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#1
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X-Y, 3 to 1 rule, acoustic guitar recording
I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio
of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks |
#2
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caveplayer wrote:
I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. This is a reasonable ballpark for placement of microphones that are being summed to mono, where you don't want cancellation between them. It has _nothing_ to do with XY stereo. With typical cardioid microphones summed to mono, this is about the point where cancellation effects start being noticed. With tighter microphones, you can get farther away before it's a problem. With wider microphones, you can't get as far away. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. But you are using those as a stereo pair. They aren't being summed to mono, they are being panned wide. So cancellation isn't an issue at all. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) No, you can try an ORTF pair to begin with. If it's too wide, move the mikes in. If it's too narrow, you can pull them out. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#4
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#5
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If I have this right-
The three to one rule is to avoid phase cancellation between mics and does not apply to X-Y configurations. I originally heard of the three to one rule in Lou Burroughs book- Microphone Design and Application caveplayer wrote: I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks |
#6
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"andrewunix" wrote in message ... 6 Oct 2004 06:23:22 -0700, suggested: I think you're mixing up your rules. In an x-y stereo configurationn the capsules should be as close together as possible, and for cardioids they should be positioned at a 90-degree angle from each other, with the center of the source in between them. Actually the classic XY or ORTF configurations using cardioid microphones angle them at 110 degrees. With hypercardioids you'd start at 90 degrees. Vary either angle as needed (there's been another thread on that going for a couple of weeks now). Peace, Paul |
#7
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Joe Boerst wrote:
The three to one rule is to avoid phase cancellation between mics and does not apply to X-Y configurations. I originally heard of the three to one rule in Lou Burroughs book Microphone Design and Application The Fig. of Lou Burroughs are here to see: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Die3zu1Regel.pdf The topic is: The 3:1 rule for mic setup for pop recording. That is to show that this has nothing to do with a main X/Y-microphone. The rule is only for multi micing. Look at the smoother frequency response when you use microphone 4 or 5 in connection with mic 1. Eberhard Sengpiel German forum for microphone recordings and sound studio techniques http://www.sengpielaudio.com |
#8
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(caveplayer) wrote in message . com...
I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks You're getting two different mic techniques mixed up. XY is a coincident technique (usually) involving two directional (such as cardioid) mics crossed at (about) 90 degrees, with the two capsules either right next to or right over one another. This way, wherever the sounds originate, they arrive at both capsules simultaneously. Thus, for your setup, you would simply place the pair of mics at 3 to 4 feet away from your instrument. This seems a little close, however. I'd suggest experimenting with this distance, depending on how good the room or stage sounds. The "3 to 1" rule is when using close single mics on several instruments. The reason for this is to avoid phasing problems when more than one mic picks up the same instrument. By having the intended mic 3x closer to an instrument than the mics used for other instruments, the bleed is far enough down that phasing problems are minimized. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
#9
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As I understand it, this rule doesn't apply to X-Y or any other
coincident pair technique. It's a rule of thumb for multiple mic situations where you are trying to keep phase problems from occuring between mics which are set to pick up different sources and there is some bleed in each from the source they are not meant to pick up. It's really only relevant for controlling the sound of bleed when the mics are mixed together. If you have, say, two mics on one guitar cab and are mixing them together at close to the same level, the 3 to 1 rule is not relevant. (caveplayer) wrote in message . com... I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks |
#10
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(caveplayer) wrote in message . com...
I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks They won't kick you off! Hell, you seem all right to me. But I believe when you used the term "x-y configuration," you actually described what is commonly referred to as a "stereo pair." http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997...reomiking.html Others more knowledgeable than I on these matters will perhaps discuss the relative merits of coincident techniques vs. space pair mics for your specific application. |
#11
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#12
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Wed, 06 Oct 2004 16:26:05 GMT, suggested:
: : "andrewunix" wrote in message : ... : 6 Oct 2004 06:23:22 -0700, suggested: : : I think you're mixing up your rules. In an x-y stereo configurationn the : capsules should be as close together as possible, and for cardioids they : should be positioned at a 90-degree angle from each other, with the center : of the source in between them. : : Actually the classic XY or ORTF configurations using cardioid microphones : angle them at 110 degrees. With hypercardioids you'd start at 90 degrees. : Vary either angle as needed (there's been another thread on that going for a : couple of weeks now). Ah, I always get that confused. Thanks for the clarification. -- agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg |
#13
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Ben Bradley wrote in message . ..
