Hi,

For years my venue has been archiving performances ( we are
a cultural preservation and historical society) via a sequential
cassette recorder. We also have been providing musician tapes
by request. [ I have 4 cassette wells; two for the archive sequence,
and two reserved for musician tapes.]

We are (finally) looking to upgrade the system but I haven't
been able to find any digital solutions as simple as our current
"load tapes and push record" solution.

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
I'd like to find a way to switch over to CD-R format for both
the archive and musician "tapes" with minimal extra work
for the sound booth. Are there any sequential CD recorders
out there (or other solutions) that might fit our needs? I'd like
to have a hard copy [CDs] at the end of the night without
the added step(s) of dumping a hard drive output to CD
or downloading to a computer (heck, the venue doesn't even
have a computer) etc.

Our music is acoustic (bluegrass, folk, country... ) mostly
close mic'd [or is that miked?] so I don't need to futz with
the tape mix. However we do plan do some multi-track
recordings for special events, like our song writers show.

I've done a little looking and all the solutions seem to be
more complex than cassette decks as well as cost an order
of magnitude more.

I'd like to bring an upgrade proposal to the board of directors
thus I'm open to suggestions...


Later...


Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural [and Historical] Society
www.AlbertHall.org
--

Ron Capik wrote:

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
I'd like to find a way to switch over to CD-R format for both
the archive and musician "tapes" with minimal extra work
for the sound booth. Are there any sequential CD recorders
out there (or other solutions) that might fit our needs? I'd like
to have a hard copy [CDs] at the end of the night without
the added step(s) of dumping a hard drive output to CD
or downloading to a computer (heck, the venue doesn't even
have a computer) etc.

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was not ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
...snip..

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was not ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmm, sounds like the right direction but I don't think I'd
want to jump on a not-ready-for-prime-time solution.
[ ..but I'll take a look at it.]

Any audio to DVD standalones out there? Should be
able to fit a 4 hour stream on one of those...

Later...

Ron capik
--

I know you said you want to go direct to CD but I would not recomend this.It
is much more reliable to go to a hard drive then dump to CD DVD or
whatever.With recording directly to the media you risk your recording
stopping due to bad media or glitches in the recording.CDs and DVDs are a
great medium the problem is its not as reliable on the fly as good old
analog tape.One glitch and you could lose your recording.

I don't know of any recorders like you want on the market as most recorders
record to hard drive first.The best thing to do would to invest in a small
in expensive computer to record with and use it to chop up the audio and
burn it at the end of the night.It really dosen't take that long to do this
once you get the hang of it.

Good Luck



Ron Capik wrote in message
...
Hi,

For years my venue has been archiving performances ( we are
a cultural preservation and historical society) via a sequential
cassette recorder. We also have been providing musician tapes
by request. [ I have 4 cassette wells; two for the archive sequence,
and two reserved for musician tapes.]

We are (finally) looking to upgrade the system but I haven't
been able to find any digital solutions as simple as our current
"load tapes and push record" solution.

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
I'd like to find a way to switch over to CD-R format for both
the archive and musician "tapes" with minimal extra work
for the sound booth. Are there any sequential CD recorders
out there (or other solutions) that might fit our needs? I'd like
to have a hard copy [CDs] at the end of the night without
the added step(s) of dumping a hard drive output to CD
or downloading to a computer (heck, the venue doesn't even
have a computer) etc.

Our music is acoustic (bluegrass, folk, country... ) mostly
close mic'd [or is that miked?] so I don't need to futz with
the tape mix. However we do plan do some multi-track
recordings for special events, like our song writers show.

I've done a little looking and all the solutions seem to be
more complex than cassette decks as well as cost an order
of magnitude more.

I'd like to bring an upgrade proposal to the board of directors
thus I'm open to suggestions...


Later...


Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural [and Historical] Society
www.AlbertHall.org
--

Ron Capik wrote in message ...
Hi,

For years my venue has been archiving performances ( we are
a cultural preservation and historical society) via a sequential
cassette recorder. We also have been providing musician tapes
by request. [ I have 4 cassette wells; two for the archive sequence,
and two reserved for musician tapes.]

