I've been a solo amateur home studio recording hobbyist for many years
now and I used to think I knew what I was doing (but my gear wasn't
good enough.) Lately I have been reading this NG and have started to
question everything. Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to. But
there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly. A few
years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

Your wisdom on this is greatly appreciated.

gary

gary wrote:

So what does one want a mic pre to do?

One wants a mic pre to provide a sound that satisfies one when tracking
the sources one tracks with the mics one has or intends to buy. I am not
trying to be obtuse, and I know people will chime in with technical
information that may or may not help you.

Neither the Rolls nor the Behringers are terrific preamps in the large
picture. So I'd say your best move would be either to go where there are
more than a few good preamps to audition using your own voice and mics
with which you are familiar, or to buy an FMR RNP and play with it until
you think you need/want to add another preamp. The RNP is good enough to
put you in the pro ballpark, sound quality wise, unless you need to use
low sensitivity ribbon mics on failry quiet sources.

Be a neutral signal gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

Yes and yes, for me, and yes and no, and no and yes for other folks I
respect. This is severely subjective territory. It all comes down to
what you like. Reads to me like you have figured out what you might not
like all the time and could benefit from working with something upscale
that doesn't break the piggybank.

www.fmraudio.com

--
ha

gary wrote:

So what does one want a mic pre to do?

One wants a mic pre to provide a sound that satisfies one when tracking
the sources one tracks with the mics one has or intends to buy. I am not
trying to be obtuse, and I know people will chime in with technical
information that may or may not help you.

Neither the Rolls nor the Behringers are terrific preamps in the large
picture. So I'd say your best move would be either to go where there are
more than a few good preamps to audition using your own voice and mics
with which you are familiar, or to buy an FMR RNP and play with it until
you think you need/want to add another preamp. The RNP is good enough to
put you in the pro ballpark, sound quality wise, unless you need to use
low sensitivity ribbon mics on failry quiet sources.

Be a neutral signal gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

Yes and yes, for me, and yes and no, and no and yes for other folks I
respect. This is severely subjective territory. It all comes down to
what you like. Reads to me like you have figured out what you might not
like all the time and could benefit from working with something upscale
that doesn't break the piggybank.

www.fmraudio.com

--
ha

gary wrote:
I've been a solo amateur home studio recording hobbyist for many years
now and I used to think I knew what I was doing (but my gear wasn't
good enough.) Lately I have been reading this NG and have started to
question everything. Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

They give you between 20 and 70 dB of gain.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to. But
there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

That depends on your job. For the most part, I prefer a straight wire
with gain. But since you can't get that, and you always get some colorations,
you have to pick the colorations you want.

There are some jobs where you might want euphonic colorations, but I don't
see the preamp as being the best possible place to get that. Other folks
do.

The other problem is that because the preamp provides a load to the microphone,
different preamps can make mikes sound differently because they load it
differently. This is much more of an issue with ribbons and moving coil
dynamic mikes than condensers.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly. A few
years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

Get better monitors and spend some time listening. You might want to try
the Golden Ears program from Dave Moulton. If you don't have the monitor
chain or the hearing experience to tell the difference, you won't have
anything to go by other than the excuse of some random guy on the internet
like me. Spend time developing your listening skills and your monitor
system before you worry about anything else. Once you know what things
should sound like, then you can worry about getting them that way.

Your wisdom on this is greatly appreciated.

People worry too much. But rent a really top-notch neutral preamp like
a Great River or Millennia Media for a weekend just to see if you can
hear what it's _not_ doing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

gary wrote:
I've been a solo amateur home studio recording hobbyist for many years
now and I used to think I knew what I was doing (but my gear wasn't
good enough.) Lately I have been reading this NG and have started to
question everything. Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

They give you between 20 and 70 dB of gain.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to. But
there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

That depends on your job. For the most part, I prefer a straight wire
with gain. But since you can't get that, and you always get some colorations,
you have to pick the colorations you want.

There are some jobs where you might want euphonic colorations, but I don't
see the preamp as being the best possible place to get that. Other folks
do.

The other problem is that because the preamp provides a load to the microphone,
different preamps can make mikes sound differently because they load it
differently. This is much more of an issue with ribbons and moving coil
dynamic mikes than condensers.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly. A few
years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

Get better monitors and spend some time listening. You might want to try
the Golden Ears program from Dave Moulton. If you don't have the monitor
chain or the hearing experience to tell the difference, you won't have
anything to go by other than the excuse of some random guy on the internet
like me. Spend time developing your listening skills and your monitor
system before you worry about anything else. Once you know what things
should sound like, then you can worry about getting them that way.