On 6 Oct 2004 06:23:22 -0700, (caveplayer) wrote: Yes I know. that was just a typo. I realized just after i posted. I meant to say spaced pair. I read about these basic setups from Harmony Central, a guitar website. They do suggest, and even show a picture, using spaced pair for a single guitar. I tried the X-Y and yes, it does produce good mono. You can tell especially by panning and seeing that it does basically nothing. I want a bit more stereo sound. thanks |
#14
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(Karl Winkler) wrote in message . com...
(caveplayer) wrote in message . com... I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks You're getting two different mic techniques mixed up. XY is a coincident technique (usually) involving two directional (such as cardioid) mics crossed at (about) 90 degrees, with the two capsules either right next to or right over one another. This way, wherever the sounds originate, they arrive at both capsules simultaneously. Thus, for your setup, you would simply place the pair of mics at 3 to 4 feet away from your instrument. This seems a little close, however. I'd suggest experimenting with this distance, depending on how good the room or stage sounds. The "3 to 1" rule is when using close single mics on several instruments. The reason for this is to avoid phasing problems when more than one mic picks up the same instrument. By having the intended mic 3x closer to an instrument than the mics used for other instruments, the bleed is far enough down that phasing problems are minimized. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com Jeeez, i made a mistake, i meant to say spaced pair! Well what you said makes sense. However, i was not enthralled with my first experiment with X-Y, but i did it very close, like one foot away. The website Harmony central, which is a pretty good guitar website, suggests using a spaced pair for one guitar. Is this a dumb thing to do? thanks. |
#15
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"caveplayer" wrote in message om... Jeeez, i made a mistake, i meant to say spaced pair! Well what you said makes sense. However, i was not enthralled with my first experiment with X-Y, but i did it very close, like one foot away. The website Harmony central, which is a pretty good guitar website, suggests using a spaced pair for one guitar. Is this a dumb thing to do? Not necessarily. I've used both XY and spaced pairs for single acoustic guitars and gotten results that were good, but different. XY produces a smallish sound, often good for mixing with other things. Spaced pair typically produces a "larger-than-life" sound, at least when I do it and pan hard L & R. Panned closer to the center (panpots at, say, 10 and 2 o'clock) it can give a very nice effect. Peace, Paul |
#16
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(caveplayer) wrote in message . com...
(Karl Winkler) wrote in message . com... (caveplayer) wrote in message . com... I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks You're getting two different mic techniques mixed up. XY is a coincident technique (usually) involving two directional (such as cardioid) mics crossed at (about) 90 degrees, with the two capsules either right next to or right over one another. This way, wherever the sounds originate, they arrive at both capsules simultaneously. Thus, for your setup, you would simply place the pair of mics at 3 to 4 feet away from your instrument. This seems a little close, however. I'd suggest experimenting with this distance, depending on how good the room or stage sounds. The "3 to 1" rule is when using close single mics on several instruments. The reason for this is to avoid phasing problems when more than one mic picks up the same instrument. By having the intended mic 3x closer to an instrument than the mics used for other instruments, the bleed is far enough down that phasing problems are minimized. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com Jeeez, i made a mistake, i meant to say spaced pair! Well what you said makes sense. However, i was not enthralled with my first experiment with X-Y, but i did it very close, like one foot away. The website Harmony central, which is a pretty good guitar website, suggests using a spaced pair for one guitar. Is this a dumb thing to do? thanks. OK, I can see how you got that. However, a spaced pair is another stereo technique (like XY) and again, the 3:1 rule is about close miking with mono mics on an instrument each. One "rule of thumb" I've seen (and tried) with spaced pair can also be confused with the 3:1 rule. The idea is to place one of the mics in your spaced pair 1/3 of the way from the left edge of your instrument or ensemble, then the right mic 1/3 of the way in from the right edge of the instrument or ensemble. Something like this: --------------------------- | | | instrument or group | | | --------------------------- --1/3---1/3-----1/3-- 0--mics--0 The key here is to have them the "correct" distance from the instrument/ensemble. I've found, however, that typically the mics have to be closer together than that or else you get a "hole in the middle" of the sound. Also, usually it is not realistic to have a classical guitar that sounds as big as a house... I agree, though, that spaced pair with real omnis is usually far better than XY, in terms of a pleasing sound and a nice soundstage. *IF* it is done well. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
#17
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"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
... Actually the classic XY or ORTF configurations using cardioid microphones angle them at 110 degrees. With hypercardioids you'd start at 90 degrees. Vary either angle as needed (there's been another thread on that going for a couple of weeks now). Define "classic." I use 110 degrees for ORTF (since that's what they specified and it's a fundamental part of the design), but I use 90 degrees for X-Y. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#18
