I just added a Yamaha comp/limiter for mixdowns, but the manual
contains NO helpful setup or usage info, ditto for their website. I
guess they're assuming I already know what I'm doing.

I already use a dbx compressor (always in it's "auto" mode) for most
non-MIDI stuff, but it's "true-RMS" feature doesn't work well for
limiting.

The Yamaha unit is fully manual, so I have threshold, ratio, attack,
release, along with input and output pots (including stereo linking).
I've found precious little on the 'net as far as BASIC settings for
compressor/limiters.

What might you recommend for hard limiting and then separately,
compression settings as I do stereo mixing? I'd like to put this unit
through its paces before I decide whether or not to keep it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

1) Set your input level correctly, so there is no distortion and plenty of
headroom.

2) Start with ratio about halfway. Turn down threshhold so that it just starts
to have an effect on the signal.

3) In most cases, set the attack and release to their fastest positions.

4) For more limiting, sneak the threshhold down a bit and the ratio up a bit.

5) Set your output level so that it is roughly equal to the input level when
bypassed.

On a stereo mix, I would start the same way, attack and release on fastest,
ratio about halfway, and just sneak threshhold down so that it starts affecting
the signal.

In general, the least compression is the best. If you hear clear artifacts,
like pumping, back off.

Just a quick starter primer.

"Blackburst" wrote in message
...
1) Set your input level correctly, so there is no distortion and plenty of
headroom.

2) Start with ratio about halfway. Turn down threshhold so that it just
starts
to have an effect on the signal.

3) In most cases, set the attack and release to their fastest positions.

4) For more limiting, sneak the threshhold down a bit and the ratio up a
bit.

5) Set your output level so that it is roughly equal to the input level
when
bypassed.

On a stereo mix, I would start the same way, attack and release on
fastest,
ratio about halfway, and just sneak threshhold down so that it starts
affecting
the signal.

In general, the least compression is the best....-----snip------
__________________________________________________ ____

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

Substantial compression on bass and drums and BGs, via auxed strip, delayed,
eqd etc - I could go on - is a really interesting and important way to work.
Certainly massive compression is a significant part of many of today's
recordings, particularly those aimed at airplay.

It's not something that can be taught or learned quickly. Getting a feel
for how the varialbe controls affect signal to your ears is pretty well
where you have to start. There are many tricks and tips to find.

You'd do well to get Bobby Owsinski's definitive work 'The Art of Mixing',
wherein there is much fine information and techniques from many pros. For
this book, go to www.musicbooksplus.com

Pumping is a cool effect, particularly on piano.

I'd say learn to work without the limiter and gate engaged, deal with the
compressor on it's own.

Otherwise, this is a fine start primer from Blackhurst.
__________________________________________________ __

If you hear clear artifacts,
like pumping, back off. Just a quick starter primer.

-rj-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
www.lchb.ca

"**bg**" wrote in message...

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

Substantial compression on bass and drums and BGs, via auxed strip, delayed,
eqd etc - I could go on - is a really interesting and important way to work.
Certainly massive compression is a significant part of many of today's
recordings, particularly those aimed at airplay.

This is what makes this business so much fun... there are 1000 different
ways to approach tracking and mixing, and there probably wouldn't be two
engineers out of 50 that would approach things the same way, although
their results might be surprisingly similar.

I'm rather happy to say that I still haven't, in 30 years of recording, *ever*
used a compressor on a kick or snare drum during tracking of my own
volition. I usually use a little 'over easy' on electric bass and vocal tracks,
but nothing more in tracking. Ocassionally, I'll use a peak limiter on the
kick and snare, and perhaps on instruments that have *serious* problems
with ultra-fast transients, but that's about it.

I'm a little more liberal in the mixdown stage, but I tend to stay away from
the whole "let's compress everything" thing just for the sake of making things
loud - which by the way, seriously screws with the broadcast chain and can
make things sound pretty darned bad over the airwaves.

