"Sylvan Morein, When I Croak Bobby Gets it All!"
wrote in
ws.com:

On 15/8/03 16:44, in article
, "John Richards"
wrote:

When will you people understand? Only DEALERS are allowed to cite
wholesale prices to justify low trade-in allowances.

Scammers like Drescherdumpster.com aren't "dealers", therefore they
don't qualify for selling at retail prices. Nor do individuals.
Consumers should never pay "dealer markups" when they get no value in
return!



Brian,

Your envy is boundless.

Why don't you go after the people on ebay selling dryer lint and burnt out
light bulbs.

r


--
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."

Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ), "Technology and the Future"

"John Richards" wrote in message
.. .

"Sylvan Morein, When I Croak Bobby Gets it All!"
wrote in message
ws.com...
On 15/8/03 16:44, in article
,
"John Richards" wrote:

When will you people understand? Only DEALERS are allowed to cite
wholesale
prices to justify low trade-in allowances.

Scammers like Drescherdumpster.com aren't "dealers", therefore they
don't
qualify for selling at retail prices. Nor do individuals. Consumers
should
never pay "dealer markups" when they get no value in return!

No, Brian, I disagree with you about Ken - he IS a dealer - he buys (?)
and
sells to make a profit. Whether he gives "value in return" MAY be at
issue,
but no more so than with any other dealer. Remember, we're not talking
"authorized dealer" since we are referring to USED merchandise which is
seldom warranteed through the manufacturer and when it is, the
manufacturer's warrantee has nothing to do with the seller of the used
merchandise.

I do agree, however, that consumers in "private" transactions shouldn't
have
to pay "dealer markups". However, the price paid is ultimately the
responsibility of the consumer. If he wants an item badly enough and can
only find it at "retail" prices, whether through a dealer or not, his only
choice is to do without the item or pay the higher price - unless, of
course, you would be so kind as to reveal your sources for used audio gear
at "wholesale prices".

John

It's been pointed out to Brian many times that the issue is not so much what
he does as how he does it.
If he were to quote all the prices of the Bluebook, rather than the ones he
mistakenly thinks are relevant, he would be performing a service, EVEN
THOUGH it is frequently not the case that the Bluebook is inaccurate or
inapplicable.

The slandering of sellers with Brian's peculiar insulting turns of phrase is
merely an emotional outlet for Brian. As he is himself a notorious scammer,
it is strange mental pathology that forces his mind to indict others for
what he himself is guilty of.

Brian's rigidity is striking. It's as if Brian's mind wears a straight
jacket, with blinkers to boot. He is like a ghost that walks the same
stairway each night, and says the same words.

This is a shame, because adaptation is the great characteristic of sentient
intelligence. As I look back at Brian's posts of ten years ago, they were
commentaries on a wide variety of subjects. His posts were arrogant, but
there was a mind at work.

Brian seems fated to walk the same path until he dies.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"John Richards" wrote in message
.. .

"Sylvan Morein, When I Croak Bobby Gets it All!"
wrote in message
ws.com...
On 15/8/03 16:44, in article
,
"John Richards" wrote:

When will you people understand? Only DEALERS are allowed to cite
wholesale
prices to justify low trade-in allowances.

Scammers like Drescherdumpster.com aren't "dealers", therefore they
don't
qualify for selling at retail prices. Nor do individuals. Consumers
should
never pay "dealer markups" when they get no value in return!

No, Brian, I disagree with you about Ken - he IS a dealer - he buys (?)
and
sells to make a profit. Whether he gives "value in return" MAY be at
issue,
but no more so than with any other dealer. Remember, we're not talking
"authorized dealer" since we are referring to USED merchandise which is
seldom warranteed through the manufacturer and when it is, the
manufacturer's warrantee has nothing to do with the seller of the used
merchandise.