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"caveplayer" wrote: Yes I know. that was just a typo. I realized just after i posted. I meant to say spaced pair. I read about these basic setups from Harmony Central, a guitar website. They do suggest, and even show a picture, using spaced pair for a single guitar. I tried the X-Y and yes, it does produce good mono. You can tell especially by panning and seeing that it does basically nothing. I want a bit more stereo sound. thanks The MXL 603s has such a wide cardioid pattern that it's basically omni in this application. I've had okay luck with a slightly narrower varient of ORTF on solo guitar. I don't think it's that natural of a sound but using those particular mics it's a lot wider stereo than XY. -jw |
#19
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"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message news:6ye9d.39445$223.14705@edtnps89... "Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... Actually the classic XY or ORTF configurations using cardioid microphones angle them at 110 degrees. With hypercardioids you'd start at 90 degrees. Vary either angle as needed (there's been another thread on that going for a couple of weeks now). Define "classic." I use 110 degrees for ORTF (since that's what they specified and it's a fundamental part of the design), but I use 90 degrees for X-Y. Classic (in this context): widely accepted over the years. Peace, Paul |
#20
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The key here is to have them the "correct" distance from the
instrument/ensemble. I've found, however, that typically the mics have to be closer together than that or else you get a "hole in the middle" of the sound. Also, usually it is not realistic to have a classical guitar that sounds as big as a house... I agree, though, that spaced pair with real omnis is usually far better than XY, in terms of a pleasing sound and a nice soundstage. *IF* it is done well. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com thanks, i agree that the guitar shouldn't sound 'as big as a house' Check out these pictures, http://www.guitarists.net/lessons/vi...ic_guitar.html The 'shoulder float' sounded good but with the shoulder mic pointing down. I really have not experimented much with ortf. If i do an ortf, should the distance between the mics stay the same regardless of distance from the instrument? Because I don't want to have the mics that close. |
#21
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"caveplayer" wrote in message
om... The 'shoulder float' sounded good but with the shoulder mic pointing down. I really have not experimented much with ortf. If i do an ortf, should the distance between the mics stay the same regardless of distance from the instrument? Because I don't want to have the mics that close. Yes. The main drawback of ORTF in this context is that it tends to exaggerate any motion on the part of the player. If s/he moves an inch or two, the guitar jumps around between speakers. Peace, Paul |
#22
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'Cuse me, Karl, but when did you move from Neumann USA? Did I just go blank
and miss the announcement? -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Karl Winkler" wrote in message om... (caveplayer) wrote in message . com... I've heard the rule of thumb for x-y configuration is that the ratio of distance between mics to distance from instrument should be about 3 to 1. Is there any justification for this? So lets say, i'm using small cap condensor mics (i have MXL 603S pair) and recording classical guitar. I want a bit of the room sound so i have the mics about 3-4 feet from the guitsr. So should they really be about 9-12 feet apart? And if so where do i point them. (you can kick me off at any time, but i just like the advice i get here much better than rec.classical.guitar) thanks You're getting two different mic techniques mixed up. XY is a coincident technique (usually) involving two directional (such as cardioid) mics crossed at (about) 90 degrees, with the two capsules either right next to or right over one another. This way, wherever the sounds originate, they arrive at both capsules simultaneously. Thus, for your setup, you would simply place the pair of mics at 3 to 4 feet away from your instrument. This seems a little close, however. I'd suggest experimenting with this distance, depending on how good the room or stage sounds. The "3 to 1" rule is when using close single mics on several instruments. The reason for this is to avoid phasing problems when more than one mic picks up the same instrument. By having the intended mic 3x closer to an instrument than the mics used for other instruments, the bleed is far enough down that phasing problems are minimized. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
#23
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The point being that one works within the area that sounds best on the