We are (finally) looking to upgrade the system but I haven't
been able to find any digital solutions as simple as our current
"load tapes and push record" solution.

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
I'd like to find a way to switch over to CD-R format for both
the archive and musician "tapes" with minimal extra work
for the sound booth. Are there any sequential CD recorders
out there (or other solutions) that might fit our needs? I'd like
to have a hard copy [CDs] at the end of the night without
the added step(s) of dumping a hard drive output to CD
or downloading to a computer (heck, the venue doesn't even
have a computer) etc.

Our music is acoustic (bluegrass, folk, country... ) mostly
close mic'd [or is that miked?] so I don't need to futz with
the tape mix. However we do plan do some multi-track
recordings for special events, like our song writers show.

I've done a little looking and all the solutions seem to be
more complex than cassette decks as well as cost an order
of magnitude more.

I'd like to bring an upgrade proposal to the board of directors
thus I'm open to suggestions...


Later...


Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural [and Historical] Society
www.AlbertHall.org
--


Why not just get 2 of the real time CDR recorders. Made by several
companies. Lots of them have a loop through feed from the digital if
you want to go out to the next one. Some have a sync feature for
activation of recording to multiple machines. I know that the Marantz
ones have this. The other companies are Tascam, HHB, Sony, Denon and
suppose there are a few others.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

Troy wrote:

...snip..
analog tape.One glitch and you could lose your recording.

I don't know of any recorders like you want on the market as most recorders
record to hard drive first.The best thing to do would to invest in a small
in expensive computer to record with and use it to chop up the audio and
...snip..


Yes, points well taken. I'm looking at as many options as possible.

For what it's worth, the venue is an "all volunteer" facility that has just
celebrated 30 years of regular Saturday night shows. We just had that
cited in the congressional record among other places. Seems there's
a snowball's chance of changing that policy. I'm looking for solutions
that don't require me to volunteer any more time than necessary.

I have been thinking about the Mackie or Alesis hard disk multi-track
units, but there doesn't seem to be any easy way to dump them to
disk at the end of the night. Then too, I can record a lot of shows
before I need to dump anything, and I'd have the option of multi-track
for those "special show" recordings... might buy me the time to get
a computer set up to dump to. But then ...I'd still need to deal with the
musician CDs. Ahh, but the musician stuff need not be as robust as
the archive.

Just looking for as many options as possible at this time.

Thanks.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Ron in that case you may want to try one of the all in one digital porta
studios like tascam make.Some of them have a built in burner option.Also it
would give you multitrack capability if needed.
I'm not up to date on models,but I do know they are quite affordable.
This would probably be the easiest way for some one offs at the end of the
night.

Good Luck
Troy



Ron Capik wrote in message
...
Troy wrote:

...snip..
analog tape.One glitch and you could lose your recording.

I don't know of any recorders like you want on the market as most
recorders
record to hard drive first.The best thing to do would to invest in a
small
in expensive computer to record with and use it to chop up the audio and
...snip..


Yes, points well taken. I'm looking at as many options as possible.

For what it's worth, the venue is an "all volunteer" facility that has
just
celebrated 30 years of regular Saturday night shows. We just had that
cited in the congressional record among other places. Seems there's
a snowball's chance of changing that policy. I'm looking for solutions
that don't require me to volunteer any more time than necessary.

I have been thinking about the Mackie or Alesis hard disk multi-track
units, but there doesn't seem to be any easy way to dump them to
disk at the end of the night. Then too, I can record a lot of shows
before I need to dump anything, and I'd have the option of multi-track
for those "special show" recordings... might buy me the time to get
a computer set up to dump to. But then ...I'd still need to deal with the
musician CDs. Ahh, but the musician stuff need not be as robust as
the archive.

Just looking for as many options as possible at this time.

Thanks.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Troy wrote:

Ron in that case you may want to try one of the all in one digital porta
studios like tascam make.Some of them have a built in burner option.Also it
would give you multitrack capability if needed.
I'm not up to date on models,but I do know they are quite affordable.
This would probably be the easiest way for some one offs at the end of the
night.