I do agree, however, that consumers in "private" transactions shouldn't
have
to pay "dealer markups". However, the price paid is ultimately the
responsibility of the consumer. If he wants an item badly enough and
can
only find it at "retail" prices, whether through a dealer or not, his
only
choice is to do without the item or pay the higher price - unless, of
course, you would be so kind as to reveal your sources for used audio
gear
at "wholesale prices".

John

It's been pointed out to Brian many times that the issue is not so much
what
he does as how he does it.

Robert, YOUR issue may be "how he does it" but mine is not - I am simply
pointing out that the Bluebook has NO relevance in private transactions.

If he were to quote all the prices of the Bluebook,

And what good would that do? I guess it would reveal the amount of profit
DEALERS would make on the resale of that trade-in, not to mention the
additional profit realized by the dealer by normally selling at full retail
when a trade is involved. Again, I have no quarrel with legitimate
dealers - they deserve a profit for their investment and the services they
provide, though I still question the appropriateness of dodging normal
advertising costs by intruding on usenet.

Transactions between private individuals involve prices agreed upon by the
buyer and seller based on much more variable factors (availability, timing
and emotion are three factors that come to mind) than the history of dealer
transactions.

rather than the ones he
mistakenly thinks are relevant, he would be performing a service, EVEN
THOUGH it is frequently not the case that the Bluebook is inaccurate or
inapplicable.

Is that a double negative? Are you saying "...it is frequently the case
that the Bluebook is accurate and applicable."?


The slandering of sellers with Brian's peculiar insulting turns of phrase
is
merely an emotional outlet for Brian. As he is himself a notorious
scammer,
it is strange mental pathology that forces his mind to indict others for
what he himself is guilty of.

I was making NO comment about Brian's "people skills". I believe his
behavior is only encouraged by the reaction of some posters on this NG.

Brian's rigidity is striking. It's as if Brian's mind wears a straight
jacket, with blinkers to boot. He is like a ghost that walks the same
stairway each night, and says the same words.

This is a shame, because adaptation is the great characteristic of
sentient
intelligence. As I look back at Brian's posts of ten years ago, they were
commentaries on a wide variety of subjects. His posts were arrogant, but
there was a mind at work.

Brian seems fated to walk the same path until he dies.

Are you sure you're not looking at your own reflection?

I will bow out of this discussion now.

Regards
John

"John Richards" wrote in message
.. .

[snip]
Robert, YOUR issue may be "how he does it" but mine is not - I am simply
pointing out that the Bluebook has NO relevance in private transactions.

If he were to quote all the prices of the Bluebook,

And what good would that do? I guess it would reveal the amount of profit
DEALERS would make on the resale of that trade-in, not to mention the
additional profit realized by the dealer by normally selling at full
retail
when a trade is involved. Again, I have no quarrel with legitimate
dealers - they deserve a profit for their investment and the services they
provide, though I still question the appropriateness of dodging normal
advertising costs by intruding on usenet.

I don't think information is a bad thing. It would be a mistake to rely on
that book as a definitive resource.
It can be a negotiating tool, or it can be totally irrelevant.

Transactions between private individuals involve prices agreed upon by the
buyer and seller based on much more variable factors (availability, timing
and emotion are three factors that come to mind) than the history of
dealer
transactions.

I couldn't agree with you more (indulging my propensity for double
negatives).

rather than the ones he
mistakenly thinks are relevant, he would be performing a service, EVEN
THOUGH it is frequently not the case that the Bluebook is inaccurate or
inapplicable.

Is that a double negative? Are you saying "...it is frequently the case
that the Bluebook is accurate and applicable."?

I wouldn't want to get into an argument on that point. I would guess that
for items of recent manufacture, it may have relevance. That is not the same
as "definitive relevance."


The slandering of sellers with Brian's peculiar insulting turns of
phrase
is
merely an emotional outlet for Brian. As he is himself a notorious
scammer,
it is strange mental pathology that forces his mind to indict others for
what he himself is guilty of.

I was making NO comment about Brian's "people skills". I believe his
behavior is only encouraged by the reaction of some posters on this NG.

I understand, but it's an issue for me.


