and accept that
I do not have the same kit nor the experience and skills of these
masters, but surely I should be able to come close if I apply the same
techniques and principles with the kit that I do have: PC, Cubase SX3,
Waves Plugins, KRK RP5 monitors.

Well, you are probably trying to do too much. I remember years ago when
i was first mixing and i had the same problem. Using the MaxxBass,
Compressors, EQ's everything. I am a bass player myself and after
aquiring some better gear for playing shows with, i found that my
recorded sounded improved by leaps and bounds. Simply by taking a
Balanced out from my Ampeg SVT into the balanced input of my MOTU 896 i
found amazing sound that i didn't even have to touch.

This is another one of those topics where it comes down to having a
confident and consistent player, a well built bass guitar whose tone is
predictably controlled throughout the range of the instrument, a well
built amp and a good means of getting that signal into the recorded
domain. If you have those things, you job as an engineer just got a lot
easier. Unfortunately, in terms of gear the rig i just described would
cost in the area of 6000 dollars (not including the recording hardware).
I'm a firm believer (and so is anyone else on this newsgroup), that
the source is absolutely vital to the sound of the final product.

The other end contributing to the tight bass is the kick drum. Same
thing applies here. A good player, a good drum, a good mic and a good pre.

On the technical side of things i would suggest a bunch of things:
1. The bass drum and the bass guitar (or other bass instruments) need to
work together in the mix. If both instruments are very big sounding in
the 100Hz (for example) range, then the outcome is going to be muddy
because you've got both sounds competing for the same frequency
real-estate.
2. To help with the first point, make sure that most of your EQ moves
are subtractive as opposed to boosting the lows. I've found that a key
to clarity in the low end is carving away the fat you don't need. And
then, if need be, subtely add frequencies for definition. Some famous
engineers have said that if you want to mix elements then subtract EQ,
if you want to bring out, or emphasize and element, THEN add EQ.
3. Some compressors, like the Waves C-1, allow for a sidechain input.
This basically uses the signal from the bass drum energy to tell the
bass guitar's compressor to squeeze. The result is that when the bass
drum strikes, the bass guitar instantly drops in level and jumps back up
very quickly (if you're doing it correctly you shouldn't actually HEAR
this change, you will only notice an added clarity to the bass drums
attack).

Anyway, if there are any pros who'd liked to share some insight into
the alchemy of getting a pro bass sound on a mix, then your expertise
would be most gratefully received.

Just keep in mind to really work hard on getting the sound of the
instrument sounding as good as it can. Don't rely on the mix stage to
fix and clear up problems that originated on the recording floor. In an
ideal situation plug-ins and effects of any kind should be used for
creative purposes, not as remedies for avoidable problems at the sound
source. Hope this helps!

Cheers!

Mike

Take care,

Mike Rocha

"screentan" wrote in message
om...
I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would love to sit in on a mixing
session with a top industry recording pro to try and learn how these
guys get that lovely, deep, full, warm, tight, well rounded and even
slighty spacious bass sound on so many contemporary albums these days,
particularly dance music. It just sits in the mix perfectly with such
richness and doesn't overpower even modest PC speakers.


I do a significant amount of music production using samples on Kurzweil K
series samplers/synths. I find that the key to big, fat, ubiquitous bass
presence is to use a compressor with a soft-knee for the bass channel. I use
the KDFX effects processor built into the K2600RS to assign this compression
to on buss that the bass is routed through. I use different processing for
guitars and Hammond organ, and tend to leave the drums 'dry' except for
reverb on the AUX bus. The arrangement works well, giving the bass a smooth
consistency and evening out performance variations just enough to remove the
distraction.

Try putting a compressor in the bass track, and maybe some EQ with a broad
hump around 50hz.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-

The tight, punchy, low bass you're hearing in most pop music today is
not only samples...more than likely, but just about always doubled with
a Moog or virtual Moog. Yes, compression is a part of it, but what
you're hearing is probably 20% real bass being playing through an
amp...if even that high, maybe another 30-40% direct signal through an
expensive direct box and then something like an 1176, then the rest is
Moog.
later,
m

While we're on the subject of recording bass, I (a rank amateur)
recently had the task of mixing down a bunch of digital tracks that were
recorded during a live performance of my band. The bass track used the
direct-out from the bassist's amp and was recorded without EQ.

When attempting to mix these down, I found that the bass track had an
incredible amount of annoying string squeaks and fret buzzes in it. I
had to apply pretty heavy EQ (bass boost, mid and treble cut) to make
that junk less audible in the mix. Our bass player points out that you
never hear all of that in the live sound from the bass amp, because the
amp/speaker don't reproduce higher frequencies very well. That may be
true, but I'm wondering how much of what I'm hearing is just intrinsic
to DI recording of bass, and how much is a function of the bass guitar
itself and/or the player.

- Grant

Grant wrote:

While we're on the subject of recording bass, I (a rank amateur)
recently had the task of mixing down a bunch of digital tracks that were
recorded during a live performance of my band. The bass track used the
direct-out from the bassist's amp and was recorded without EQ.