Good Luck
Troy

I thought an option might be a hard drive ADAT clone and a porta-
to dump to disk but I don't think any of the ADAT clones can dump
to porta- disks easily... or maybe they do but I haven't found the
right combination yet.

I'm also thinking that the Mackie or Alesis boxes as standalones
with simple opperating systems might be more robust than any
Windoze box. [ ...or are you thinkin' Apple? ]

This may end up being two seperate systems; an archiver and
a musician dump.

Still thinking.

Later...

Ron
--

What I ment was a hard disk recorder with built in mixer and CD burner.

something like this

http://www.tascam.com/Products/2488.html

There are many versions of these by different companies.



Ron Capik wrote in message
...
Troy wrote:

Ron in that case you may want to try one of the all in one digital porta
studios like tascam make.Some of them have a built in burner option.Also
it
would give you multitrack capability if needed.
I'm not up to date on models,but I do know they are quite affordable.
This would probably be the easiest way for some one offs at the end of
the
night.

Good Luck
Troy

I thought an option might be a hard drive ADAT clone and a porta-
to dump to disk but I don't think any of the ADAT clones can dump
to porta- disks easily... or maybe they do but I haven't found the
right combination yet.

I'm also thinking that the Mackie or Alesis boxes as standalones
with simple opperating systems might be more robust than any
Windoze box. [ ...or are you thinkin' Apple? ]

This may end up being two seperate systems; an archiver and
a musician dump.

Still thinking.

Later...

Ron
--

Troy wrote:

What I ment was a hard disk recorder with built in mixer and CD burner.

something like this

http://www.tascam.com/Products/2488.html

There are many versions of these by different companies.
...snip..

Yes, I understand. I currently have my sound booth filled by
my sound board and don't have the desk space for another
mixer or two let alone the hands to run another mixer. Thus
I'm kind of looking for a rack or under the bench solution
rather than a small porta-multi track. I'd also be spending
bucks on a mixing I'd likely never use. Thus I keep looking
at things like the HD-24 or HR-24; all recorder, no mixer cost.
I believe the desk I have [Soundcraft MH-3, 40Ch... ] is a bit
better than what I might get in any of the porta- recorders.
....but then any of these units would be a hell of a lot better
than our old cassette tapes. ;-)

Oh, and the musicians have grown to expect their cassettes
to be available as soon as they finish their set. To make them
wait for a dump at the end of the night would [IMHO] be a bit of
a step backwards...

[ Hope I'm not sounding pig headed with all these caveats. ]
{ Wonder what other requirements I've forgotten to mention.}

Thanks.

Still thinking.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Alesis Masterlink http://alesis.com/products/ml9600/

Hey thats kind of cool.....that might just be what he's looking for.


Kurt Albershardt wrote in message
...
Alesis Masterlink http://alesis.com/products/ml9600/

Ron Capik wrote

We are (finally) looking to upgrade the system but I haven't
been able to find any digital solutions as simple as our current
"load tapes and push record" solution.

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
I'd like to find a way to switch over to CD-R format for both
the archive and musician "tapes" with minimal extra work
for the sound booth.

Why not just record one set per CD on a stand-alone CD recorder (or
two if you want to hand a disk to the musician after the show and keep
one for the archive)? Blanks are cheap enough so you don't have to
feel bad about letting half or more of it go to waste.

It takes a minute or two, depending on the machine, to finalize the
recording, so you might want to set the disks aside and finalize them
after the show is over. That way you won't do what I do sometimes and
forget to load in a new blank before the next set starts.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showit...?SKU=YAW16GXXX

There's a selection here. The Zoom comes in at 700 dollars.

We've used DVDs recorders direct from a camera for simple one hour shows, so
if it comes down to it, one would think changing DVDs is much easier than
having some type of system that changes a direct stream video into mpeg 1 or
whatever. However, if you are just doing audio there shouldn't be a problem
and you'd be taking (16 bit/48 kHz) 172 Mb/s transfer rate so DVD should be
fine for a few hours of recording audio. I wouldn't be afraid of doing it.
Plus, with some systems, you can do an immediate record on one platter and
then duplicate it right afterward. It would, at the least, replicate your 4
cassette wells and do a better job.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
...snip..

