Hi

OK, I already posted this to the live sound group (and Ooops
wrong button) also accidentally posted this to the audio.tech group.
Anyway the more the merrier, So I figure maybe the studio/recording
folks might have different insights or experience.

I run sound for a mostly acoustic quasi-open mic situation and thus
do on the fly, limited sound check, setups. This weekend a group
showed up with a musical saw player in place of their more typical
fiddler.
[ For what it's worth, the rest of that group consisted of a banjo,
mountain dulcimer, guitar, and dog house bass. ]

First time I've ever mic'd a saw! I still don't have a clue about the
radiation pattern of one of these things.

For what it's worth:
I ended up with the mic in front at about handle level pointing up and
slightly in. The mic I had on stage at the time was a beta 57.
Seems I had to pull everything else on stage down to get the saw into
the mix, and even then the level was a little low.

Anyone have any tips on how to mic these things? I'd like to be ready
next time...

Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural Society
www.AlbertHall.org
--

I've only recorded them in the studio, in an iso booth. I used a U87, and IIRC
it was more or less in front of the player, about 2 feet away and slightly
above. The tone was great, and acceptably even (although I might have used a
compressor). I don't recall the level being particularly soft, so I'm a bit
surprised you had as much difficulty getting it to cut over those other
(relatively tame) instruments.

If you can't get conventional mics to work maybe a contact mic or pickup would
be worth a try.


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Hi

Anyone have any tips on how to mic these things? I'd like to be ready
next time...

I recorded a saw once for a demo (A trio consisting of accordeon, saw and
cornet). I used a AKG C535EB, but had to roll of some of the treble to get
rid of the bow-noise wich can be very ugly.
My main problem was, that the dynamic range of that thing was very large.
One note could be -20 dB - the next could be above 0. I ended up compressing
it around 12 dB on peaks just to tame it a bit.

As with many acoustic instruments I think the radiation pattern will be
different from frequency range to frequency range. I placed the mic above
the players shoulder to record "what he was hearing himself". If I'm not
mistaken he played a "Sandvik Stadivarius".

/Preben Friis

in article , Ron Capik at
wrote on 6/17/04 11:32 AM:

Hi

OK, I already posted this to the live sound group (and Ooops
wrong button) also accidentally posted this to the audio.tech group.
Anyway the more the merrier, So I figure maybe the studio/recording
folks might have different insights or experience.

I run sound for a mostly acoustic quasi-open mic situation and thus
do on the fly, limited sound check, setups. This weekend a group
showed up with a musical saw player in place of their more typical
fiddler.
[ For what it's worth, the rest of that group consisted of a banjo,
mountain dulcimer, guitar, and dog house bass. ]

First time I've ever mic'd a saw! I still don't have a clue about the
radiation pattern of one of these things.

For what it's worth:
I ended up with the mic in front at about handle level pointing up and
slightly in. The mic I had on stage at the time was a beta 57.
Seems I had to pull everything else on stage down to get the saw into
the mix, and even then the level was a little low.

Anyone have any tips on how to mic these things? I'd like to be ready
next time...

Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural Society
www.AlbertHall.org
--

well, saw and stacked-bowl glass armonica and bagpipes...
3 truely wonderful oddballs where radiation patterns are everything.

the saw is a ribbon and so works perpindicular to the plane of the blade
(NOT on edge!). Whether it's on the concave side or convex side, and at what
distance is up for grabs. I go to the convex side first and yeah, you need
some distance, and level isn't the greatest, but it's not horrible. What
IS, is that the closer you get, the more you're stuck with the
moving-with-pitch hotspots, hence a little distance (as always) works
wonders.

A contact pickup on the handle is something I haven't had a chance to try
yet. Maybe one of the nice standup-bass thin-ribbon slide-under-the-bridge
pickups installed where the handle joins the blade...

(where'd I put that FRAP...)

though what sort of character that's going to impose is unpredictable...
nothing sounds as good as air.
--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

As far as position goes, usually the saw player will have a preference. I've
used a Neumann KM-84 and an E-V RE-16; both worked, but the RE-16 picked up
less of that very high frequency bow noise. It's also hypercardioid, which
helped cut bleed.

Peace,
Paul

In article ,
Paul Stamler wrote:
As far as position goes, usually the saw player will have a preference. I've
used a Neumann KM-84 and an E-V RE-16; both worked, but the RE-16 picked up
less of that very high frequency bow noise. It's also hypercardioid, which
helped cut bleed.