guitar, in this case. However, nobody really close mics an acoustic guitar except in live situations so as to help alleviate bleed. 18" to 24" is fine, but the diaphragms should be equidistant from the source, and defined by a triangle to help deliniate the plane of the diaphragms. But you can use headphones to help you move the mics during a setup if the player isn't you, because you'll intimately hear the differences in mic placement. So ultimately the choice comes down to you as where it sounds best. All the math in the world doesn't describe good sound, but it does describe a good starting place. Also, in a spaced pair, don't feel that one should have to use the same mics on both sides. It's not necessary, nor necessarily the best place to start. One may use a small diaphragm condenser for the 12th fret position, whilst using a U87 or any number of large diaphragm mics at the bridge position. It's similar to overhead miking of drums in that neither mic is actually going to be operating in exactly the same set of frequencies because of the acoustics of the instrument. How you choose to view it will dictate how you mic it. For instance, I may well decide that a couple of U87s are the perfect thing for an acoustic guitar, but then I may not. I might use totally different mics, regardless of their cost, or I may use a number of mics over and above what a standard spaced pair would suggest. Some acoustic guitars project extensively and I might want another mic some 6' back (still follows the 3:1 rule at 24" for the spaced pair). The point is not to get bogged down by the concept, but rather to use it as a starting point to find the sound you want to represent for the instrument. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "caveplayer" wrote in message om... The key here is to have them the "correct" distance from the instrument/ensemble. I've found, however, that typically the mics have to be closer together than that or else you get a "hole in the middle" of the sound. Also, usually it is not realistic to have a classical guitar that sounds as big as a house... I agree, though, that spaced pair with real omnis is usually far better than XY, in terms of a pleasing sound and a nice soundstage. *IF* it is done well. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com thanks, i agree that the guitar shouldn't sound 'as big as a house' Check out these pictures, http://www.guitarists.net/lessons/vi...ic_guitar.html The 'shoulder float' sounded good but with the shoulder mic pointing down. I really have not experimented much with ortf. If i do an ortf, should the distance between the mics stay the same regardless of distance from the instrument? Because I don't want to have the mics that close. |
#24
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message ...
'Cuse me, Karl, but when did you move from Neumann USA? Did I just go blank and miss the announcement? Roger, I started at Lectrosonics on August 16th, after taking a few weeks off to "decompress" (compression isn't only bad for audio! g Actually, though, I hadn't been directly involved in the Neumann/USA operation for a couple of years. Instead, I had taken over marketing communications for Sennheiser, and then at the beginning of this year, taken over business management for all of the Sennheiser pro products and markets. BUT it was time to step off that boat onto one with a different culture, and moving at a different pace. Not only that, but I've been an admirer of Lectrosonics for years... so it all worked out OK and now I'm back in my home town of Albuquerque, NM, enjoying the desert weather (no mold here!) and the incredible scenery. Can't complain, although sometimes I still do (did I just rip that off from Joe Walsh?) If you're heading to AES, let's grab a beer or something. There may be a few of us going out for a scotch after the show on the first day... -Karl |
#25
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message ...
The point being that one works within the area that sounds best on the guitar, in this case. However, nobody really close mics an acoustic guitar except in live situations so as to help alleviate bleed. 18" to 24" is fine, but the diaphragms should be equidistant from the source, and defined by a triangle to help deliniate the plane of the diaphragms. But you can use headphones to help you move the mics during a setup if the player isn't you, because you'll intimately hear the differences in mic placement. So ultimately the choice comes down to you as where it sounds best. All the math in the world doesn't describe good sound, but it does describe a good starting place. Hear Hear! g Also, in a spaced pair, don't feel that one should have to use the same mics on both sides. It's not necessary, nor necessarily the best place to start. One may use a small diaphragm condenser for the 12th fret position, whilst using a U87 or any number of large diaphragm mics at the bridge position. It's similar to overhead miking of drums in that neither mic is actually going to be operating in exactly the same set of frequencies because of the acoustics of the instrument. How you choose to view it will dictate how you mic it. For instance, I may well decide that a couple of U87s are the perfect thing for an acoustic guitar, but then I may not. I might use totally different mics, regardless of their cost, or I may use a number of mics over and above what a standard spaced pair would suggest. Some acoustic guitars project extensively and I might want another mic some 6' back (still follows the 3:1 rule at 24" for the spaced pair). I'd like to point out, however, that using two different mics may work perfectly to get the sound you want, but it will not generate a realistic soundstage. Spaced pair in general may not satisfy some requirements for a "realistic soundstage" but by using two matched mics (by that I mean the same type), and careful placement, it can sound quite realistic in playback. Not the case for two dissimilar mics. Not to say the result isn't stereo, because it is. But it's not a stable soundstage IMO. The point is not to get bogged down by the concept, but rather to use it as a starting point to find the sound you want to represent for the instrument. Agreed. No point in using any technique or approach unless it sounds good, and sounds good to *you*. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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