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can
swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was not
ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmm, sounds like the right direction but I don't think I'd
want to jump on a not-ready-for-prime-time solution.
[ ..but I'll take a look at it.]

Any audio to DVD standalones out there? Should be
able to fit a 4 hour stream on one of those...

Later...

Ron capik
--

Ooops, 1.72 Mb/s or 172,000 kb/s. In other words, 10 MB per minute for
stereo. 4.7 Gigs on DVD, and you've got LOTS of space. Not easily broken
up for distribution, but it's doable.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
We've used DVDs recorders direct from a camera for simple one hour shows,
so
if it comes down to it, one would think changing DVDs is much easier than
having some type of system that changes a direct stream video into mpeg 1
or
whatever. However, if you are just doing audio there shouldn't be a
problem
and you'd be taking (16 bit/48 kHz) 172 Mb/s transfer rate so DVD should
be
fine for a few hours of recording audio. I wouldn't be afraid of doing
it.
Plus, with some systems, you can do an immediate record on one platter and
then duplicate it right afterward. It would, at the least, replicate your
4
cassette wells and do a better job.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
...snip..

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can
swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was
not
ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmm, sounds like the right direction but I don't think I'd
want to jump on a not-ready-for-prime-time solution.
[ ..but I'll take a look at it.]

Any audio to DVD standalones out there? Should be
able to fit a 4 hour stream on one of those...

Later...

Ron capik
--

Still wrong on the values, but you get what I mean, I hope! g My fault.
Shouldn't be writing this at 6:30 AM after Thanksgiving! g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Ooops, 1.72 Mb/s or 172,000 kb/s. In other words, 10 MB per minute for
stereo. 4.7 Gigs on DVD, and you've got LOTS of space. Not easily broken
up for distribution, but it's doable.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
We've used DVDs recorders direct from a camera for simple one hour
shows,
so
if it comes down to it, one would think changing DVDs is much easier
than
having some type of system that changes a direct stream video into mpeg
1
or
whatever. However, if you are just doing audio there shouldn't be a
problem
and you'd be taking (16 bit/48 kHz) 172 Mb/s transfer rate so DVD should
be
fine for a few hours of recording audio. I wouldn't be afraid of doing
it.
Plus, with some systems, you can do an immediate record on one platter
and
then duplicate it right afterward. It would, at the least, replicate
your
4
cassette wells and do a better job.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Our total show is about 4 hours, sets are about 30 min, and
setup is typically festival style/sound check on the fly.
...snip..

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can
swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was
not
ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmm, sounds like the right direction but I don't think I'd
want to jump on a not-ready-for-prime-time solution.
[ ..but I'll take a look at it.]

Any audio to DVD standalones out there? Should be
able to fit a 4 hour stream on one of those...

Later...

Ron capik
--

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

Still wrong on the values, but you get what I mean, I hope! g My fault.
Shouldn't be writing this at 6:30 AM after Thanksgiving! g

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Ooops, 1.72 Mb/s or 172,000 kb/s. In other words, 10 MB per minute for
stereo. 4.7 Gigs on DVD, and you've got LOTS of space. Not easily broken
up for distribution, but it's doable.


What the heck are you doing typing responses at ~6 AM the day after
Thanksgiving?
Up and out early for the big sales? G

Yes, I get what you mean. I believe DVD might work well as an archive medium.
I can see my needs as being two different tasks; archive, and musician sets.
Thus DVDs on one (archive) machine and musician CDs on a basic CD machine.
Do you have any pointers to DVD boxes that might fit my wish list needs?


Thanks, ...now go get some coffee or something.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Mike Rivers wrote:

Ron Capik wrote

We are (finally) looking to upgrade the system but I haven't
been able to find any digital solutions as simple as our current
"load tapes and push record" solution.

...snip..

Why not just record one set per CD on a stand-alone CD recorder (or
two if you want to hand a disk to the musician after the show and keep
one for the archive)? Blanks are cheap enough so you don't have to
feel bad about letting half or more of it go to waste.

It takes a minute or two, depending on the machine, to finalize the
recording, so you might want to set the disks aside and finalize them
after the show is over. That way you won't do what I do sometimes and
forget to load in a new blank before the next set starts.