Your wisdom on this is greatly appreciated.

People worry too much. But rent a really top-notch neutral preamp like
a Great River or Millennia Media for a weekend just to see if you can
hear what it's _not_ doing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well, this made a lot of sense to me:

"Get a good sounding room and a good sounding mike, and put the mike
where it sounds good. Everything else is easy. The room and mike
part is hard." -Scott Dorsey

The room part is the hardest for most folks, but do-able with
some inspiration.

Chris Hornbeck

Well, this made a lot of sense to me:

"Get a good sounding room and a good sounding mike, and put the mike
where it sounds good. Everything else is easy. The room and mike
part is hard." -Scott Dorsey

The room part is the hardest for most folks, but do-able with
some inspiration.

Chris Hornbeck

What happened to that internet site with all the soundclips that
compared pres and mics? You could compare the Hardy, Great River,
API, etc.

Al

On 1 Oct 2004 23:04:59 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

gary wrote:
I've been a solo amateur home studio recording hobbyist for many years
now and I used to think I knew what I was doing (but my gear wasn't
good enough.) Lately I have been reading this NG and have started to
question everything. Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

They give you between 20 and 70 dB of gain.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to. But
there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

That depends on your job. For the most part, I prefer a straight wire
with gain. But since you can't get that, and you always get some colorations,
you have to pick the colorations you want.

There are some jobs where you might want euphonic colorations, but I don't
see the preamp as being the best possible place to get that. Other folks
do.

The other problem is that because the preamp provides a load to the microphone,
different preamps can make mikes sound differently because they load it
differently. This is much more of an issue with ribbons and moving coil
dynamic mikes than condensers.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly. A few
years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

Get better monitors and spend some time listening. You might want to try
the Golden Ears program from Dave Moulton. If you don't have the monitor
chain or the hearing experience to tell the difference, you won't have
anything to go by other than the excuse of some random guy on the internet
like me. Spend time developing your listening skills and your monitor
system before you worry about anything else. Once you know what things
should sound like, then you can worry about getting them that way.

Your wisdom on this is greatly appreciated.

People worry too much. But rent a really top-notch neutral preamp like
a Great River or Millennia Media for a weekend just to see if you can
hear what it's _not_ doing.
--scott

What happened to that internet site with all the soundclips that
compared pres and mics? You could compare the Hardy, Great River,
API, etc.

Al

On 1 Oct 2004 23:04:59 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

gary wrote:
I've been a solo amateur home studio recording hobbyist for many years
now and I used to think I knew what I was doing (but my gear wasn't
good enough.) Lately I have been reading this NG and have started to
question everything. Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

They give you between 20 and 70 dB of gain.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to. But
there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

That depends on your job. For the most part, I prefer a straight wire
with gain. But since you can't get that, and you always get some colorations,
you have to pick the colorations you want.

There are some jobs where you might want euphonic colorations, but I don't
see the preamp as being the best possible place to get that. Other folks
do.

The other problem is that because the preamp provides a load to the microphone,
different preamps can make mikes sound differently because they load it
differently. This is much more of an issue with ribbons and moving coil
dynamic mikes than condensers.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly. A few
years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

Get better monitors and spend some time listening. You might want to try
the Golden Ears program from Dave Moulton. If you don't have the monitor
chain or the hearing experience to tell the difference, you won't have
anything to go by other than the excuse of some random guy on the internet
like me. Spend time developing your listening skills and your monitor
system before you worry about anything else. Once you know what things
should sound like, then you can worry about getting them that way.

Your wisdom on this is greatly appreciated.

People worry too much. But rent a really top-notch neutral preamp like
a Great River or Millennia Media for a weekend just to see if you can
hear what it's _not_ doing.
--scott

One thing I have found is that the poorer preamps (perhaps like your
behringer) may not sound that bad on an individual track -- but once
you have recorded 16 or 24 tracks, you get a build-up of things you
don't want. This can also even be true of more expensive but very
"colored" preamps (if you use it on every track over 16 or more
tracks), so I think the place to start would be a good, neutral, clean
preamp.

Hank is right on the money (as usual) with his FMR RNP suggestion.
This is a great place to start and a preamp you will likely keep even
after you have more experience and add other preamps to your
collection.

One thing I have found is that the poorer preamps (perhaps like your
behringer) may not sound that bad on an individual track -- but once
you have recorded 16 or 24 tracks, you get a build-up of things you
don't want. This can also even be true of more expensive but very
"colored" preamps (if you use it on every track over 16 or more
tracks), so I think the place to start would be a good, neutral, clean
preamp.

Hank is right on the money (as usual) with his FMR RNP suggestion.
This is a great place to start and a preamp you will likely keep even
after you have more experience and add other preamps to your
collection.

"play on" wrote in message
...
What happened to that internet site with all the soundclips that
compared pres and mics? You could compare the Hardy, Great River,
API, etc.


http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm

"play on" wrote in message
...
What happened to that internet site with all the soundclips that
compared pres and mics? You could compare the Hardy, Great River,
API, etc.


http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm

In article writes:

Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to.

You got it. "Power" isn't really the right term to use here since
there's so little of it involved, but they do boost the relatively low
output voltage (on the order of milivolts) of a microphone up to what
we call "line level" (tenths of volts to a couple of volts) so that
the signal can be handled less delicately.

there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

Either or both. Having to make those decisions is a relatively new
thing. Used to be that the preamp was what it was, there weren't any
crappy ones, there were only a few microphones worth using, and while
nobody was ever truly happy with what they had (this is still the
case, and forever will be - it's a characteristic of people who love
audio and chose to work with it) they got their work done. In the past
20 years, recording has come into the world of the musician and
hobbyist, and hundreds and hundreds of products appeared where there
were only a handful previously.

Obviously there are some differences between them, so we started
putting them in categories so we could describe how we were making
choices. We had clean preamps and colored preamps, preamps that
sounded gritty in a complimentary way (and in an uncomplimentary way),
preamps which, when used with the right microphone, gave a sound
reminiscent of studios of the '50's (toob sound), preamps that have
controls to adjust the loading on the microphone element, and so on.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly.

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it. And
the way to use it sensibly is to remember what it sounds like, so when
you hear somthing that you think you'd like to change, you recall "Oh,
I have a preamp that will give me that sound."

years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

That's a good one to save for when you're recording something and you
think that the vocal would punch through better if it was a little
distorted. Then you plug it in and turn it up.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Last night I spent a good deal of time going
through a very dramatic thread on mic preamps and started to realize I
don't really know what they do.

I think this: They take a weak electronic signal and power it up so
that it is useful to the gear you want to record the signal to.

You got it. "Power" isn't really the right term to use here since
there's so little of it involved, but they do boost the relatively low
output voltage (on the order of milivolts) of a microphone up to what
we call "line level" (tenths of volts to a couple of volts) so that
the signal can be handled less delicately.

there are these concepts of coloring, tube warmth, noise floor,
linearity, minimalism ("gain down a wire,")etc. that make for a lot of
argument. So what does one want a mic pre to do? Be a neutral signal
gain or expand characteristics of your source sound?

Either or both. Having to make those decisions is a relatively new
thing. Used to be that the preamp was what it was, there weren't any
crappy ones, there were only a few microphones worth using, and while
nobody was ever truly happy with what they had (this is still the
case, and forever will be - it's a characteristic of people who love
audio and chose to work with it) they got their work done. In the past
20 years, recording has come into the world of the musician and
hobbyist, and hundreds and hundreds of products appeared where there
were only a handful previously.

Obviously there are some differences between them, so we started
putting them in categories so we could describe how we were making
choices. We had clean preamps and colored preamps, preamps that
sounded gritty in a complimentary way (and in an uncomplimentary way),
preamps which, when used with the right microphone, gave a sound
reminiscent of studios of the '50's (toob sound), preamps that have
controls to adjust the loading on the microphone element, and so on.

I ask sincerely because I am starting to realize that going around and
around in this "if only I had better gear" mentality is not getting me
anywhere I could stand to make some big improvements if I actually
knew what my frigging gear does and how to use it sensibly.

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it. And
the way to use it sensibly is to remember what it sounds like, so when
you hear somthing that you think you'd like to change, you recall "Oh,
I have a preamp that will give me that sound."

years ago I got this little Belari "tube" mic pre and never used it
because I couldn't hear a significant difference between it and my
Behringer mixer pres, it only gave me the added bonus of having
distorted vocals when I turned it up.

That's a good one to save for when you're recording something and you
think that the vocal would punch through better if it was a little
distorted. Then you plug it in and turn it up.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1096717428k@trad...


The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice usually
doesn't know what "sounds good" (and is why we get so many "which is the
best" type threads). Louder/brighter usually wins out in their ears. And
they probably don't grasp the cascading effect of multitrack
recording...meaning that one piece of gear you think sounds "exciting" by
itself is going to sound like crap if you use it on every thing. So
"learning what sounds good" is an important (and ever evolving) part of it.
You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be afraid
to fail.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1096717428k@trad...


The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice usually
doesn't know what "sounds good" (and is why we get so many "which is the
best" type threads). Louder/brighter usually wins out in their ears. And
they probably don't grasp the cascading effect of multitrack
recording...meaning that one piece of gear you think sounds "exciting" by
itself is going to sound like crap if you use it on every thing. So
"learning what sounds good" is an important (and ever evolving) part of it.
You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be afraid
to fail.

In article aYy7d.307433$Fg5.64947@attbi_s53 writes:

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice usually
doesn't know what "sounds good"

I understand this completely. People who are at that level shouldn't
worry about things like small differences (which some people consider
to be major differences) between preamps or sound cards. Better that
they should save their money and concentrate on making the best of
whatever they can afford. When they recognize that a particular piece
in their recording system is deficient (as opposed to being told "your
converters are crap") that's when they know what sounds good and what
doesn't.

You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be afraid
to fail.

If you're happy with your recordings, you're not failing, you're
learning.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article aYy7d.307433$Fg5.64947@attbi_s53 writes:

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice usually
doesn't know what "sounds good"

I understand this completely. People who are at that level shouldn't
worry about things like small differences (which some people consider
to be major differences) between preamps or sound cards. Better that
they should save their money and concentrate on making the best of
whatever they can afford. When they recognize that a particular piece
in their recording system is deficient (as opposed to being told "your
converters are crap") that's when they know what sounds good and what
doesn't.

You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be afraid
to fail.

If you're happy with your recordings, you're not failing, you're
learning.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1096736078k@trad...

In article aYy7d.307433$Fg5.64947@attbi_s53 writes:

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice
usually
doesn't know what "sounds good"

I understand this completely. People who are at that level shouldn't
worry about things like small differences (which some people consider
to be major differences) between preamps or sound cards. Better that
they should save their money and concentrate on making the best of
whatever they can afford. When they recognize that a particular piece
in their recording system is deficient (as opposed to being told "your
converters are crap") that's when they know what sounds good and what
doesn't.


In actuality sub-par gear can teach you as much if not more than gear that
sounds great no matter how you treat it. You certainly have to learn how to
maximize what you've got in those cases.

You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be
afraid
to fail.

If you're happy with your recordings, you're not failing, you're
learning.


Agreed.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1096736078k@trad...

In article aYy7d.307433$Fg5.64947@attbi_s53 writes:

The way to learn what your frigging gear does is to listen to it.

I've said this before but I think part of the problem is the novice
usually
doesn't know what "sounds good"

I understand this completely. People who are at that level shouldn't
worry about things like small differences (which some people consider
to be major differences) between preamps or sound cards. Better that
they should save their money and concentrate on making the best of
whatever they can afford. When they recognize that a particular piece
in their recording system is deficient (as opposed to being told "your
converters are crap") that's when they know what sounds good and what
doesn't.


In actuality sub-par gear can teach you as much if not more than gear that
sounds great no matter how you treat it. You certainly have to learn how to
maximize what you've got in those cases.

You usually only realize what doesn't work after the fact so don't be
afraid
to fail.

If you're happy with your recordings, you're not failing, you're
learning.


Agreed.

(Jordan Leff) writes:

One thing I have found is that the poorer preamps (perhaps like your
behringer) may not sound that bad on an individual track -- but once
you have recorded 16 or 24 tracks, you get a build-up of things you
don't want. This can also even be true of more expensive but very
"colored" preamps (if you use it on every track over 16 or more
tracks), so I think the place to start would be a good, neutral, clean
preamp.

This is it in a nutshell. When I mix tracks recorded on the cheap pres,
the sum has a "clarity" to it, and I RARELY need to add EQ. The tracks from
the cheap pres seem to be "veiled" when summed, and no amount of EQ seems
to help. But if I solo them, they sound OK.

(Jordan Leff) writes:

One thing I have found is that the poorer preamps (perhaps like your
behringer) may not sound that bad on an individual track -- but once
you have recorded 16 or 24 tracks, you get a build-up of things you
don't want. This can also even be true of more expensive but very
"colored" preamps (if you use it on every track over 16 or more
tracks), so I think the place to start would be a good, neutral, clean
preamp.

This is it in a nutshell. When I mix tracks recorded on the cheap pres,
the sum has a "clarity" to it, and I RARELY need to add EQ. The tracks from
the cheap pres seem to be "veiled" when summed, and no amount of EQ seems
to help. But if I solo them, they sound OK.