When attempting to mix these down, I found that the bass track had an
incredible amount of annoying string squeaks and fret buzzes in it. I
had to apply pretty heavy EQ (bass boost, mid and treble cut) to make
that junk less audible in the mix. Our bass player points out that you
never hear all of that in the live sound from the bass amp, because the
amp/speaker don't reproduce higher frequencies very well. That may be
true, but I'm wondering how much of what I'm hearing is just intrinsic
to DI recording of bass, and how much is a function of the bass guitar
itself and/or the player.

DI's are all over the place in relation to the amped sound, but still, a
well adjusted instrument in the hands of a skilled player makes a world
of difference in the fretboard racket. That noise _does_ affect what
comes out of the amp, and I don't like to have to work with folks who
suggest it'll never be heard for whatever reason.

Years ago I called a good friend and fine drummer for some session work.
While dialing-in the drum sound I heard a little rattle in his kit, and
told him about it. He replied that we'd never hear it in the mix. I
never called him again for any session work. Get a few such noises going
and yes, their sum is right there screwing with the mix.

That said, the DI box used also has a large effect. Give me an Evil
Twin.

--
ha

screentan wrote:
I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would love to sit in on a
mixing
session with a top industry recording pro to try and learn how these
guys get that lovely, deep, full, warm, tight, well rounded and even
slighty spacious bass sound on so many contemporary albums these
days,
particularly dance music. It just sits in the mix perfectly with such
richness and doesn't overpower even modest PC speakers.

Before you get down on yourself, don't forget you're listening to a
mastered mix. Your bass tracks would probably sound a lot better after
they were mastered by Ted Jensen.

A great engineer can do wonders with crappy gear, but the best gear can
make a huge difference. I recorded a couple of bass players using
Fodera basses in the same week. They're not my ideal sound, but for a
fusion sound they are so easy to record. So first, start with the
instruement.

Second, transformers. Use a pre with a transformer and that will make a
big difference. Also distortion. I've like both the FATSO and the
Chandle EMI compressor in THD mode for adding a richeness to a DI'd
bass. I pretty much use a dual DI system now. One side is big and woofy
like and amp - SansAmp to tube pre. The other is a traditional DI. The
both go through the FATSO to tape and I compress the woofy side a bit.
Then I've got an simulated amp with DI, but no pahse issues.

From there you need to have good mix comrpession. you want to let the
transient though, and then squash the signa. So your attack time might
be a little slower than you think. Also, a fast acting comrpessto, like
a JFET on a slow setting will work well, so that you get a quick
squash, after you let the attack through. Then you need a quick release
to allow the compressor to open up for the next note.

EQ wise, you need lows, but not the low lows. High pass filter around
40hz or 50 if you've got a Neve. Play around with 100 hz cut or boost
and also 400hz (same). That's where you'll shape you body. The
definition and punch comes much higher. Sometimes 1k, sometimes 3k
sometimes 10k.

There aren't any rules, but try the EQ both before and after
compression. Or try cutting before compression and boosting after.
A few ideas to experiment with.....

screentan wrote:
I know it's unlikely to happen, but I would love to sit in on a
mixing
session with a top industry recording pro to try and learn how these
guys get that lovely, deep, full, warm, tight, well rounded and even
slighty spacious bass sound on so many contemporary albums these
days,
particularly dance music. It just sits in the mix perfectly with such
richness and doesn't overpower even modest PC speakers.

It starts by using the right bass (in the right hands), it's not
fixable in the mix. A lot of guys get a super deep sound with a Yamaha
Bass (like Will Lee I think.) A lot of that kind of sound is recorded
direct, so you need a good DI, minimally I'd say a Countryman and of
course a decent micpre.

As for the stereo spread thing, try using an aux send rather than
an insert effect. Aux out to a TC Electronics 1210 chorus, pan the
chorus returns but leave the original bass sound centered, and you'll
have something sparkly yet impactful, and typical I think.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News Channel / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

How exact is the doubling? I am assuming the moog sounds have a slower
attack to give you some fudge factor or else you are cutting and
pasting for hours.

I think Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys pioneered this by doubling his
bass with an organ (B3?). Interesting stuff. db

Grant wrote:

*snip-o-roony*

When attempting to mix these down, I found that the bass track had an
incredible amount of annoying string squeaks and fret buzzes in it. I
had to apply pretty heavy EQ (bass boost, mid and treble cut) to make
that junk less audible in the mix. Our bass player points out that you
never hear all of that in the live sound from the bass amp, because the
amp/speaker don't reproduce higher frequencies very well. That may be
true, but I'm wondering how much of what I'm hearing is just intrinsic
to DI recording of bass, and how much is a function of the bass guitar
itself and/or the player.

- Grant

I used to myself loath having to use DIs, but there are good DIs just
like there are good basses and good bass players. It comes down, again,
to the level of playing of the bassist, the maintenance of the gear, and
the quality of DI. There are some great DI's that are quite inexpensive
that come to mind like some of JDI's stuff.

And just a side note, not only is having good gear important, but
knowing the amp/cab/bass is important to. I play different when i'm
going through my SVT as opposed to my 25watt Fender practice amp. Both
sound just as good for their own specific applications.

Roach