I have mostly used N/D 408s, since that's usually what I have a lot of
on stage at festivals.

BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Very carefully?


Don

Don Cooper wrote:

Very carefully?

Don

Well, the acoustic saw wasn't bad but I didn't want to get my mic
too close to his big ol' Black and Decker electric... ;-)
[ Think I'll mic that one at the amp. ]

Ron Capik cynic in training
--

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:32:31 GMT, Ron Capik
wrote:

Hi

OK, I already posted this to the live sound group (and Ooops
wrong button)

Ouch, I only lurk on AAPLS, and not very often.

also accidentally posted this to the audio.tech group.
Anyway the more the merrier, So I figure maybe the studio/recording
folks might have different insights or experience.

I run sound for a mostly acoustic quasi-open mic situation and thus
do on the fly, limited sound check, setups. This weekend a group
showed up with a musical saw player in place of their more typical
fiddler.
[ For what it's worth, the rest of that group consisted of a banjo,
mountain dulcimer, guitar, and dog house bass. ]

A mountain dulcimer is the strummed one (usually three courses, two
courses with one string and one course with two string), as opposed to
the hammered one with dozens of strings, is that correct? I'm just
making sure of this in my mind. A strummed one generally doesn't go as
loud as a hammered one.

First time I've ever mic'd a saw! I still don't have a clue about the
radiation pattern of one of these things.

For what it's worth:
I ended up with the mic in front at about handle level pointing up and
slightly in. The mic I had on stage at the time was a beta 57.
Seems I had to pull everything else on stage down to get the saw into
the mix, and even then the level was a little low.

(Asked seriously, as well as in the spirit of Monty Python's Holy
Grail) Was this a hammered saw or a bowed saw?
I would think it would be a hammered saw, as I suspect a bowed saw
is a lot louder due to the bow constantly putting energy in, and
easier to bring out relative to the other instruments.

Anyone have any tips on how to mic these things? I'd like to be ready
next time...

Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural Society
www.AlbertHall.org

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

In article writes:

BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?

Would that make it an electric saw?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Ben Bradley wrote:

...snip..

(Asked seriously, as well as in the spirit of Monty Python's Holy
Grail) Was this a hammered saw or a bowed saw?
I would think it would be a hammered saw, as I suspect a bowed saw
is a lot louder due to the bow constantly putting energy in, and
easier to bring out relative to the other instruments.


I've worked with the dulcimer (hog fiddle) before, so that wasn't a
problem.

'twas a bowed saw and it seemed loud enough when I ventured on stage
during ( I try not to ever need to do that) the set to try and reposition
the
mic. With no assistant all I could do is tweak, then run back to the sound
board and see if it helped. Seems the tweak didn't help much and I didn't
want to disrupt them on stage again, so I worked with what I had.

If there's a next time I'll likely visit them in the warm up room and pick
up
any clues I can...

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:


BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?


Would that make it an electric saw?

Get two of them and play chords where you only include the root
and the fifth. Now you are playing "power saw".

- Logan

"Ben Bradley" wrote in message
...

[ For what it's worth, the rest of that group consisted of a banjo,
mountain dulcimer, guitar, and dog house bass. ]

A mountain dulcimer is the strummed one (usually three courses, two
courses with one string and one course with two string), as opposed to
the hammered one with dozens of strings, is that correct? I'm just
making sure of this in my mind. A strummed one generally doesn't go as
loud as a hammered one.

Correct.

Peace,
Paul

in article , Logan Shaw at
wrote on 6/17/04 9:06 PM:

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:


BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?


Would that make it an electric saw?

Get two of them and play chords where you only include the root
and the fifth. Now you are playing "power saw".

music with teeth in it...
music on the cutting edge.

somewhere in this is a BRILLIANT ToolTime/Home Improvement sketch...
More Power!! UnghUnghUnghUGH!



--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

Logan Shaw wrote in message ...
Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:


BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?


Would that make it an electric saw?

Get two of them and play chords where you only include the root
and the fifth. Now you are playing "power saw".

- Logan

Get a bunch playing in harmony = "band saw".
Worried about playing? "fret saw"
How about sampling and looping the sample? "circular saw"
Just about managing to play over the changes? "coping saw"
Play 'til your fingers bleed? "rockabilly".

B-) and sorry.

Ian

Ian wrote:

....snip..

Get a bunch playing in harmony = "band saw".
Worried about playing? "fret saw"
How about sampling and looping the sample? "circular saw"
Just about managing to play over the changes? "coping saw"
Play 'til your fingers bleed? "rockabilly".

B-) and sorry.

Ian

Playing someone elses music = " rip saw "
Playing it poorly = " hack saw "

OK, maybe I'm sorry for starting this... :-)

Later...

Ron Capik
--

BUT.... how about a pickup? Anyone tried it?


Would that make it an electric saw?

Get two of them and play chords where you only include the root
and the fifth. Now you are playing "power saw".


music with teeth in it...
music on the cutting edge.

somewhere in this is a BRILLIANT ToolTime/Home Improvement sketch...
More Power!! UnghUnghUnghUGH!




I knew a guy in Brooklyn who had a performance art
ensemble he called a "sawchestra". Various bowed saws,
circular saw blades hanging on strings for percussion,
etc. Very cool.

--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

Peeping Toms play keyhole saws. Taxi drivers play hack saws. Terry Riley
plays a C saw.

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Peace,
Paul

Paul Stamler wrote:
And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Ugh! Gotta give you credit for it though.

More to the point for this thread, though, what kind of a tone do
you get if you place the mic too close to the teeth when trying
to mic a saw? A sawtooth wave, of course.

- Logan

Check out this link:
http://www.musicblade.com/Musicwand.htm
They sell "music wand" microphones designed specifically for musical
saws. A friend of mine is a saw player and she uses this mic and
loves it. I did some work on it and got to check it out. I highly
recommend it and it's under $100 too.

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

Chris Hornbeck

Chris Hornbeck wrote in
news
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

I have a recording of Addinsell's war saw concerto.

Hi,

Usually one mikes a saw from behind the player because:
1) so that the sawyer won't hit the mike with the bow
2) to minimize augmenting the bow scratch

It is customary to direct the mike at the lower register of the saw.

Bowed saws are loud, so miking might not be necessary.

Take a listen to a great sawyer at www.cdBaby.com/paruz

Hope this helps.

Ben Bradley wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:32:31 GMT, Ron Capik
wrote:


First time I've ever mic'd a saw! I still don't have a clue about the
radiation pattern of one of these things.

For what it's worth:
I ended up with the mic in front at about handle level pointing up and
slightly in. The mic I had on stage at the time was a beta 57.
Seems I had to pull everything else on stage down to get the saw into
the mix, and even then the level was a little low.

(Asked seriously, as well as in the spirit of Monty Python's Holy
Grail) Was this a hammered saw or a bowed saw?
I would think it would be a hammered saw, as I suspect a bowed saw
is a lot louder due to the bow constantly putting energy in, and
easier to bring out relative to the other instruments.

Anyone have any tips on how to mic these things? I'd like to be ready
next time...

Ron Capik
NJ Pinelands Cultural Society
www.AlbertHall.org

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:32:33 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

I have a recording of Addinsell's war saw concerto.

Make it two ropes.

Chris Hornbeck

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Paul Stamler wrote:
And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Ugh! Gotta give you credit for it though.

Naw...I lifted it from Art Thieme.

Peace,
Paul

Chris Hornbeck wrote in
:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:32:33 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

I have a recording of Addinsell's war saw concerto.

Make it two ropes.

Chris Hornbeck


Saw that coming...

In article writes:

Bowed saws are loud, so miking might not be necessary.

"Can I have more saw in the monitor?"

- an un-named saw player


By the way, there's (or at least there used to be) a saw festival in
California where a major feature is saw jokes.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Carey Carlan wrote in message .204...
Chris Hornbeck wrote in
:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:32:33 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

I have a recording of Addinsell's war saw concerto.

Make it two ropes.

Chris Hornbeck


Saw that coming...

Now CUT THAT OUT! B-)

Remember, to make sure you don't overload your mic you need a pad saw.


Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
om...
Carey Carlan wrote in message
.204...
Chris Hornbeck wrote in
:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:32:33 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:46 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And in Poland, of course, they play war saws.

Somebody, get a rope.

I have a recording of Addinsell's war saw concerto.

Make it two ropes.

Chris Hornbeck


Saw that coming...

Now CUT THAT OUT! B-)

Remember, to make sure you don't overload your mic you need a pad saw.

And to play in an ensemble you need a band saw.

Peace,
Paul

Paul Stamler wrote:

And to play in an ensemble you need a band saw.