It's not something that can be taught or learned quickly. Getting a feel
for how the varialbe controls affect signal to your ears is pretty well
where you have to start. There are many tricks and tips to find.

Hear, hear. I tend to use compression during the mix to add color and
to shape a sound in a particular way, not necessarily for the sake of
steady average levels. (Pray for good players). There is something new
to discover about various compressors and techniques every time you
turn on and plug in a different dynamics box.

Pumping is a cool effect, particularly on piano.

Being a jazz buff... g

I have never compressed an acoustic piano. In the case of such an airy
instrument, full of overtones and subtleties, I have to believe that the very
best compression would be fader moves.

I'd say learn to work without the limiter and gate engaged, deal with the
compressor on it's own.

Darn tootin'... learn to work without *any* of that crappola. If you can shape
up a nice mix without any dynamics controllers in the path, you'll have a leg
up on your competition and leave a product which the mastering house will
love you for... even though they may proceed to totally destroy it.


What's the best substitute for compression?

1). The judicious use of EQ to tame the problem frequencies.

2). Fader moves.

3). A great player.


Not necessarily in that order. g

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

If you have about $190 to spare, strongly look into the RNC compressor
from FMR Audio.

It's small and lightweight, so it fits your situation. It sounds very
good.

In your setup, I would simply do this:

1) Patch all the lavalier mics into the Mackie mixer.
2) Take the 1/4" main outputs on the mackie (not the xlr outs) and run
them into the RNC compressor.
3)Take the RNC 1/4" outputs into your mini-disc player. If your
mini-disc player has RCA inputs, then get a simple Hosa cable that has
1/4" mono jacks on one side, and RCA jacks on the other side (you can
get these cables for about $7 from Guitar Center).

Then set the RNC compressor to about medium everything. Then adjust
the controls on the RNC so about 2 gain reduction led's light up
everytime someone speaks, and if they really speak a loud word, you
get to about 4 or 5 lights.

Then listen to the headphone jack on the mini-disc player to see what
kind of sound is getting into the recorder.

That should really help your situation, and I believe the RNC will be
a huge step up in quality from your Alesis/Behringer stuff.

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:069pd.2998$TG2.888@trnddc01...

"**bg**" wrote in message...

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

Substantial compression on bass and drums and BGs, via auxed strip,
delayed,
eqd etc - I could go on - is a really interesting and important way to
work.
Certainly massive compression is a significant part of many of today's
recordings, particularly those aimed at airplay.

This is what makes this business so much fun... there are 1000 different
ways to approach tracking and mixing, and there probably wouldn't be two
engineers out of 50 that would approach things the same way, although
their results might be surprisingly similar.

I'm rather happy to say that I still haven't, in 30 years of recording,
*ever*
used a compressor on a kick or snare drum during tracking of my own
volition. I usually use a little 'over easy' on electric bass and vocal
tracks,
but nothing more in tracking. Ocassionally, I'll use a peak limiter on
the
kick and snare, and perhaps on instruments that have *serious* problems
with ultra-fast transients, but that's about it.

I'm a little more liberal in the mixdown stage, but I tend to stay away
from
the whole "let's compress everything" thing just for the sake of making
things
loud - which by the way, seriously screws with the broadcast chain and can
make things sound pretty darned bad over the airwaves.

It's not something that can be taught or learned quickly. Getting a
feel
for how the varialbe controls affect signal to your ears is pretty well
where you have to start. There are many tricks and tips to find.

Hear, hear. I tend to use compression during the mix to add color and
to shape a sound in a particular way, not necessarily for the sake of
steady average levels. (Pray for good players). There is something new
to discover about various compressors and techniques every time you
turn on and plug in a different dynamics box.

Pumping is a cool effect, particularly on piano.

Being a jazz buff... g

I have never compressed an acoustic piano. In the case of such an airy
instrument, full of overtones and subtleties, I have to believe that the
very
best compression would be fader moves.
________________________________________
Hey David,

I speak of (piano) effects from extreme and manipulated compression like
Bowie and Elton use on occasion (coupled with other fx I might add.)

