Hi,

I am setting up a whole house audio system consisting of in ceiling speakers
linked to Phoenix Gold Transformerless volume controls which are connected
to an impedance adjusting Phoenix Gold SAM Panel. I am planning on using my
PC to feed line level audio signals to an amplifier that will power the SAM
Panel.

The only thing that I haven't purchased yet are the speakers to work with
the system. That's because there are so many brands out there in the full
price spectrum and I don't know which way to turn. I do have a four-year old
pair of MTX blueprint series 6.5" speakers still "new" in the box from my
last house, but I still need several other pair.

I need some advice on what brands you would recommend on the lower end of
the spectrum. By that I mean as far below $100/pair as you say that I can
safely go. Understand that these are not being used for home theater.
Rather they are just so that the music - pop, classical, Christian
contemporary can follow one throughout a rather large house. I don't have a
critical ear and so don't want to pay more for something that I or most
people wouldn't hear.

I was planning on going with the 6.5 inch side since that worked well for me
before. Could you please advise what are the minimal critical specs that
you recommend that I don't go below? I'm also confused on crossover
circuitry for in-ceiling speakers. Do most such speakers have them or not?
Is there a problem with mixing speaker sizes in the arrangement that I
describe?

Would you find any of the speakers linked below acceptable for what I've
described.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...4522 965&rd=1
(if I went 8")

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...4453 517&rd=1
(8" again)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...5230 939&rd=1

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...onics&n=507846

http://www.fcsurplus.ca/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=1859

http://store.yahoo.com/jlhwholesalers/dblatc-5m.html (dual voice coil)

http://www.x10.com/electronics/allca...TC-6.2DTM.html

http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?...&svbna me=403

If anyone can point to a particular website that has great deals (value
wise) on speakers, I would be very grateful if you could post a link.

Thanks.

David Jensen
Note: replace the "xx" in my email with mj for my real email address.
Thanks.

David Jensen wrote:

I am setting up a whole house audio system consisting of in ceiling speakers
linked to Phoenix Gold Transformerless volume controls which are connected
to an impedance adjusting Phoenix Gold SAM Panel. I am planning on using my
PC to feed line level audio signals to an amplifier that will power the SAM
Panel.

Why? This sounds like a really silly way of getting around using a 70V
system. The 70V distribution stuff is a lot simpler, probably more
reliable, and if you use good transformers it can sound good.

I need some advice on what brands you would recommend on the lower end of
the spectrum. By that I mean as far below $100/pair as you say that I can
safely go. Understand that these are not being used for home theater.
Rather they are just so that the music - pop, classical, Christian
contemporary can follow one throughout a rather large house. I don't have a
critical ear and so don't want to pay more for something that I or most
people wouldn't hear.

I don't know of anything down there. The Tannoy in-ceiling stuff is not
bad at all but it's around $100 per speaker. Even going with something
like the 8" full-range Atlas drivers that you see used in supermarket
paging systems, you'll be paying around $60/pair, and I wouldn't want that
stuff in my home.

It is possible that AMK might have something usable. They are a Korean
company that makes some coaxial-design in-ceiling speakers for the installed
sound market.

I was planning on going with the 6.5 inch side since that worked well for me
before. Could you please advise what are the minimal critical specs that
you recommend that I don't go below? I'm also confused on crossover
circuitry for in-ceiling speakers. Do most such speakers have them or not?
Is there a problem with mixing speaker sizes in the arrangement that I
describe?

Most in-ceiling speakers are crappy 8" full-range drivers with no crossover.
The Tannoy ICT stuff has no crossover because of the way the coaxial tweeter
assembly is designed, but it's really a 2-way. Some of the installed sound
stuff is 2-way but most of it uses really spitty dome tweeters that I cannot
stand.

Would you find any of the speakers linked below acceptable for what I've
described.

Where do you FIND this stuff?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Funny, I was tempted to ping you and Hank to see if either of you had
any experience with mulit-room home systems. I'm about to move into a
new place and I'm sad to say, but my wife has put her foot down on my
big Yamaha NS1000M boxes. The home is already wired for small
ceiling/wall bracket speakers in the main den, bedroom, outside and
possibly one other room.
I'm a two channel guy, not a HT type of person. I'm just looking for
something decent in the way of speakers, but can't seem to find much
info on this anywhere. Most of the sub/satellite stuff seems to be
junk. The only possible exceptions I can find are the Gallo Micros and
the Orb speaker systems. Neither of which I can listen to before I
purchase.
I'm going to power this with my old but familiar Mc 2205 amp/ C26 pre.
I'm going to run the signal out to a Niles selector box and then to the
rooms. I believe each room has a volume pot wired in for individual
control. Again, I haven't moved in yet, so I don't know too many
details....just trying to plan for the new system.
I hate to hijack this thread, but it sort of ties in.....
Any ideas or experiences with any decent sat/sub systems?
later,
m

Scott Dorsey wrote:
David Jensen wrote:

I am setting up a whole house audio system consisting of in ceiling speakers
linked to Phoenix Gold Transformerless volume controls which are connected
to an impedance adjusting Phoenix Gold SAM Panel. I am planning on using my
PC to feed line level audio signals to an amplifier that will power the SAM
Panel.