I'm really Mike Rivers )

--

I'm starting to build up a nice list of potential solutions. Though I've
burned
many CDs on my computers I've never used a standalone CD burner and thus
am not familiar with the start, stop, finalize procedure, but get the
feeling it's
similar to loading cassettes and pushing record.

I do have next to zero time between sets. One act enters stage right as
the other
exits stage left. I get the final set list at the beginning of the night
but never know
how many people will be in the group 'till the wander on stage. :-{
Try as I will, I can't seem to get the host/MC to check in the acts and
communicate
that information to me. Very much a down side of the casual atmosphere of
our venue.
....but I digress.

Thanks for the added input.

Later....

Ron Capik
--

Family left and I went to bed. I'm getting old because 9 PM is late on some
nights! Then again, I was up and cooking at 6 AM. g

As far as DVD recorders are concerned, probably not with your particular
requirements. I mean, I've used them and for a FOH stereo recording they do
fine, but I always run multitracks behind the scenes to mix when I get back
to the studio. But what I've used as DVD recorders is basically an
off-the-shelf recorder that I cram DVD-Rs into. I'm not saying I can't do a
good live mix, but when it comes down to choice, most musicians prefer a
multitrack mix over what's presented live. And it's cheap enough to do,
other than time.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

Still wrong on the values, but you get what I mean, I hope! g My
fault.
Shouldn't be writing this at 6:30 AM after Thanksgiving! g

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Ooops, 1.72 Mb/s or 172,000 kb/s. In other words, 10 MB per minute
for
stereo. 4.7 Gigs on DVD, and you've got LOTS of space. Not easily
broken
up for distribution, but it's doable.


What the heck are you doing typing responses at ~6 AM the day after
Thanksgiving?
Up and out early for the big sales? G

Yes, I get what you mean. I believe DVD might work well as an archive
medium.
I can see my needs as being two different tasks; archive, and musician
sets.
Thus DVDs on one (archive) machine and musician CDs on a basic CD machine.
Do you have any pointers to DVD boxes that might fit my wish list needs?


Thanks, ...now go get some coffee or something.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Scott Dorsey wrote:

...snip..

Microboards makes a standalone recorder with two transports that can swap
in the middle of recording. A friend who tried it said that it was not ready
for prime time but that the idea was a good one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmmm, didn't see that unit on the Microboards page but I did see
a Fostex multi-track hard drive box with a DVD burner option.

maybe one of those and a standalone CD box for the musician's
and I'd be set ...maybe.

Gotta check on the Fostex details.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

I'm starting to build up a nice list of potential solutions. Though I've
burned
many CDs on my computers I've never used a standalone CD burner and thus
am not familiar with the start, stop, finalize procedure, but get the
feeling it's
similar to loading cassettes and pushing record.

I do have next to zero time between sets. One act enters stage right as
the other
exits stage left. I get the final set list at the beginning of the night
but never know
how many people will be in the group 'till the wander on stage. :-{
Try as I will, I can't seem to get the host/MC to check in the acts and
communicate
that information to me. Very much a down side of the casual atmosphere of
our venue.
...but I digress.

Thanks for the added input.

Later....

Ron Capik
--

The standalone CDR recorders are not quite as simple or fast as a cassette
deck.

First, on my HHB 830, (and I am pretty sure that this is typical) it takes 18
seconds for the machine to recognize a new disc.

Second, it takes at least another 10-12 seconds for the machine to setup for
recording the disc.

When finished recording, you could set up the machine for self finalizing
(about 4-1/2 minutes) or manually finalize the disc, which the machine says
will take 2 minutes, but in reality is at least three minutes unless it decides
to hang during finalizing, in which case, it may be a little longer.

My solution would be to use two machines and rotate them, having one always
recording.

I use a single HHB 830 for documentation of high school bands at our festival
days at the University, but I have a fair amount of time between bands.

CDR recorders, unlike DAT machines and Hard Drive recorders are extremely
sensitive to physical shock. Mount them solidly and there is no problem, but
one bump will kill a disc. For this reason, plus the longer recording time, I
use a DAT on concert recording.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty