Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

I'd love to see you quote either one of them as sayign they are "the exact same
thing". Both clearly stated that there is alot more to an amp than just watts.
Reliability, customer service, toughness,load handling, looks, crossovers
etc.... all go into ones decision to purchase an amp. (At least they should,
to people who are concerned with more than just the name and power ratings).

You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Both have asked you to provide a single shred of evidence to back up your
claim, and yet you fail to do so.

So, until you can somehow prove that a Zapco amp is "better" than a Jensen, I
think you should kindly shut the hell up.

Nick

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same
thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

I'd love to see you quote either one of them as sayign they are "the exact
same
thing". Both clearly stated that there is alot more to an amp than just
watts.
Reliability, customer service, toughness,load handling, looks, crossovers
etc.... all go into ones decision to purchase an amp. (At least they
should,
to people who are concerned with more than just the name and power
ratings).

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.



You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that
Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They
cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.





Both have asked you to provide a single shred of evidence to back up your
claim, and yet you fail to do so.

What is there to prove? IT'S A WELL KNOWN FACT.

I'll bet an ass like yourself would argue that the sky is not blue.
"Well I need proof"

"LOOK AT THE ****ING THING. IT'S ****ING BLUE" *SMACK*

I guess some people need to be hit over the head a few times before they can
learn anything. Sheesh.





So, until you can somehow prove that a Zapco amp is "better" than a
Jensen, I
think you should kindly shut the hell up.

I think you can kindly lick my nuts. You are obviously a ****ing moron who
knows nothing about car audio or general electronics.


Here's your sign.....

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

I bet you have a giant sticker on the front of your car advertising the super
cool brand of stereo equipment you use.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Um... There is PLENTY of evidence that the world is round.

Is there evidence to back up your claim though? Nope, none.

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.

So you could look at all that stuff on the inside of the amp, and say for
certain that one would sound better than the other?

What is there to prove? IT'S A WELL KNOWN FACT.


Its a known fact? Where did you pull that little tid bit from?

I'll bet an ass like yourself would argue that the sky is not blue.
"Well I need proof"

Well if you are going to argue something like this, its best to have something
to back up your claim other than "This one costs more, so its better".

I think you can kindly lick my nuts. You are obviously a ****ing moron who
knows nothing about car audio or general electronics.

Uh huh....

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000
for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.




I bet you have a giant sticker on the front of your car advertising the
super
cool brand of stereo equipment you use.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.





Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Um... There is PLENTY of evidence that the world is round.

Name one. A globe? Not good enough. That's just a model.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****. I'm not
the one that has to listen to your pile of crap $300 stereo system. I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck. Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.

Uh huh... cause that is EXACTLY what I said. Your reading comprehension
teachers must be so proud.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.

I find it hard to believe that 12 years ago you were doing anything but getting
ready for kindergarden.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.

I haven't? I haven't seen live pictures from space shuttles? Riiightt.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****.

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night kiddo. I'm not arguing either way
really, I'm just pointing out that your argument is based on absolutely NOTHING
concrete. No evidence whatsoever, and that you took Marks posts and twisted
them into anything but the point he was making.

..

I'm not
the one that has to listen to your pile of crap $300 stereo system.

You put entirely too much emphasis on price tags.

The local shop in our tiny little town makes a killing off children like you
who only want brand names that will impress their friends.

To each their own I guess.

I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck.

This is an insult? Is this the car audio equivalent of your mama jokes?

Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

You are REALLY reaching to stand your ground here bub. Someone stating that
6x9's and subs sound exactly the same is just a tad difference than someone
saying two comparable amps sound the same.

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.


Thats not what he said. Read it again. Come on everybody read it so you can see
just how stupid Pug is.
He said that if it is all the same then why would you pay 1000 dollars when you
could get it for 50. The key word is "IF". It is important to the sentence.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.

Proof?

Name one. A globe? Not good enough. That's just a model.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.


What an assinine example. It is a scientifically accepted fact that the world
is round.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****.

Of course, because logic and facts have no place to low life audio pukes like
you.
How do you know it sounds better? Publish me some data where you ran both amps
within thier linear range and show me and Mark up. But alas your too much of an
idiot to know how to even properly set it up.

I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck. Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

Thats not the argument. Dumbass.

Les

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Extra crap???? So you consider reliability, resale value, customer service,
build quality, actual watts, and features are extra crap? Clarify that for us
all will you?

Ok here it is Pug, this is what I am saying and you can quote me on this.

Ahem "If you operate the amp (virtually any amp) with its operating range, ie
no clipping, then the differences that can be measured will likely be below the
threshold of human hearing"
In other words, whatever differences there may be you wont hear them.

If you need more clarification on that just let me know.

Les

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000
for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, I'd consider that "extra crap" pretty important, wouldn't you?

You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that
Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They
cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Most people can provide evidence that it's round. Sheesh, simple pictures
from outer space even. People didn't just start believing that it was round
because one person said it was. That's your problem. Someone told you why
one amp is better than the other and you believed it without any evidence.
Don't be embarassed. It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.

All those things factor into why I feel the Zapco amp is better than some
amps. But none of them play into why one would sound better than the other.
The filter caps, power supply, output devices, and rail designs(?) are all
sufficient in a Jensen amp. Maybe that's why carsound measured a lower THD
in that Jensen amp than in that Zapco. Doesn't mean that I'd prefer the
Jensen though. It just means that the difference in distortion content is
inaudible to human beings (IMD follows the same trend by the way).

Most people can provide evidence that it's round. Sheesh, simple pictures
from outer space even. People didn't just start believing that it was round
because one person said it was. That's your problem. Someone told you why
one amp is better than the other and you believed it without any evidence.
Don't be embarassed. It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

Its not that hard to see for yourself that the earth is round. All you have to
do is go swimming in a large lake and look at the shore from various distances
and see what happens........

It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

I'll get him going. I've made this mistake too! Mark, you remember, you helped
me out! There's a lot more to amps than just pricing.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots. WTF is a Kenford? Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand? Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

"Jimmy Deam" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same
thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice
from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots.

I'm beginning to see that. I can't believe these guys hand out advice to
people.



WTF is a Kenford?

According to Zarella, it's the same as a JL Audio.



Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand?

Yep. Zarella probably thinks it's an Xtant but they don't sell Xtant at
Kmart so they put Sparkomatic on it.

Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

Well according to Zarella they are among the best sounding amps in the
world. I disagree. I've installed too many of them over the years and I know
better.

WTF is a Kenford?

According to Zarella, it's the same as a JL Audio.

Please provide a quote, liar.

LOL

In article , Jimmy Deam
wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots. WTF is a Kenford? Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand? Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

LOL


Yes it is funny, that you think that because a know name newbie agrees with you
your right. You are a fool.

Les

Lester what exactly is a "know name newbie" Feel free to explain in
scientific or Layman's terms. LOL

In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
LOL


Yes it is funny, that you think that because a know name newbie agrees with you
your right. You are a fool.

Les

Lester what exactly is a "know name newbie" Feel free to explain in
scientific or Layman's terms. LOL


Spelling mistake. My bad. But it is sad when that is the best you have. Here is
the bottom line Howdy Doody, What has been said by myself can be proven.
Through methods of controlled tested. What you and Pug said cannot, you can
offer zero evidence and both you and Pug resort to strawman arguments and
outright lies. You guys are pitiful. When you actually have a reasonable
argument then we will discuss.

Les

Ok, I have been reading on this forum and two other audio ones for a
while and I cannot keep quite about this anymore. Amps are NOT created
equal!!! You CAN hear the difference in an el-cheapo Jenson, and a SS
Reference, or McIntosh, etc... I had to use a Jenson once, for a short
time while one of my Class A's were off getting a diode replaced. That
Jenson sounded like ASS!!! It hummed, popped, hissed, you name it. It
was a POS AMP!! The day my SS came home was like the second coming of
Christ!! Cheap amps sound like ****. There is a reason why true
Audiophiles give amps a SQ rating. It's because they can HEAR the damn
difference!! Every one of you that claim "A watt is a watt. You cannot
here the difference between a cheap and and a quality one." are as
stupid as the idiots that use the CDROM tray as a damn cupholder!!

/rant

Mike


--
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Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Where did either one of us say that????
I have not even compared all of those, your pulling stuff out of your ass
again.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

What is the general thought of Pug and Captain newsgroup??
They are idiots who have proven it TIME AND TIME AGAIN. and yet they keep doing
it. Show me some proof Puggy. BTW very conveinent how you ignored the links to
the Jensen and the Xtant. Could that be because they performed the same? Huh.

Les

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing. Thats why I
(absolutely) HAD to do my own aperiodic sub install. Ive heard sooo
many pros / cons and oppinions that I wanted to give it a shot. I am
happy I did, now I know first hand.

I like the sound of my Hifonics VIII amps for sound stage and Crunch
amps for sub-bass...
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...8_107_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_26_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_95_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_63_full.jpg

To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better.. Who knows. Who
cares when I can get these used on ebay for $80. These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.

In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too... although I'd get whoop'd in dbs
competing against 1 ohm HCCAs and Autoteks. My friends were shocked
Pyramid Korean crap could sound so good and get decently loud at the
same time.

Oppinions will vary, so be it.

Garrett


Pug Fugley wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.

But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.

To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better..

That could be true. Some amps will have a built in compression circuit(or
something similar) to ease the audibility of clipping. The Crown MacroTechs and
the Meyer amps both have a feature similar to this. Both to protect drivers and
limit noise. But the discussion here is driving an amp withing its limits, no
clipping.

These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.

Had a crunch amp for about 6 years now and its still going. I have never had
trouble out of those. IMO good bang for the buck.

In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too...

Right. But by Pugs logic they should have sounded like **** cause they said
pyramid. But they didnt.

Oppinions will vary, so be it.


If we were only discussing opinions it would be easy. But its a matter of fact
vs fiction.I can provide proof (and have), Pug cannot.

Les

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.

But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific
fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping
factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.

It's funny how similarly humans are built like that. But then again, those
of us in the psychophysics biz know that. Unfortunately, there are lots of
people who think they're experts because they crawl underneath cars for a
living.

I agree with you, the difference between .05 THD and .1 are NOT
audible... same goes for damping factor.

I agree with Mark / Soundfreak. CLEAN wattage sounds the same
regardless of amp brand.

Garrett



Soundfreak03 wrote:

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.



But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.



To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better..



That could be true. Some amps will have a built in compression circuit(or
something similar) to ease the audibility of clipping. The Crown MacroTechs and
the Meyer amps both have a feature similar to this. Both to protect drivers and
limit noise. But the discussion here is driving an amp withing its limits, no
clipping.



These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.



Had a crunch amp for about 6 years now and its still going. I have never had
trouble out of those. IMO good bang for the buck.



In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too...



Right. But by Pugs logic they should have sounded like **** cause they said
pyramid. But they didnt.



Oppinions will vary, so be it.




If we were only discussing opinions it would be easy. But its a matter of fact
vs fiction.I can provide proof (and have), Pug cannot.

Les