Why? This sounds like a really silly way of getting around using a 70V
system. The 70V distribution stuff is a lot simpler, probably more
reliable, and if you use good transformers it can sound good.

Add some 70V Mortronics attenuators and you're there.



I need some advice on what brands you would recommend on the lower end of
the spectrum. By that I mean as far below $100/pair as you say that I can
safely go. Understand that these are not being used for home theater.
Rather they are just so that the music - pop, classical, Christian
contemporary can follow one throughout a rather large house. I don't have a
critical ear and so don't want to pay more for something that I or most
people wouldn't hear.


I don't know of anything down there. The Tannoy in-ceiling stuff is not
bad at all but it's around $100 per speaker. Even going with something
like the 8" full-range Atlas drivers that you see used in supermarket
paging systems, you'll be paying around $60/pair, and I wouldn't want that
stuff in my home.

Quam has some coax drivers that sound okay if their backs are properly enclosed. Haven't bought anything like that in about ten years, but they can be had at a very attractive price if you can get contractor pricing from the right distributor.

wrote:
Funny, I was tempted to ping you and Hank to see if either of you had
any experience with mulit-room home systems.

I used to sell & install them for a living.






I'm a two channel guy, not a HT type of person. I'm just looking for
something decent in the way of speakers, but can't seem to find much
info on this anywhere.

LOTS of info out there, it's a bloodbath now with all the manufacturers in that space.

Check Sonance, Boston Acoustics, Polk, and just about any other manufacturer you can think. Go listen to them, and if the dealer doesn't have them setup in a wall to demo, go find another dealer.

thanks kurt...i'll give some of them a listen.
later,
m

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

Quam has some coax drivers that sound okay if their backs are properly enclosed. Haven't bought anything like that in about ten years, but they can be had at a very attractive price if you can get contractor pricing from the right distributor.

I was looking at the 12' Quam coaxial drivers as replacement for Altec 600Bs
in cinema speaker surrounds at one point, and they are a lot less beamy than
a 12" driver, but the high end response is really sharp and brittle because
of the piezo tweeter they are using. Didn't try the 8" one, though, which
may cross over a little bit higher.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I did a search for Mortronics in Google and found nothing helpful. Could
you be more specific or give me a link to a site that sells the products
that you are talking about? Thanks.

David Jensen

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:
David Jensen wrote:

I am setting up a whole house audio system consisting of in ceiling
speakers
linked to Phoenix Gold Transformerless volume controls which are
connected
to an impedance adjusting Phoenix Gold SAM Panel. I am planning on
using my
PC to feed line level audio signals to an amplifier that will power the
SAM
Panel.


Why? This sounds like a really silly way of getting around using a 70V
system. The 70V distribution stuff is a lot simpler, probably more
reliable, and if you use good transformers it can sound good.

Add some 70V Mortronics attenuators and you're there.



I need some advice on what brands you would recommend on the lower end
of
the spectrum. By that I mean as far below $100/pair as you say that I
can
safely go. Understand that these are not being used for home theater.
Rather they are just so that the music - pop, classical, Christian
contemporary can follow one throughout a rather large house. I don't
have a
critical ear and so don't want to pay more for something that I or most
people wouldn't hear.


I don't know of anything down there. The Tannoy in-ceiling stuff is not
bad at all but it's around $100 per speaker. Even going with something
like the 8" full-range Atlas drivers that you see used in supermarket
paging systems, you'll be paying around $60/pair, and I wouldn't want
that
stuff in my home.

Quam has some coax drivers that sound okay if their backs are properly
enclosed. Haven't bought anything like that in about ten years, but they
can be had at a very attractive price if you can get contractor pricing from
the right distributor.

Why? because I don't know any better! I thought I mainly needed to worry
about the speakers, but it appears that there is more to be concerned about.

When Googling for 70V distribution, I saw this quote at
http://www.ticcorp.com/70v_guide.htm

(These systems are typically used for paging and background music and other
multiple inputs, where high sound volume or even, sometimes, quality of
sound is not the main consideration.)


So I'm even more confused now. . .

Please post some links to the good "70V distribution stuff". I want to
learn more.

David Jensen

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Jensen wrote:

I am setting up a whole house audio system consisting of in ceiling
speakers
linked to Phoenix Gold Transformerless volume controls which are
connected
to an impedance adjusting Phoenix Gold SAM Panel. I am planning on using
my
PC to feed line level audio signals to an amplifier that will power the
SAM
Panel.

Why? This sounds like a really silly way of getting around using a 70V
system. The 70V distribution stuff is a lot simpler, probably more
reliable, and if you use good transformers it can sound good.

I need some advice on what brands you would recommend on the lower end of
the spectrum. By that I mean as far below $100/pair as you say that I
can
safely go. Understand that these are not being used for home theater.
Rather they are just so that the music - pop, classical, Christian
contemporary can follow one throughout a rather large house. I don't
have a
critical ear and so don't want to pay more for something that I or most
people wouldn't hear.

I don't know of anything down there. The Tannoy in-ceiling stuff is not
bad at all but it's around $100 per speaker. Even going with something
like the 8" full-range Atlas drivers that you see used in supermarket
paging systems, you'll be paying around $60/pair, and I wouldn't want that
stuff in my home.

It is possible that AMK might have something usable. They are a Korean
company that makes some coaxial-design in-ceiling speakers for the
installed
sound market.

I was planning on going with the 6.5 inch side since that worked well for
me
before. Could you please advise what are the minimal critical specs that
you recommend that I don't go below? I'm also confused on crossover
circuitry for in-ceiling speakers. Do most such speakers have them or
not?
Is there a problem with mixing speaker sizes in the arrangement that I
describe?

Most in-ceiling speakers are crappy 8" full-range drivers with no
crossover.
The Tannoy ICT stuff has no crossover because of the way the coaxial
tweeter
assembly is designed, but it's really a 2-way. Some of the installed
sound
stuff is 2-way but most of it uses really spitty dome tweeters that I
cannot
stand.

Would you find any of the speakers linked below acceptable for what I've
described.

Where do you FIND this stuff?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

David Jensen wrote:
I did a search for Mortronics in Google and found nothing helpful. Could
you be more specific or give me a link to a site that sells the products
that you are talking about? Thanks.

Mortronics made (and pretty much originated IIRC) stepped autoformer wall mount volume controls. Instead of a resistive pad (crunching noises, heat, etc.) they used a rotary switch with tapped autoformer(s) behind it. Sonance, Niles, and others now sell nicer packaged variants of the design but Mortronics used to be the only source for 25V and 70V flavors.

I still have a bunch in the garage, not sure how many are 70V models.

I have the following speakers from Parts Express and I couldn't be
happier with them.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=300-402&DID=7

Don't let anyone tell you that you need expensive in-ceiling speakers.
They are by their very nature not for critical listening, so there is
no need to get anything fancy. The speakers I mentioned above sound
great at either high or low volumes, and I have gotten numerous
compliments on them from guests in my home.

On 20 Jan 2005 14:44:13 -0800, "Chuck" wrote:

I have the following speakers from Parts Express and I couldn't be
happier with them.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=300-402&DID=7

Don't let anyone tell you that you need expensive in-ceiling speakers.
They are by their very nature not for critical listening, so there is
no need to get anything fancy. The speakers I mentioned above sound
great at either high or low volumes, and I have gotten numerous
compliments on them from guests in my home.

Well, that just about says it all, doesn't it?

Don't let anyone tell you that you need expensive in-ceiling speakers.
They are by their very nature not for critical listening, so there is
no need to get anything fancy. The speakers I mentioned above sound
great at either high or low volumes, and I have gotten numerous
compliments on them from guests in my home.

I'll agree. Just 'having' sound in an area is an improvement. That it's
not 'audiophile' quality is a lot less of an issue when we're talking about
hearing the morning news while in the shower. I'd want 'better' speakers in
places that might have most focused listening; the living room with a
fireplace might be a place you'd want to be able to hear really good quality
sound. But plenty of places don't 'need' it.

Likewise consider the wattage involved. Driving more than 25W into a
bathroom or other small area might be a complete waste. Or pushing only 35W
into a really big space might be woefully underpowered. It's good to make
sure you that if you need to mix-and-match things that you have the right
equipment AND the right wiring in place to accomodate it.

As in, when pulling wire don't overlook the possibility that installing
centralized speaker wire NOW (into larger spaces) might be alot cheaper than
trying to add it on later. Wire is usually a lot cheaper than the labor and
hassles of pulling it again later (and breaking the stuff pulled before...)

-Bill Kearney

Chuck (and anyone else willing to respond),

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I am encouraged. From the same
website that you listed, I see that Dayton also has the rectangular two way
in-wall speakers for $50/pair at
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-036.
Would it be fair to say that these should be even better than the round ones
since they have crossover circuitry in them?

Also, for speakers that end up in the attic, can things be improved by
building an enclosure behind them? If so, is one material better than
another?

Thanks again.

David Jensen

"Chuck" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have the following speakers from Parts Express and I couldn't be
happier with them.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=300-402&DID=7

Don't let anyone tell you that you need expensive in-ceiling speakers.
They are by their very nature not for critical listening, so there is
no need to get anything fancy. The speakers I mentioned above sound
great at either high or low volumes, and I have gotten numerous
compliments on them from guests in my home.

Don't let anyone tell you that you need expensive in-ceiling speakers.
Well, that just about says it all, doesn't it?
Except for the moral of the story, which is "Cheaper is better!"

Well, if you're talking about background music or news radio in the bathroom
or kitchen then it's really a waste of money to bother putting a pair of
Polk, Niles or name-your-audiophile-brand speakers in there. The quality
they might offer is just wasted for spaces like that.

On 1/22/05 14:10, in article ,
"wkearney99" wrote:

Well, if you're talking about background music or news radio in the bathroom
or kitchen then it's really a waste of money to bother putting a pair of
Polk, Niles or name-your-audiophile-brand speakers in there. The quality
they might offer is just wasted for spaces like that.


I would say this statement is absolute rubbish. Quality is always noticed
and appreciated by all, even those not "audiophiles". I have owned several
service-type businesses over the years, and always replaced existing
background music systems with high quality Bose systems when I took them
over. And the results were always noticed and commented on by the
customers, who in many cases spent time waiting for their services to be
performed.

Scratchy and tinny sound is NEVER appreciated, and psychologically is just
annoying and tension creating.

The continued growth in ultra-high-quality clock radios is proof of point;
even in what isn't necessary, the Bose and other expensive solutions
continue to rule the market despite the high cost relative to other brands.

While what you say regarding quality is true, you can get quality
without buying audiophile-brand speakers. I think that was Bill
Kearney's point, not that bargain-basement "scratchy and tinny"
speakers are all you need.

For example, I have been pleased with TruAudio in-wall/ceiling
speakers. I've compared them to Polk and Niles and they sound every bit
as good. Above a certain quality level, speaker placement becomes more
of an issue than the subtle nuances of frequency-response differences.
And the ceiling is simply not a place where you can expect to get
audiophile sound.

Also, for speakers that end up in the attic, can things be improved
by
building an enclosure behind them?

Or you can use a speaker with a ported and tuned enclosure. Dayton
makes those too:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...rkthomasorg-20
Has a larger 9-1/2" cutout, but would be good for attic-above areas.

Adding an enclosure behind the speaker, assuming it is sized properly,
may improve the sound quality. Most of these speakers are designed to
perform fine without any enclosure, however.

Yes, I'd say you'll get a substantial kick out of mounting them as
rigidly as possible to some structure - esp. making sure they have as
rigid and massive a baffle as possible - if you HAVE TO use drywall -
well, that sucks. But consider it.

Check out madisound.com for really nice drivers for the purpose (they
have kits for this) at a great price.

Jonathan

David Jensen wrote:

Chuck (and anyone else willing to respond),

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I am encouraged. From the same
website that you listed, I see that Dayton also has the rectangular two way
in-wall speakers for $50/pair at
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-036.
Would it be fair to say that these should be even better than the round ones
since they have crossover circuitry in them?

Also, for speakers that end up in the attic, can things be improved by
building an enclosure behind them? If so, is one material better than
another?

IME, these sound a lot like Kenwood car speakers. Not bad, but
not real hi-fi either. Tannoy, OTOH, makes a really good design.

Second place on a real budget? Mirage. They make excellent
in-wall speakers that are affordable.

I've used the iw65ICTR in many installations and have never failed be amazed
by the room filling sound of such a modest device. They are a little tough
to find in the US however. They are mostly handled by custom installers.


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...


David Jensen wrote:

Chuck (and anyone else willing to respond),

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I am encouraged. From the
same
website that you listed, I see that Dayton also has the rectangular two
way
in-wall speakers for $50/pair at
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-036.
Would it be fair to say that these should be even better than the round
ones
since they have crossover circuitry in them?

Also, for speakers that end up in the attic, can things be improved by
building an enclosure behind them? If so, is one material better than
another?

IME, these sound a lot like Kenwood car speakers. Not bad, but
not real hi-fi either. Tannoy, OTOH, makes a really good design.

Second place on a real budget? Mirage. They make excellent
in-wall speakers that are affordable.

It is not unusual to mount the baffle plate of speakers directly to the
drywall. This is typical in home audio installations, even in fairly
expensive ones. Some speakers use a metal rough-in plate that is attached to
the studs to backup the attachment points. I don't believe (IMHO) that there
is any audible difference. The advantage, if any is a better structural
attachment of the driver to the mounting surface. Most of the speakers
specifically marketed for the purpose of wall or ceiling installation are
designed as an infinite baffle installation. In other words as long as the
speaker cone has sufficient rigidity, is not an acoustic suspension design,
there is [normally] no need to seal the back of the surface to which the
speaker is mounted. Most of round speakers have L shaped pieces that rotate
allowing the speaker to be installed from the front. This works perfectly
fine in the vast majority of cases.

These installations can sound quite good without spending large amounts of
money. Special retrofit of the drywall isn't necessary in most cases. It
certainly isn't necessary where a little more sound over there is desired. I
really do agree with both wkearney and LeeMoretti though their arguments
seem contridictory. Some say Bose is crap, more say it is overpriced. I don't
think it sounds bad given how hard they try to get high WAF (Wife Acceptance
Factor). Until people have heard really good audio they don't realize what
they have been missing. Then again there are those with a tin ear. Mr.
wkearney was making the point (I believe) that many no name drivers can be
marketed under a different name and be similar or identical to then name
brand. Regardless of this a decent driver with a good sized magnet can be
good enough to satisfy a given need without going overboard for a person
with modest expectations and limited pocketbook. And fellahs, there are some
and who are we to say they are wrong that think the large sums of money some
audio enthusiasts are willing to spend is just plain silly.

"noctilux" wrote in message
ups.com...
Yes, I'd say you'll get a substantial kick out of mounting them as
rigidly as possible to some structure - esp. making sure they have as
rigid and massive a baffle as possible - if you HAVE TO use drywall -
well, that sucks. But consider it.

Check out madisound.com for really nice drivers for the purpose (they
have kits for this) at a great price.

Jonathan

I've used the iw65ICTR in many installations and
have never failed be amazed by the room filling
sound of such a modest device...

You may also want to consider Proficient Audio. They make some very fine
sounding wall and ceiling speakers and prices are quite reasonable.

Note: Since I'm a dealer I'm not entirely without bias on this.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================

Robert L. Bass wrote



I've used the iw65ICTR in many installations and
have never failed be amazed by the room filling
sound of such a modest device...

You may also want to consider Proficient Audio. They make some very fine
sounding wall and ceiling speakers and prices are quite reasonable.


Note: Since I'm a dealer I'm not entirely without bias on this.





It is unfortunate that, as a dealer, you're entirely unable to make comment
about this without being bias .

How is your devotion to Jesus coming along?



Regards,
Robert L Bass

In article ,
says...
On 1/22/05 14:10, in article ,
"wkearney99" wrote:

Well, if you're talking about background music or news radio in the bathroom
or kitchen then it's really a waste of money to bother putting a pair of
Polk, Niles or name-your-audiophile-brand speakers in there. The quality
they might offer is just wasted for spaces like that.


I would say this statement is absolute rubbish. Quality is always noticed
and appreciated by all, even those not "audiophiles".

Anyone that thinks Polk or Niles brands represent "audiophile" speakers
should bow out of this thread and go to Best Buy.

I have owned several service-type businesses over the years, and always
replaced existing background music systems with high quality Bose systems

Aha... now the snake oil becomes apparent. Bose is crap. The only nice
thing about them is those $0.26 paper drivers take very little amp power
to drive them. True high-end speakers are usually inefficient (low SPLs)
due to the heavier driver construction amongst other reasons, so using
them all over the house gets to be a problem unless you just have truckloads
of cash to throw away.

And the results were always noticed and commented on by the
customers, who in many cases spent time waiting for their services to be
performed.

The placebo effect still works apparently.

Scratchy and tinny sound is NEVER appreciated, and psychologically is just
annoying and tension creating.

Then you shouldn't install Bose. No highs, no lows, ... Let me guess, you
put an acoustimess module in the corner so you can get awesome midrange
response down around 60 hz. sheesh.

The continued growth in ultra-high-quality clock radios is proof of point;

ROTFLMAO. Ultra-High-Quality Clock Radios. I never thought I'd hear
those words used together.

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

In article , says...
I've used the iw65ICTR in many installations and have never failed be amazed
by the room filling sound of such a modest device.

For the state of the art in custom enclosure, in-wall and in-ceiling speakers,
go he


http://www.calaudiotech.com/