Brian's rigidity is striking. It's as if Brian's mind wears a straight
jacket, with blinkers to boot. He is like a ghost that walks the same
stairway each night, and says the same words.

This is a shame, because adaptation is the great characteristic of
sentient
intelligence. As I look back at Brian's posts of ten years ago, they
were
commentaries on a wide variety of subjects. His posts were arrogant, but
there was a mind at work.

Brian seems fated to walk the same path until he dies.

Are you sure you're not looking at your own reflection?

Quite sure. At worst, people may be annoyed by the mechanical irriation of
my posts.

Unlike Brian, I don't hurt sellers or buyers.
Unlike Brian, I don't send people viruses, jam their email boxes with
About.com list subscriptions.
Unlike Brian, I don't call his neighbors in the middle of the night hissing
that he's a sex pervert.
Unlike Brian, I don't infiltrate other people's film projects and send
forged messages to the participants.
Unlike Brian, I don't run fraudulent scam websites, http://www.worldjazz.com
and http://www.worldjazz.com, using multiple false identities, aliases, and
fictitious fronts.

Ken Drescher wrote...

I feel price is determined by the seller and buyer -- that simple.

Does that mean that, if a customer felt your price were too high, you'd dicker
with him?

In article , "John Richards" wrote:

Unlike Brian, I don't hurt sellers or buyers.
Unlike Brian, I don't send people viruses, jam their email boxes with
About.com list subscriptions.
Unlike Brian, I don't call his neighbors in the middle of the night
hissing
that he's a sex pervert.
Unlike Brian, I don't infiltrate other people's film projects and send
forged messages to the participants.
Unlike Brian, I don't run fraudulent scam websites,
http://www.worldjazz.com
and http://www.worldjazz.com, using multiple false identities, aliases,
and
fictitious fronts.

This may be true but you are AWFULLY annoying to those of us who prefer to
simply ignore Brian. I would guess that those who choose to ignore Brian
are not bothered by the above harassments - I know I 'm not.

John

Personally, I'm a little annoyed by both sides. But whereas Robert clutters
email/newsgroups with his postings, he also does some service by identifying
Brian's harrasment.

YOU may not be affected by Brian's harrasment, John, but many are, and
directly. See the above statements to show what Brian has done, both on and
off this newsgroup.

It's really funny that you pick apart Robert's postings, yet you cheerfully
ignore Brian's, which do more real harm than Robert's. The ONLY thing I can
see Robert doing more harm in is using more lines, so those on dialup, should
they choose to download his message, have a wait longer.

I think many of us here have found ways to turn our ears off from Brian. I
know I have. But he still persists in harrasing people, without real
justification. So while Robert's (and others') postings get long, they serve
more of a positive purpose than Brian's. And in many ways, I'm even thankful
that he has stuck it out as long as Brian has, and continued to fight the
battle many of us gave up on.

Brian will not just go away if you leave him alone or ignore him. That has
been proven for the most part. So I gladly put up with extra postings to see
the fight continued by someone who cares.

Just my 2 cents. And apologies for the bandwith.

Todd

I feel price is determined by the seller and buyer -- that simple.

Does that mean that, if a customer felt your price were too high, you'd
dicker
with him?


Possibly so, possibly not. The market may help me decide. I just chopped
cassette deck prices. And you didn't even have to ask!

Ken
Pa href=http://members.aol.com/KDresch/audio.net.htmlaudio.net/a, Used
Audio ShopPBrands: Marantz, Pioneer, Kenwood, Advent, Apt, JBL, Technics,
Magnepan, Harman Kardon, AR and many others.P100% Customer Satisfaction
Guaranteed since 1995.

Trading product at a dealer is just like trading in a car. You get less than
what the product is worth. You pay for convenience. The dealer's argument is
that he has to put the item on the shelf and sell it. That's somewhat legit.
My position is ... hey your already making 40-50 points off me on the new piece
I'm buying. That alone deserves a dealer to pay more than the usual 1/2
something is worth for your trade. Why should I PAY you to take my old piece.
That's why I never trade in anything. There's always the classifieds or today
there's ebay with thousands of people chomping at the bit to pay MORE than
something is worth.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Is it fair to offer the bluebook price for a piece of stereo? In my stereo
store I used the bluebook and I always paid the low trade in price. And
yes, I definitely made money ON THE AVERAGE. The larger profits on most
pieces were there to off set the occasional dead loss of a piece that was
unexplainably unpopular or that was discovered to have a flaw after we
bought it. A store should at least offer return privileges, if not a short
warranty.

The Bluebook is a decent indicator of the average demand in the country, so
you can see if an older piece is in demand ( e.g.-Marantz tube gear, etc) or
just an old stereo. But it cannot tell you what the next person who walks
in the door will pay. That is an uncontrollable variable. There are people
somewhere who will pay an obscene price for a specific piece of stereo gear.
The luck factor is finding them. Actually HIM, becasue you have only one
piece so you only care to find that one person. I always started high to
see if that guy would walk in the door. A priveate party doesn't have the
advantage of the traffic of a stereo store.
The Bluebook is aimed at the general public, not that one guy who has been
hoping to find that piece.
You can use eBay's Completed Sales data for the range that a particular
piece will bring with their national audience, but even then you will see
that sales prices have peaks and lows that can be explained only by the fact
that different peopel are in the market at any time. Like any auction if
you sell when a bunch of garage sales mentality shoppers are looking you
will get garage sale bids. If there are several fans of your item
coincidentally looking at the same time there may be a bidding war, Lucky
you.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
Trading product at a dealer is just like trading in a car. You get less
than
what the product is worth. You pay for convenience. The dealer's
argument is
that he has to put the item on the shelf and sell it. That's somewhat
legit.
My position is ... hey your already making 40-50 points off me on the new
piece
I'm buying. That alone deserves a dealer to pay more than the usual 1/2
something is worth for your trade.

It's just like the car dealer - he can discount the car and give you a
wholesale price for your trade in , or he can arrive at the same number by
not discounting the price but giving a big trade in. He will juggle numbers
any way that you seem to prefer, but you will be give wholesale for your
trade in.

Why should I PAY you to take my old piece.

Here's why: To a dealer there is a difference between having you PAY $100
cash or TRADE IN a piece that has a $100 wholesale price. The cash can be
out in the bank and that's an end to that. The trade in has to be checked
out, put on the shelf, explained to customers, demonstrated, maybe
negotiated over, and sold, in hopes that it will stay gone, not come back
for a refund for the sales process to begin again. And while it's on his
shelf it is competing with the dealer's new stock, so he wants to make a
similar profit margin as his new products.

That's why I never trade in anything. There's always the classifieds or
today
there's ebay with thousands of people chomping at the bit to pay MORE than
something is worth.

You are absolutely right. The dealer's point of view is his; yours is
yours. Both are legitimate. It is totally voluntary on both sides. The
dealer can say he doesn't want your gear; you can say you don't accept his
offer. I took trades in my store and always bought used gear at the low
wholesale price. And I freely told people that they could probably get more
if they sold it themselves. The ones who sold it to me wanted to avoid the
process of selling it themselves. You can look at it as another example of
people paying for time saving, convenience, and avoidance of aggravation.
Again, it's like your car. A car dealer will give wholesale for your trade
in , however he makes the deal look. You can get more for your car if you
sell it yorself. You have to decide if it is worth it to you.

"John Richards" wrote:
When will you people understand? Only DEALERS are allowed to cite
wholesale prices to justify low trade-in allowances.

Scammers like Drescherdumpster.com aren't "dealers", therefore they
don't qualify for selling at retail prices. Nor do individuals.
Consumers
should never pay "dealer markups" when they get no value in return!

Well, look at it this way. It's a free market in luxury goods. When I had
a store customers would offer to pay me wholesale or less for my
merchandise. Depending on my needs for money I would would say Yes, No, or
Lets' talk.

