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Orchestra recording advise
I'm about to record a symphony orchestra and could use some advise...
This is a professional orchestra (Sundsvalls Kammarorkester http://www.sundsvallskammarorkester.nu/). This is a full orchestra with all the sections/instruments, but not so many of them. They are perhaps 30 musicians. No solo parts here. Purpose is for their own documentation. The room is approx (from memory) 15-20m x 30-40m x 8-10m, wood in walls and floor. There is a balcony along three walls. I'm not allowed to have any microphone stands on the stage/floor, so I'll hang them between the balconies. In front of/over the orchestra. I've got 2 Pearl DC-96 (cardioids with rectangular large membrane). I also have access to three Neumann KM83 (the older omnis). I've got an RME Quadmic (4 ch). In order to use five mics I need one more preampchannel but that can be organised if needed. I've been thinking along various permutations of how to set up. - the three omnis in front (violins, conductor, celli) + one or two DC-96 over the woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair over woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair wide spaced in front of orchestra (violins/celli) + KM83 over woodwinds - ... So, my two questions would be: 1) How would you these microphones? 2) How does one hang mics without loosing control of place and direction in 3D space when all I've got is a (long) piece of string and not much more.... The balconies go along both long sides all the way by the orchestra, but not on the short wall behind. So far, all I've come up with is how to hang a pair. I'll set up a string between the balconies. Thread it through one stereo bar. Put a gooseneck under the bar and a new bar on the gooseneck giving a "H" sideways where I can control the two mics. The bar will align with the string and gravity will keep the gooseneck pointing down so I can point the two mics hanging under the lower bar where I want. There must be a simpler way. How do I hang the mics that aren't in a pair? sincerely Lars Farm -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#2
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"Lars Farm" wrote in message news:1gli7ij.50hgc9biic6yN%mail.addr.can.be.found@ www.farm.se... I'm about to record a symphony orchestra and could use some advise... This is a professional orchestra (Sundsvalls Kammarorkester http://www.sundsvallskammarorkester.nu/). This is a full orchestra with all the sections/instruments, but not so many of them. They are perhaps 30 musicians. No solo parts here. Purpose is for their own documentation. The room is approx (from memory) 15-20m x 30-40m x 8-10m, wood in walls and floor. There is a balcony along three walls. I'm not allowed to have any microphone stands on the stage/floor, so I'll hang them between the balconies. In front of/over the orchestra. I've got 2 Pearl DC-96 (cardioids with rectangular large membrane). I also have access to three Neumann KM83 (the older omnis). I've got an RME Quadmic (4 ch). In order to use five mics I need one more preampchannel but that can be organised if needed. I've been thinking along various permutations of how to set up. - the three omnis in front (violins, conductor, celli) + one or two DC-96 over the woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair over woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair wide spaced in front of orchestra (violins/celli) + KM83 over woodwinds - ... So, my two questions would be: 1) How would you these microphones? I'd put up an ORTF pair using the DC-96es; this is quite dependent on the hall, but I'd probably pull them back farther than the conductor, perhaps several feet behind. Then, on separate tracks, I'd put a widely spaced pair of KM-83s in the same plane as the ORTF pair, for possible future blending-in, low-pass filtered (Barry Hufker's method, at least I think he was the first to publish the suggestion). Peace, Paul |
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#3
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Paul Stamler wrote:
"Lars Farm" wrote in message news:1gli7ij.50hgc9biic6yN%mail.addr.can.be.found@ www.farm.se... perhaps 30 musicians. Actually 43 if it makes a difference. Found a list of names. 1) How would you use these microphones? I'd put up an ORTF pair using the DC-96es; this is quite dependent on the hall, but I'd probably pull them back farther than the conductor, perhaps several feet behind. Then, on separate tracks, I'd put a widely spaced pair of KM-83s in the same plane as the ORTF pair, for possible future blending-in, plane? parallel to what? Would that be all microphones on a straight line parallel to the stage front? Same height, same distance from front of orchestra? or would you expect the omnis to end up closer to the orchestra? low-pass filtered (Barry Hufker's method, at least I think he was the first to publish the suggestion). Can't google any refs to this. What does it do in a sentence or two more than "low-pass filtered"? Thanks for your reply Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#4
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"Lars Farm" wrote in message news:1glidvg.n57xpaydk800N%mail.addr.can.be.found@ www.farm.se... Paul Stamler wrote: "Lars Farm" wrote in message news:1gli7ij.50hgc9biic6yN%mail.addr.can.be.found@ www.farm.se... perhaps 30 musicians. Actually 43 if it makes a difference. Found a list of names. 1) How would you use these microphones? I'd put up an ORTF pair using the DC-96es; this is quite dependent on the hall, but I'd probably pull them back farther than the conductor, perhaps several feet behind. Then, on separate tracks, I'd put a widely spaced pair of KM-83s in the same plane as the ORTF pair, for possible future blending-in, plane? parallel to what? Would that be all microphones on a straight line parallel to the stage front? Same height, same distance from front of orchestra? Yes. low-pass filtered (Barry Hufker's method, at least I think he was the first to publish the suggestion). Can't google any refs to this. What does it do in a sentence or two more than "low-pass filtered"? Barry's idea works something like this: Your ears don't discriminate direction by intensity differences at low frequency; they use time differences instead. Using a pair of spaced microphones for low frequencies (low-pass filtered so that only low frequencies are present) plus a pair of coincident or near-coincident microphones for the rest of the spectrum (high-pass filtered at the same frequency), in his experience, gives a more believable soundstage than all one system or the other. But I suggest putting the microphones on four separate tracks so you can decide for yourself after the recording is made. Personally, I'd rather do the ORTF recording with small-capsule condensers such as Shoepses or Sennheiser MKH40s, but the only cardioid mikes you mentioned wer the DC-96es, so I'd go with those. Peace, Paul |
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#5
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The room is approx (from memory) 15-20m x 30-40m x 8-10m, wood in walls and floor. There is a balcony along three walls. I'm not allowed to have any microphone stands on the stage/floor, so I'll hang them between the balconies. In front of/over the orchestra. if the room sounds really good, I'd be tempted to use the KM83's in a Jecklin disc array. You'd have to get them pretty close to the orchestra, only a couple of meters behind the conductor and high enough to get a good balance. You may find that the KM83's exagerate the lowfrequencies but this can be handled by using a high pass filter on them. Richard H. Kuschel "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty |
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#6
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I would go with an ORTF pair behind the conductor and your omnis as flank
microphones... My usually start position for this kind of thing is as follows (but is obviously modified as I hear necessary). Mics on one plane across the front of the orchestra about 2-3 meters out from the edge and about 3 meters high. When possible, I also use a spaced pair of cardiods as woodwind spots. Usually, my main pair is a blumlein or Mid Side, but ORTF has been good too. When I don't have woodwind spots, I like the M-S pair as I can put a tighter pickup in the center to focus the sound of the center of the orchestra. A hypercardiod mic can be a wonderful thing for that- it acts like a laser that you can focus on the woodwinds to capture more of their sound. I avoid all EQ on these mics as well as I don't like what it does to the sound usually. The only times I'll ever EQ anything is a high-pass or a shelf if there is excessive rumble in the room. As for hanging, there are plenty of techniques- you can string a wire across the front of the orchestra to "rest" the mics on. I usually hang from the cable and a second string (usually mono-filament fishing line) and move them around to get the required positioning I need. You can also use the cable and 2 helper lines from above (to form a triangle of sorts) and that can move the mics around on 3 planes (up/down, right/left, forward/back) --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies "Lars Farm" wrote in message news:1gli7ij.50hgc9biic6yN%mail.addr.can.be.found@ www.farm.se... I'm about to record a symphony orchestra and could use some advise... This is a professional orchestra (Sundsvalls Kammarorkester http://www.sundsvallskammarorkester.nu/). This is a full orchestra with all the sections/instruments, but not so many of them. They are perhaps 30 musicians. No solo parts here. Purpose is for their own documentation. The room is approx (from memory) 15-20m x 30-40m x 8-10m, wood in walls and floor. There is a balcony along three walls. I'm not allowed to have any microphone stands on the stage/floor, so I'll hang them between the balconies. In front of/over the orchestra. I've got 2 Pearl DC-96 (cardioids with rectangular large membrane). I also have access to three Neumann KM83 (the older omnis). I've got an RME Quadmic (4 ch). In order to use five mics I need one more preampchannel but that can be organised if needed. I've been thinking along various permutations of how to set up. - the three omnis in front (violins, conductor, celli) + one or two DC-96 over the woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair over woodwinds - DC-96 coincident pair at conductor + KM83 pair wide spaced in front of orchestra (violins/celli) + KM83 over woodwinds - ... So, my two questions would be: 1) How would you these microphones? 2) How does one hang mics without loosing control of place and direction in 3D space when all I've got is a (long) piece of string and not much more.... The balconies go along both long sides all the way by the orchestra, but not on the short wall behind. So far, all I've come up with is how to hang a pair. I'll set up a string between the balconies. Thread it through one stereo bar. Put a gooseneck under the bar and a new bar on the gooseneck giving a "H" sideways where I can control the two mics. The bar will align with the string and gravity will keep the gooseneck pointing down so I can point the two mics hanging under the lower bar where I want. There must be a simpler way. How do I hang the mics that aren't in a pair? sincerely Lars Farm -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#7
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Thanks for your reply,
Benjamin Maas wrote: I would go with an ORTF pair behind the conductor and your omnis as flank microphones... I'm not sure about how to interpret "flank" for the omnis. Would the flanks be an ordinary A-B stereo pair 2-4' separated with the ORTF in the middle, or the omni pair dividing the front in thirds or even further out? sincerley Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#8
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"Lars Farm" wrote in message ...
Thanks for your reply, Benjamin Maas wrote: I would go with an ORTF pair behind the conductor and your omnis as flank microphones... I'm not sure about how to interpret "flank" for the omnis. Would the flanks be an ordinary A-B stereo pair 2-4' separated with the ORTF in the middle, or the omni pair dividing the front in thirds or even further out? Wide spaced microphones- sometimes referred to as a 3-point setup. I generally start with the wides at about the 2nd row of violins and cellos. Pan each hard right and left. You'll find that the focus and center of your sound comes from the center pair and the wides will add width and spaciousness to the sound. --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies |
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#9
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Lars Farm wrote:
I'm about to record a symphony orchestra and could use some advise... Thanks to all who responed here and by mail. I'm just back from the consert. I took your advise as best I could. I used the Pearl DC-96 in ORTF surrounded by two KM-83, approximatelly at the first violin/cello. About 2,5-3m high, just behind conductor which wouldw be 1,5-2m in front of the orchestra. So far it seems to sound just fine (but I do have four tracks that shall become two...) The performance consistently was very good (as expected). The orchestra played well and inspired. Inspired in part because they had quite a special task this evening. The very first performance of Jörgen Dafgårds Sinfonia no 1, a great piece and a great performance. Quite difficult, but performed masterly. The piece contains a lot, but is still quite accesible both for a trained ear and someone more casualy interested in modern music. Keep your eyes and ears open to this young swedish composer. He'll write more... The conductor was also special. He is the orchestras new chief (?) conductor, Christian Lindberg (well known world class trombone soloist when not conducting) so it was quite an evening. Thank you all Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#10
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Lars Farm wrote: I'm about to record a symphony orchestra and could use some advise... I've got 2 Pearl DC-96 (cardioids with rectangular large membrane). I also have access to three Neumann KM83 (the older omnis). I've got an RME Quadmic (4 ch). In order to use five mics I need one more preampchannel but that can be organised if needed. If you want to keep it simple, mount two of the omnis on a Jecklin Disk that's set up slightly behind and above the Conductor's position. Make a test two-channel recording. If you hear too much room, move the Disk forward. If not enough, move it back. That's it. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
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#11
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Benjamin Maas wrote:
You'll find that the focus and center of your sound comes from the center pair and the wides will add width and spaciousness to the sound. The event was yesterday. I used ORTF surrounded by two KM-83, approximately at the first violin/cello. After moving them back and forth and up/dow a bit during the three hour rehearsal I ended up with the miks about 2,5-3m high, just behind the conductor which would be 1,5-2m in front of the orchestra. This can be seen as two parallel recordings - AB stereo and ORTF(ish  .Interestingly they have quite different character. They're both good in their own way... The center cardioid pair has much more reach into the orchestra, in all directions. There is good balance left-right, front-back and room-orchestra. Easier to hear the separate sections and instruments and their placement in space. Clear, true and pleasant, but somehow thinner than the omnis. The omni pair has a fuller or richer tone. Quite appealing. OTOH Left-right balance is OK, but not as distinct or precise as the center pair. The balance between front and back of orchestra favours front. The violins and celli covers the woodwinds a bit. Placement I suppose. It surprises me somewhat that the omnis appears to want to be farther [out|up] in the room than the cardioids. This would then give problems with another and unrelated balance, between room and orchestra. I wonder how much of this has to do with techniques in principle (ORTF vs AB) and application of those techniques. That is, are these diffrences to be expected whenever you choose between spaced omnis/near coincidence cardioids or is this the microphones or is it me (mik placement)? As for levels... I figured that the ORTF pair would be the important pair since I had experience with that. So I set levels primarily for that at the rehearsal with peaks at what I thought was about 10-15dB down. I set levels for the AB pair slightly lower as insurance for overs in the other pair. There were no overs at the consert even though it was too tight for my taste at times. They really put in another gear for the actual performance... Even though I took levels down slightly in the pause this is what I got... Data from the WAV-files (what actually happened (after pause)): - rehearsal: peak = - 5 dBFS max rms = -16 dBFS (I felt that that ought to be safe) - performance: peak = - 0,73 dBFS (and I had taken levels down a bit ...) max rms = -11 dBFS L -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#12
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Richard Kuschel wrote:
if the room sounds really good, I'd be tempted to use the KM83's in a Jecklin disc array. I'm tempted and I will ... one of these days... Just need to get down to actually build one. When that decision is made lots of unknowns will show. For instance, just how does one fixate the baffle on a micstand...? partstlist (or is it Bill Of Material (BOM) in English)? sincerely Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se |
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#13
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Richard Kuschel wrote:
if the room sounds really good, I'd be tempted to use the KM83's in a Jecklin disc array. I'm tempted and I will ... one of these days... Just need to get down to actually build one. When that decision is made lots of unknowns will show. For instance, just how does one fixate the baffle on a micstand...? partstlist (or is it Bill Of Material (BOM) in English)? sincerely Lars -- lars farm // http://www.farm.se lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se I use a 3/8X 16 stud in the baffle. Adapters are available to get this onto a mic stand. Richard H. Kuschel "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty |
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