I've observed that, in many senses, the most skilled recording engineers are
those that record jazz musicians. They know how to get down tracks that are
'tasty'.

I like 'tasty' instrumentalists, and it appears a jazz affectionado hears
how to get it down right.

In my world, if any compression is used, 90% is in the mixing only.

Congrats on your shop, looks like a grand place to work.

Any good steak houses nearby?

-rj-

www.lchb.ca

Otherwise, this is a fine start primer from Blackburst.

Thanks!

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

I was trying to interpret what the original poster was looking for. It sounded
like (s)he wanted to do some general limiting on a whole stereo mix, in order
to put more level/energy into the mix, for a higher overall level.

You are correct, there are many nuances to using compression, best learned by
using one, and making all the mistakes.

In order to reign-in transients, I suggested fast settings for attack and
release. I suggested a mid-setting on ratio to make the compression aggressive
without being overly-aggressive. And I suggested that (s)he just sneak the
threshhold down so that it only affects the loudest portions of the overall
mix.

There are vsome instances where I LOVE aggressive compression. Audio pro Danny
Caccavo has cited a number of Beatles recordings with audible compression (for
example, the drums on the up-tempo "Revolution".) My personal fave is Jimmy
Miller's compression on the drums in Traffic's "Hole In My Shoe", where the
thump of the bass drum actually sucks the cymbals down into the abyss. I think
I read that the compressor was malfunctioning, but they liked the effect!

I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone by doing
"ducking": I compress a group of crowd mics, using a group of announcer mics as
the trigger. I can push the crowd unGodly loud, but everytime the announcers
speak, it cuts a perfect hole in the crowd noise.

Compressors are cool devices, but it takes practice!

Blackburst wrote:

I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone by
doing
"ducking": I compress a group of crowd mics, using a group of announcer
mics as
the trigger. I can push the crowd unGodly loud, but everytime the
announcers
speak, it cuts a perfect hole in the crowd noise.

Oh so YOU'RE the guy. It sucks. Don't do that.

In all sincerity,

Jeff Jasper
Jeff Jasper Productions, West Monroe, La.

"Blackburst" wrote in message
...
Otherwise, this is a fine start primer from Blackburst.

Thanks!

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

I was trying to interpret what the original poster was looking for. It
sounded
like (s)he wanted to do some general limiting on a whole stereo mix, in
order
to put more level/energy into the mix, for a higher overall level.

You are correct, there are many nuances to using compression, best learned
by
using one, and making all the mistakes.
-----------snip--------
I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone by
doing
"ducking": I compress a group of crowd mics, using a group of announcer
mics as
the trigger. I can push the crowd unGodly loud, but everytime the
announcers
speak, it cuts a perfect hole in the crowd noise.

Compressors are cool devices, but it takes practice!
______________________________________
Have you ever used side-chaining (from eq unit to compressor) for 'ducking'?

-rj-
--
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
www.lchb.ca

I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone by
doing
"ducking"

Oh so YOU'RE the guy. It sucks. Don't do that.

In all sincerity,

I HAVE to. The crowd noise is WAY too low in level without it

Have you ever used side-chaining (from eq unit to compressor) for 'ducking'?


I usually trigger the compressor from a sub out of the announcer group. Can you
explain how the EQ part works?

"Blackburst" wrote in message
...
Have you ever used side-chaining (from eq unit to compressor) for
'ducking'?


I usually trigger the compressor from a sub out of the announcer group.
Can you
explain how the EQ part works?

___________________

Hey BB,

Read this guys entry, see:

http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum21/HTML/011118.html

Will get you some more stuff later.

-rj-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca www.lchb.ca

"jem" wrote in message
...
-----snip-------
What might you recommend for hard limiting and then separately,
compression settings as I do stereo mixing? I'd like to put this unit
through its paces before I decide whether or not to keep it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
___________________________

Here's a tutorial, see:

http://www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/dynamics/3.asp

-rj-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca www.lchb.ca

Blackburst wrote:

I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone
by
doing "ducking...."

Then I said:
Oh so YOU'RE the guy. It sucks. Don't do that.

To which Blackburst replied:
I HAVE to. The crowd noise is WAY too low in level without it

Well I suspected you were doing it to add some excitement, but I gotta tell
ya it does get fatiguing on the other end listening to the compressors pump.

I do think it's a good idea to have some compression on the crowd to
maintain the energy, and on the booth and field guys to keep all that under
control. But *keying* the crowd compression to the booth bus just makes it
all *too much* after the mix goes thru all the AGC's down the line. TV
needs more dynamics than radio to sound plausible.

If you could run the compressed crowd at least 6-8 dB down from the booth
guys, and let the rest of the chain ride that, it would sound much less
artificial but still "big." Sure, it wouldn't sound as great in the control
room, but it will sound much better by the time it gets to us. Heck, it
would still pump quite a bit.

I have great respect for you and the job you do. You are doing the second
hardest job in television. Your intentions are good, but the keying trick
just isn't coming out right by the time the audio gets thru the transmitter.
If the game or boxing match is lame, pumping up the excitement with tricks
in the booth is only gonna go so far before your effort becomes comical in
comparison to the video. So aircheck yourself! See how it's really coming
out on the other end. And I mean at home, not a dub from master control.
That way I think you'll get a reality check on any adjustments you make.
Other than the crowd pumping, I think you're doing a *fantastic* job!

Jeff Jasper
Jeff Jasper Productions, West Monroe, La.

And while we're bitching about TV sports audio, please tell SOMEBODY
to ditch the damn zipping baseball pitch effects. It was interesting
for about 3/4 of an inning, and now is _really_ annoyng.

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:17:17 GMT, "Jeff Jasper"
wrote:

Blackburst wrote:

I do audio for a network, and occasionally do sports. I amaze everyone
by
doing "ducking...."

Then I said:
Oh so YOU'RE the guy. It sucks. Don't do that.

Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

And while we're bitching about TV sports audio, please tell SOMEBODY
to ditch the damn zipping baseball pitch effects. It was interesting
for about 3/4 of an inning, and now is _really_ annoyng. BRBR

Wrong. It was interesting for about 3/4 of the first pitch. Was probably really
annoying long before that. This is baseball coverage for the short attention
span MTV generation, gotta zip it up somehow. Hint: baseball is not for the
attention span challenged.

Scott Fraser

(Blackburst) wrote in message ...
1) Set your input level correctly, so there is no distortion and plenty of
headroom.

2) Start with ratio about halfway. Turn down threshhold so that it just starts
to have an effect on the signal.

3) In most cases, set the attack and release to their fastest positions.

4) For more limiting, sneak the threshhold down a bit and the ratio up a bit.

5) Set your output level so that it is roughly equal to the input level when
bypassed.

On a stereo mix, I would start the same way, attack and release on fastest,
ratio about halfway, and just sneak threshhold down so that it starts affecting
the signal.

In general, the least compression is the best. If you hear clear artifacts,
like pumping, back off.

Just a quick starter primer.

What your describing is limiting not compression.

In article ,
Blackburst wrote:
I think the key to ducking is subtlety. You are right that many sports audio
guys overdo it (although there may be some exaggeration in the additional
compression of the broadcast chain). I try to do it so that it is not apparent.

But, er, uh, I DO occasionally do that thing with pushing a shotgun mic
everytime a pitcher throws a pitch...sorry! The producer LOVES it!

A lot of the weird pumping isn't due to the ducking at all, but is due to
the pumping effects from bad AVC later on in the chain. This is especially
bad on some local affiliates, and it's often worse on cable than over the
air because the cable headend has another layer of slow compression.

In actuality, the ducking tends to reduce the pumping from later overcompression
a little bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."