But I never said "You aren't a dealer - you don't qualify to buy at dealer
cost".

Qualify? Sellers can ask any price they want for anything they have to
sell. And buyers can offer any price they want. Stereo is not a life or
death situation. If I want to ask $150 for my used Sony receiver that was
$150 retail I am not killing someone, I am just being hopeful. Someone
might pay that. Just like if you offer $17 (below bluebook wholesale) to a
person at a garage sale for his old stack of Marantz tube gear. Someone
might take it.

I think I said all that.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
In my stereo
store I used the bluebook and I always paid the low trade in price

Why always? The low trade in price is for an ugly piece. Why not pay
the
customer with the nice piece a fair price?

He's being honest about what he did.
From my experience with Stereo Trading Outlet, this is a typical approach.

The dealer pulls out the Bluebook, and uses it against the seller to
justify
a low price. It's a weapon.

No, it's not a weapon, it's merely an indicator of expected wholesale and
retail values that the dealer uses to ensure a profit - which is why he's in
business.

Just as Brian L. McCarty is using it as a weapon
to try, in complete futility, to bludgeon people into doing his will.

As far as fairness is concerned, I don't think dealers are going to change
the way they think. Given that many of them have already found out it's a
very tough business, a lot of them simply aren't around anymore.

I wonder how many "brick and mortar" dealers end up subsidizing their
internet competitors by unknowingly providing equipment recommendations and
auditions to internet customers who have no intention of buying from them.


What has changed things for the benefit of the customer are the web, and
usenet, ie., rec.audio.marketplace.
Gradually, more and more people are developing the courage to bypass
dealers as middlemen and trust each other.

Until the "no overhead" dealers took over usenet and destroyed much of that
trust.


I feel this is the wrong subject for "ideology". What's going to happen,
will happen. The world is changing under our feet.
Regardless of what any of us says, be he a good guy or a fat pompous
*******, it isn't going to change squat.

Unfortunately, I agree with you on this point.

John

Que sera, sera.

"John Richards" wrote
I wonder how many "brick and mortar" dealers end up subsidizing their
internet competitors by unknowingly providing equipment recommendations
and
auditions to internet customers who have no intention of buying from them.

That's one of the reasons I closed my store after 22 years. My best example
is when I loaned B&K Ref 30 to customer for a couple of weeks to compare to
a couple of other processors he borrowed from othere stores in town. He
liked the Ref 30 then wanted a price on a Ref 50. I gave him a very low
price and he came back to me with an internet price $100 lower (not from an
authorized dealer) and when I didn't match it I lost the sale.

And he wasn't the only one. At least he gave me a chance to meet the
internet price. Most never bothered.

Used gear was one of the few profitable areas left. Well to do people just
want to get rid of it. You would be amazed at how much old stuff people
give to customer installers just to have them haul it away.

The funny thing is that audiophiles here complain about the lack of high end
stores in town, but when you ask them where they bought their
systems.............

Robert, was this a statement made by you?

What has changed things for the benefit of the customer are the web,
and
usenet, ie., rec.audio.marketplace.
Gradually, more and more people are developing the courage to bypass
dealers as middlemen and trust each other.

And is this also a statement made by you?

I do not see the connection between the presence of dealers on usenet and
the existence or lack of trust between private individuals.

I guess you just don't get it.

Profit is the soul of the capitalist system in which we happen to live.

But do you agree that perhaps we can salvage a few areas of life where
profit is not the driving force? Perhaps family, friends, charitable
organizations, strangers in need and even public forums?

You may harbor, as many people do, a resentment of this concept.
I know I do.

So you are a socialist at heart?

But whenever it bothers me that someone bought Item X for price Y so he
could sell it for 2Y, I remind myself that this is the system in which we
live, and an exception cannot be justified simply because it is an item or
area of interest to me. It is an inevitable consequence of the dominant
economic system.

As are spam, infomercials, unsolicited and deceptive mailings, telemarketing
and an endless number of other schemes that I am probably too naive to
identify. Let's just turn the "capitalists" loose and abandon any sense of
humanity.


Don't waste time trying to develop an ideology that promotes profitless
exchange of hifi equipment. The complications are not worth it.


Gosh, Robert, please forgive me. You are correct as always. I will try
harder to conform to all your pronouncements as everyone should, but I
occasionally entertain delusions that perhaps usenet could return to what it
was meant to be, a non commercial public forum rather than a free for all
for anyone trying to make an easy buck. Again, I apologize, please don't be
angry with me. :-(

John

On 16/8/03 23:31, in article ,
"John Richards" wrote:

Gosh, Robert, please forgive me. You are correct as always. I will try
harder to conform to all your pronouncements as everyone should, but I
occasionally entertain delusions that perhaps usenet could return to what it
was meant to be, a non commercial public forum rather than a free for all
for anyone trying to make an easy buck. Again, I apologize, please don't be
angry with me. :-(

Your sarcasm goes right over Bobby's head, I'm sorry. Just like when he was
roundly rebuked by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in his lawsuit against
Drexel University - his lawyer said, jokingly, "well you can always appeal
to the US Supreme Court". He takes it serious, and 50 grand later THEY
laugh and mock him, too.

You've got to wonder about a 51 year old son that has never made one
contribution to society, and has taken my money all his life.

I'm sorry you've tried to have a dialogue with him, John. Forget it. He's
too far gone.

Sylvan Morein, DDS

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
ws.com...
On 16/8/03 23:13, in article
. net, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

then wanted a price on a Ref 50. I gave him a very low
price and he came back to me with an internet price $100 lower (not from
an
authorized dealer) and when I didn't match it I lost the sale.

You wouldn't knock $100 off a piece that had $1500 gross PROFIT in it? No
wonder you're outta business, you're a real dumb **** aren't you!


I said "I gave him a very low price", which was $2300 for $2998 piece. He
wanted it for $2200.

The gross profit on most electronics is 35% to 40%, and I offered the
discount up front. Being an internet shopper type he looked for a better
price on the net. That happens a lot.

So-called "high end" audio gear has 100% markup for the dealer.

Speakers, usually. Electronics usually has 35% to 40% gross margin for
stereo. Video is 20% to 35%. If a store were to give total first class
retail service before , during and after the sale it would need that kind of
markup to pay for the facility and staff that provided the service. Since
few customers will pay retail, stores give discounts, and the service
before during and after the sale usually reflects the store's discount
policy. More discounts menas less money for facilities and staff. The
ultimte low prices come from the internet sellers who offer no demo
facilities, do not stock the goods, but just fill special orders, and have
no service after the sale. But they have great prices for people who do not
want service.

Virtually more than any other kind of product being sold. It's a business
built on
lies and deception; there is NO audio difference.

I don't know about the whole audio business. The example I gave was a
customer approaching me asking for the loan of my equipment, also borrowing
from other dealers, making his decision on which item he wanted (the one he
decided was better in his home in his system), then buying on the internet
from a non-dealer. I can't quite see where the lies and deception comes in.

You're just the most recent example of this audio thug mentality.

That, combined with the "you're just a dumb ****" remark must mean that you
see me as some kind of representative of the whole audio industry, which you
seem to hold in low esteem. I have known some jerks and crooks in the
business, and also some very honest and upright people. I always judged each
person separately, based on what I knew about him.

"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
ws.com...
On 16/8/03 23:13, in article
. net, "Wylie Williams"
wrote:

[snip]
That, combined with the "you're just a dumb ****" remark must mean that
you
see me as some kind of representative of the whole audio industry, which
you
seem to hold in low esteem. I have known some jerks and crooks in the
business, and also some very honest and upright people. I always judged
each
person separately, based on what I knew about him.

I hope you realize that you're responding to a forgery by Brian L. McCarty.

I have no sympathy with the opinions which he gives.