A circular saw for loops; a jigsaw for Irish dances; a keyhole saw for
modulations; a seesaw for MTV.

--
ha

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:54:02 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Paul Stamler wrote:

And to play in an ensemble you need a band saw.

A circular saw for loops; a jigsaw for Irish dances; a keyhole saw for
modulations; a seesaw for MTV.

If you're worried I have a fretsaw.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:50:54 -0400, Ben Bradley
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:54:02 GMT, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Paul Stamler wrote:

And to play in an ensemble you need a band saw.

A circular saw for loops; a jigsaw for Irish dances; a keyhole saw for
modulations; a seesaw for MTV.

If you're worried I have a fretsaw.

I just remembered, I have a photograph:

http://mindspring.com/~benbradley/fretslots.html

To learn about the musical saw, check it out on TV this Saturday (July
10th)on the History Channel. They are airing a new show tiltled
'Toolbox'. Each episode is about a different tool. The first episode
is about the handsaw, and includes an interview/demonstration with
musical saw master Natalia 'SawLady' Paruz.
Air time for this show is:
6pm ET
5pm Central
4pm Mountain
6pm Pacific

I found this info on www.sawlady.com

Misha

Believe it or not I actually have a session today where a guy is going to
overdub a saw he plays with a bow.
I'm not sure what mic I'm going to use!

(BLCKOUT420) wrote in message ...
Believe it or not I actually have a session today where a guy is going to
overdub a saw he plays with a bow.
I'm not sure what mic I'm going to use!


Believe it or not, I've done this a few times. I do live sound for
the High Zero experimental music conference in Baltimore Maryland.
I've miked balloons.

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp. I used a shure SM81 about 3ft up and 2ft
back pointed straight at the middle of the saw. the players I've
miked usually move quite a bit and bow on different places on the saw,
so I needed to pull back. You may be able to get closer. Hope this
helps!

Carlos

(BLCKOUT420) wrote in message ...
Believe it or not I actually have a session today where a guy is going to
overdub a saw he plays with a bow.
I'm not sure what mic I'm going to use!


Believe it or not, I've done this a few times. I do live sound for
the High Zero experimental music conference in Baltimore Maryland.
I've miked balloons.

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp. I used a shure SM81 about 3ft up and 2ft
back pointed straight at the middle of the saw. the players I've
miked usually move quite a bit and bow on different places on the saw,
so I needed to pull back. You may be able to get closer. Hope this
helps!

Carlos

Infidell wrote:

...snip..

Believe it or not, I've done this a few times. I do live sound for
the High Zero experimental music conference in Baltimore Maryland.
I've miked balloons.

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp. I used a shure SM81 about 3ft up and 2ft
back pointed straight at the middle of the saw. the players I've
miked usually move quite a bit and bow on different places on the saw,
so I needed to pull back. You may be able to get closer. Hope this
helps!

Carlos

Thanks all! Hopefully someday the saw guy will return and I'll
get to try out these tips.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

Infidell wrote:

...snip..

Believe it or not, I've done this a few times. I do live sound for
the High Zero experimental music conference in Baltimore Maryland.
I've miked balloons.

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp. I used a shure SM81 about 3ft up and 2ft
back pointed straight at the middle of the saw. the players I've
miked usually move quite a bit and bow on different places on the saw,
so I needed to pull back. You may be able to get closer. Hope this
helps!

Carlos

Thanks all! Hopefully someday the saw guy will return and I'll
get to try out these tips.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

In article writes:

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp.

Maybe in a rock situation, but the saw player in the Sunshine Skiffle
Band (cornet, clarinet, jug, guitar, banjo, washboard, harmonica, saw)
seems to come through just fine even without a mic. It's just one of
those sounds. Probalby wouldn't in a 20,000 seat arena, but then
nobody goes to shows like that to hear a saw player.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Musical saw...Condenser is best, preferrably with a tight cardioid
pattern. Miking a saw is not possible when other instruments/amps are
in the same room, they are inherently quiet instruments when compared
to a drum kit or guitar amp.

Maybe in a rock situation, but the saw player in the Sunshine Skiffle
Band (cornet, clarinet, jug, guitar, banjo, washboard, harmonica, saw)
seems to come through just fine even without a mic. It's just one of
those sounds. Probalby wouldn't in a 20,000 seat arena, but then
nobody goes to shows like that to hear a saw player.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo