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#1
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Randi's last bblog entry, what Stereophile can do to help
Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he
ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In this series his brash style was in evidence with his pull no punches approach clearly seen. The sad thing is it leaves unanswered by testing question of the core belief system of the subjective enterprise. One of the latter's weaknesses is having no systematic way to draw a line in the sand as to how far subjective listening provides any useful feedback. Mr. Atkinson has shown some quite muted responses in print to claims of "stones" wire etc. which allows one to see them as damnation by faint praise or as a bone tossed to astute readers who can read between the lines. In speakers listening of the sort done in the subjective enterprise is almost universally accepted to have some value, with correct decoding,ex. "warm" as some freq greater level in the upperbass/mid range; my ever popular "chocolate" eludes decoding. The failure of the subjective enterprise is because there is absolutely wno ay to know when the accepted by all turns into "stones" and similar. It is a world of your opinion is as good as my opinion and all is bliss in ignorance for want of a defining method to spot what really makes a difference such that some change rises above the threshold of audibility. If Mr. Atkinson shrinks from embracing the reality of the subjective enterprise by testing, perhaps he can address methods to shine light on the total morass of "you got your opinion and I got mine" that something can be heard. Let him publish his clear line in the sand and reasons why that exclude "stones" etc. and why wire etc. apparently is kosher. Let him tell us what method allows him to reach these conclusions so that others may make benefit of it and independently confirm them. Let him list all commonly reviewed items/practices that appear in print and show us the status of each according to his method. Would the readership be so shocked at this so as to lose faith in what is published in almost every article about "breakin" wires swapped in and out and the predictable list of "ancillary" gear/practices that makes the majic happen. Can he then tell us how he decides if each of his authors has grasp of this method, why some might not, and make a neat package of the whole. |
#3
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On 12/11/04 11:12 AM, in article ,
" wrote: wrote: Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In this series his brash style was in evidence with his pull no punches approach clearly seen. I agree. He pullss no punches. But what puzzled me about this article of Randi's is that it exists at all. As I wrote in an earlier posting, his previous week's Commentary had again contained misstatements and misattributions of what I was supposed to have said and done. I emailed Randi requesting him to publish a reasonably short response correcting these errors. He emailed me back, saying "My readers are getting weary of this discussion. I will provide your e-mail address to them, so that those who wish to follow up on the matter may do so." I note that he has indeed published my email address in his most recent commentary. However, contrary to the implication in his reason for not publishing my response -- "my readers are getting weary of this subject" -- he then publishes a number of e-mails from his readers who are universally anti-Stereophile. A trivial matter, I admit. But it raises to me what is an important point: that if the Amazing Randi is not capable of honesty in a small matter such as this, why do you and other skeptics feel that he _can_ be trusted to be honest when it comes to large matters, such as the $1 million challenge? I think from Randi's behavior he underestimated the passion of those he attempts to debunk as well as being uninterested in setting or even having the record straight. When I earlier referred to "debunking" as the less useful brother to science - I was serious - the debunkers are rarely interested in shedding light on a subject as bashing and "disproving" in the sloppiest most sensational method. Rarely has the world seen a debunker retract anything if their methods weren't quite correct or if they were later shown to have done a faulty experiment. In fact, they tend to blast first and ask questions later. Snake oil in this business is well known - and some still fall for it, however, given the nature of the mind it is not surprsing, and debunkers prey upon and act the same as those they denounce once the "experiemnt" is over - making them contributors to the confusing morass that is the snake oil side of the house. |
#4
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""if the Amazing Randi is not capable of honesty in a small matter such
as this, why do you and other skeptics feel that he _can_ be trusted to be honest when it comes to large matters, such as the $1 million challenge? John Atkinson" If the real test is done, he is completely out of the loop on it, read again the test info. If he is the only sticking point, then any number of people on this list will be happy to set up a test, will you participate? I offered a way for you to address the question of how you arrive at the conclusion of which audio gear, all of it's categories, is past or not the line you draw in the sand. Which audio gear iswhich and why and how can some clarity using your method can be brought to the complete morass and nihilism that marks the subjective enterprise at present. |
#6
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#7
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On 12/11/04 5:12 PM, in article ,
" wrote: wrote: A trivial matter, I admit. But it raises to me what is an important point: that if the Amazing Randi is not capable of honesty in a small matter such as this, why do you and other skeptics feel that he _can_ be trusted to be honest when it comes to large matters, such as the $1 million challenge? And why the focus on Randi? He's just a sideshow, a promoter if you will. The real issue is valid, reliable and repeatable testing techniques about acoustical cause of sonic claims, is it not? Which is what you have not yet addressed. Questions about Randi's 'honesty' are a red herring. Not exactly - a scientists only asset is honesty. And the subject was Randi's ongoing attack of Stereophile, and his apparent unwillingness to correct mistake and misstatements he has made because "his readers are weary" which is a pretty lame excuse if you ask me, especially since he is supposed to stand for scientific accuracy. It is further astonishing to me that he would then go on and fan the flames with lots of his follower's posts despite their "weariness" to the topic. Double standard and NOT a good example to follow. I agree that the "real" issue is scientifically verifying observation - repeatably and honestly. So the question is, if Randi is unwilling to be 100% honest and evenhanded in his mistake correction, and is kind of weaselly about how - how the heck is he supposed to be credible on things that really matter a lot - and he has a vested interest in its outcome? |
#8
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wrote in message
... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... It's unfortunate for all of us that Randi has been so sloppy in his presentation of the "facts" and unwilling to correct his mistakes (he's had ample opportunity). At this point all I can assume is that he is just as much of a con-man as those he accuses. Regards, Tip |
#9
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B&D wrote:
On 12/11/04 5:12 PM, in article , " wrote: wrote: A trivial matter, I admit. But it raises to me what is an important point: that if the Amazing Randi is not capable of honesty in a small matter such as this, why do you and other skeptics feel that he _can_ be trusted to be honest when it comes to large matters, such as the $1 million challenge? And why the focus on Randi? He's just a sideshow, a promoter if you will. The real issue is valid, reliable and repeatable testing techniques about acoustical cause of sonic claims, is it not? Which is what you have not yet addressed. Questions about Randi's 'honesty' are a red herring. Not exactly - a scientists only asset is honesty. I sure hope those who called themselves scietists has more than simply honesty. And the subject was Randi's ongoing attack of Stereophile, and his apparent unwillingness to correct mistake and misstatements he has made because "his readers are weary" which is a pretty lame excuse if you ask me, especially since he is supposed to stand for scientific accuracy. It is further astonishing to me that he would then go on and fan the flames with lots of his follower's posts despite their "weariness" to the topic. Double standard and NOT a good example to follow. I agree that the "real" issue is scientifically verifying observation - repeatably and honestly. So the question is, if Randi is unwilling to be 100% honest and evenhanded in his mistake correction, and is kind of weaselly about how - how the heck is he supposed to be credible on things that really matter a lot - and he has a vested interest in its outcome? The real issue is that Stereophile knows that it cannot take that challenge and win. Everything else said to defend itself is "weaselly" (sic). The data will support whether Stereophile wins that challenge or not, so I don't see how Stereophile can be afraid of Randi's honesty. Randi has no problem of using a third party to proctor the test, if I recall correctly. |
#10
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wrote:
wrote: If [Randi] is the only sticking point... What made you think that he was? Note that I used the word "particularly." then any number of people on this list will be happy to set up a test, will you participate? As I have said repeatedly, I am not interested, nor ahs anyone offered any valid reason why I _should_ be interested. How about $1 million? How about the glory of proving to those doubters that Stereophile's reviewers know what they are doing? How about shutting up Randi once and for all? |
#11
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In article , B&D
wrote: Which is what you have not yet addressed. Questions about Randi's 'honesty' are a red herring. Not exactly - a scientists only asset is honesty. A necessary asset perhaps, but obviously not the only one. |
#12
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#13
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#14
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"Tip" wrote in message
... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. It's unfortunate for all of us that Randi has been so sloppy in his presentation of the "facts" and unwilling to correct his mistakes (he's had ample opportunity). At this point all I can assume is that he is just as much of a con-man as those he accuses. It's even more unfortunate that Stereophile is so unwilling to put themselves on the line and lacks the courage of their "convictions." They seem to have a history of misstating and dissembling as is evidenced in an article from the Boston Audio Society which can be found he http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...l_thinking.htm It seems they have a bit of nerve criticizing the honesty of others. |
#15
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B&D wrote:
On 12/12/04 11:14 AM, in article , "Chung" wrote: then any number of people on this list will be happy to set up a test, will you participate? As I have said repeatedly, I am not interested, nor ahs anyone offered any valid reason why I _should_ be interested. How about $1 million? How about the glory of proving to those doubters that Stereophile's reviewers know what they are doing? How about shutting up Randi once and for all? Randi will never shut up - he has shown that over his entire career. That's because no one has won that $1 million challenge. $1M is not enough to float a magazine - Stereophile makes a lot more than that for a year. So you're saying it has to be more than what Stereophile makes in a year to make it worthwhile? That's a funny, and extremely arbitrary, value system. And, you know, a lot of magazines are losing money. Randi is attacking the wrong target - attacking a magazine is wrong headed and cynical - he needs to attack the makers of the claptrap. No, *challenge* both the makers and those who publicly endorse the *claytrap*. Hey, just using that word sounds like an attack on Stereophile by you, since you are implying that it is snake oil! |
#16
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Chung wrote:
wrote: As I have said repeatedly, I am not interested, nor [has] anyone offered any valid reason why I _should_ be interested. How about $1 million? James Randi is on record as saying that he would never have to pay up, that he "always has a way out." Given his lack of integrity in my dealings with the man -- see earlier messages -- I have no reason to think that he would pay up. How about the glory of proving to those doubters that Stereophile's reviewers know what they are doing? Why do I need to prove anything to "doubters"? The only people whose opinions I need pay attention to are my readers. How about shutting up Randi once and for all? Why would I want to? He does quite enough to reveal himself a fool and a liar without any more help from me. :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
#17
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Michael McKelvy wrote:
[Stereophile has] a history of misstating and dissembling as is evidenced in an article from the Boston Audio Society which can be found he http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...l_thinking.htm Ah, Mr. McKelvy, you've unearthed more partisan posturings from Tom Nousaine. He certainly has abundant amounts of energy when it comes to defending his blind-testing turf :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
#18
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#19
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chung wrote:
OK, enough of debating tactics. These are not "deabting tactics," Mr. Chung. I have been showing that those who are issuing "challenges" operate a double standard when it comes to integrity and honesty. Do you believe that anyone from Stereophile will pass a DBT proctored by an independent 3rd party on the audibility of Shatki stones? Yes or no? This is not a question for which a yes/no answer is possible. There are too many variables involved, especially given the fact that even a double-blind test can be "fixed" by a dishonest proctor intent on producing a predetermined result. (This has been discussed at length on the Newsgroups, so I see why I need to expand on this statement.) So the only honest answer I can give you is that I have no idea. And neither should you. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
#20
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Having spent a few hours perusing the current issues of both Stereophile
and TAS yesterday, it seems to me Randi shoudl really aim his guns as Pearson & Co -- the level of audiophoolery at TAS seems significantly higher and more pervasive than at Stereophile, if these issues are an indication of their current ideologies. Jonathan Valin's stuff alone would provide a rich vein of nonsense to mine. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#21
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Tip wrote:
wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Actually, there is no such testimony. Miner says: "I have been involved in the design and construction of several notable projects such as Lucasfilms' "Tech Building" at SkyWalker Ranch In Marin county and the "Experience Music Project" in Seattle. I have also worked as an engineer at several television stations and production companies. It has been my privilege and good fortune to work with some of the most knowledgeable people in these fields. I have never heard anyone say that we should utilize some of this subjective techno-voodoo in a real world professional facility. Believe me, anything that can be shown to be effective in improving sound or picture quality is tried and often used. " You may make the inference that during his involvement in the Tech Building project at Skywalker Ranch, he did not hear anyone say that subjective tech-voodoo should be utilized in that project. He does not say that Skywalker Ranch is free of tech-voodoo. Most of the wiring at Skywalker is Belden stuff, btw. It was custom-made to fit unusual installation condition. Nothing voodoo about that. http://www.davidcarroll.com/Files/be...p%20report.PDF |
#22
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Michael McKelvy wrote:
"Tip" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. I see that MIT touts their cabl;es use by Skywalker, and there's praise of its voodoo properties from the B&W guy,...but I have yet to see testimony from Skywalker folk about the *sound* of MIT cables. Shunyata products were found to reduce noise and buzzing -- quite non-voodoo applications in a complex electrical environment. |
#23
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wrote:
wrote: Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In this series his brash style was in evidence with his pull no punches approach clearly seen. I agree. He pullss no punches. But what puzzled me about this article of Randi's is that it exists at all. As I wrote in an earlier posting, his previous week's Commentary had again contained misstatements and misattributions of what I was supposed to have said and done. I emailed Randi requesting him to publish a reasonably short response correcting these errors. He emailed me back, saying "My readers are getting weary of this discussion. I will provide your e-mail address to them, so that those who wish to follow up on the matter may do so." I note that he has indeed published my email address in his most recent commentary. However, contrary to the implication in his reason for not publishing my response -- "my readers are getting weary of this subject" -- he then publishes a number of e-mails from his readers who are universally anti-Stereophile. A trivial matter, I admit. But it raises to me what is an important point: that if the Amazing Randi is not capable of honesty in a small matter such as this, why do you and other skeptics feel that he _can_ be trusted to be honest when it comes to large matters, such as the $1 million challenge? Oh, I dunno, maybe because some of us have followed Randi's career more concertedly than just googling up bits of it from the Web? It's not like he hasn't been publishing in Skeptical magazine for years , for example. The ridiculous 'gotcha' that he *changed his name* was a giveaway that you simply don't know much about the guy. Randi is guilty of the same thing you are, though -- from his commentary and mistakes I would guess he is only peripherally aware of the depth and breadth of audiophile nonsense-space, having been made aware of just some of the most glaring, high-profile examples from it. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#24
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wrote:
wrote: If [Randi] is the only sticking point... What made you think that he was? Note that I used the word "particularly." then any number of people on this list will be happy to set up a test, will you participate? As I have said repeatedly, I am not interested, nor ahs anyone offered any valid reason why I _should_ be interested. In your most recent issue, you published a letter asking for blind testing. So perhaps you should be interested because some of your readers are interested, if not for reasons of intellectual rigor. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#25
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wrote:
Chung wrote: wrote: As I have said repeatedly, I am not interested, nor [has] anyone offered any valid reason why I _should_ be interested. How about $1 million? James Randi is on record as saying that he would never have to pay up, that he "always has a way out." Given his lack of integrity in my dealings with the man -- see earlier messages -- I have no reason to think that he would pay up. How about the glory of proving to those doubters that Stereophile's reviewers know what they are doing? Why do I need to prove anything to "doubters"? The only people whose opinions I need pay attention to are my readers. How about shutting up Randi once and for all? Why would I want to? He does quite enough to reveal himself a fool and a liar without any more help from me. :-) Hmm, so, Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins are happy to put their names on the masthead of a journal and society that features a 'fool and a liar' as one of its most popular spokespersons? -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#26
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B&D wrote:
On 12/12/04 11:23 AM, in article , "Billy Shears" wrote: In article , B&D wrote: Which is what you have not yet addressed. Questions about Randi's 'honesty' are a red herring. Not exactly - a scientists only asset is honesty. A necessary asset perhaps, but obviously not the only one. Fair enough. Without honesty, all the knowledge in the world won't matter. And if your only asset is honesty, well, god bless you. You are definitely not going to be a scientist. |
#27
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"Michael McKelvy" wrote in
message ... "Tip" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. Whether or not Skywalker Ranch paid for the "techno-voodoo" cable is not pertinent to this discussion. What is pertinent is the fact that they do use it and Randi claims they don't. Should Randi be held as responsible for the "facts" he publishes on his website as you hold John Atkinson responsible for the "opinions" he publishes in Stereophile? Should we hold you responsible for your opinion that Skywalker Ranch only uses the cable because it was free when you have produced no evidence to support your claim? Are you claiming that Skywalker Ranch will use anything as long as it's cheap or free? It's unfortunate for all of us that Randi has been so sloppy in his presentation of the "facts" and unwilling to correct his mistakes (he's had ample opportunity). snip It's even more unfortunate that Stereophile is so unwilling to put themselves on the line and lacks the courage of their "convictions." snip It seems they have a bit of nerve criticizing the honesty of others. Funny, that's just what I was thinking about you ;^) It is Randi who is making the accusations, and therefore it is his responsibility to make a truthful claim. But for some reason, he continues to make false claims and run away. Why is Randi unable to correct a handful of false statements on his website, yet he is able to add dozens of statements that continue the falsehoods? I've been a fan of Randi's for many years and I don't believe in "techno-voodoo", but I would like to see John Atkinson be given a fair opportunity, which I do not believe he's had so far. RAHE is acting like a lynch-mob; you don't seem to care whether or not he's guilty, you just want to hang someone from the audiophile press because you don't like their kind. Regards, Tip |
#28
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Isn't it obvious that Stereophile is only interested in readers because
they (readers) are potential buyers of the advertiser's products. The magazine is practically given away to subscribers. The real money comes from advertisers. Since the great majority of the advertisers are promoting over priced equipment and "snake oil", for the magazine to engage in blind testing would discredit or offend these advertisers. I only read Stereophile for entertainment. If I want to "tweak" my system, all I have to do is move my speakers a few inches. ---MIKE--- |
#29
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Steven Sullivan wrote:
Michael McKelvy wrote: "Tip" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. I see that MIT touts their cabl;es use by Skywalker, and there's praise of its voodoo properties from the B&W guy,...but I have yet to see testimony from Skywalker folk about the *sound* of MIT cables. Shunyata products were found to reduce noise and buzzing -- quite non-voodoo applications in a complex electrical environment. I did the search and found that Skywalker Ranch has 500 miles of custom cabling specified by Lucasfilm and manufactured by none other than that old bastion of non-voodoo cables .... Belden. |
#30
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"---MIKE---" wrote in message
... Isn't it obvious that Stereophile is only interested in readers because they (readers) are potential buyers of the advertiser's products. The magazine is practically given away to subscribers. The real money comes from advertisers. Since the great majority of the advertisers are promoting over priced equipment and "snake oil", for the magazine to engage in blind testing would discredit or offend these advertisers. I only read Stereophile for entertainment. If I want to "tweak" my system, all I have to do is move my speakers a few inches. And this differs *how* from Time, Newsweek, Business Week, US News & World Report, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and virtually every other existing printed media publication? They all make the bulk of their revenue from adverstising, and "subsidize" the paid subscriptions to promote circulation. You think, for example, that all those Real Estate supplements in your Sunday paper are there to help people buy houses first and foremost? There there to sell classified Ad Space to Realtors, who in turn use the space to try to sell houses to readers. Once again, laying into Stereophile for the sins of the world. |
#31
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wrote in message
... Michael McKelvy wrote: [Stereophile has] a history of misstating and dissembling as is evidenced in an article from the Boston Audio Society which can be found he http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...l_thinking.htm Ah, Mr. McKelvy, you've unearthed more partisan posturings from Tom Nousaine. He certainly has abundant amounts of energy when it comes to defending his blind-testing turf :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile He believes people shouldn't make false claims about what they can and can't hear. Seems OK to me. |
#32
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#33
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"Tip" wrote in message
... "Michael McKelvy" wrote in message ... "Tip" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. Whether or not Skywalker Ranch paid for the "techno-voodoo" cable is not pertinent to this discussion. What is pertinent is the fact that they do use it and Randi claims they don't. Should Randi be held as responsible for the "facts" he publishes on his website as you hold John Atkinson responsible for the "opinions" he publishes in Stereophile? Should we hold you responsible for your opinion that Skywalker Ranch only uses the cable because it was free when you have produced no evidence to support your claim? Are you claiming that Skywalker Ranch will use anything as long as it's cheap or free? It's unfortunate for all of us that Randi has been so sloppy in his presentation of the "facts" and unwilling to correct his mistakes (he's had ample opportunity). snip It's even more unfortunate that Stereophile is so unwilling to put themselves on the line and lacks the courage of their "convictions." snip It seems they have a bit of nerve criticizing the honesty of others. Funny, that's just what I was thinking about you ;^) It is Randi who is making the accusations, and therefore it is his responsibility to make a truthful claim. What about the claim that Shakti Stones can't possibly do what SP's reviewer claimed he heard them do is in your opinion, untrue? But for some reason, he continues to make false claims and run away. He seems to be making some minor errors, but the essence is correct, Shakti stones are B.S. Why is Randi unable to correct a handful of false statements on his website, yet he is able to add dozens of statements that continue the falsehoods? I've been a fan of Randi's for many years and I don't believe in "techno-voodoo", but I would like to see John Atkinson be given a fair opportunity, which I do not believe he's had so far. That's up to Mr. Atkinson. He has a faior chance to audiotion the stones or at least recomend some lab tests on Shakti Stones and demonstrate a committment to truth about the things that get reviewed. RAHE is acting like a lynch-mob; you don't seem to care whether or not he's guilty, you just want to hang someone from the audiophile press because you don't like their kind. Regards, Tip RAHE is acting like they think it's unreasonable to not have auditioned a simple tweak and that it is also unreasonable to not have some technical oversight. If it were an amp that had been subject to normal test bench rigors, it would still be laughable that the reviewer made the claims he did, but without the tests it's just plain snake oil endorsement. |
#34
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Harry Lavo wrote:
"---MIKE---" wrote in message ... Isn't it obvious that Stereophile is only interested in readers because they (readers) are potential buyers of the advertiser's products. The magazine is practically given away to subscribers. The real money comes from advertisers. Since the great majority of the advertisers are promoting over priced equipment and "snake oil", for the magazine to engage in blind testing would discredit or offend these advertisers. I only read Stereophile for entertainment. If I want to "tweak" my system, all I have to do is move my speakers a few inches. And this differs *how* from Time, Newsweek, Business Week, US News & World Report, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and virtually every other existing printed media publication? They all make the bulk of their revenue from adverstising, and "subsidize" the paid subscriptions to promote circulation. You think, for example, that all those Real Estate supplements in your Sunday paper are there to help people buy houses first and foremost? There there to sell classified Ad Space to Realtors, who in turn use the space to try to sell houses to readers. Once again, laying into Stereophile for the sins of the world. I think there is a big difference as those products are overpriced and they have no effect. If a clothstand is sold for 900$ and praised to improve the room acoustics by a Stereophile reviewer, people get cheated here. And it is everybodys right and even duty to correct those misleading reviews. Some readers might not have the technical background to recognize the absurdity of these claims. I am amazed how Mr. Atkinson is avoiding any statement when directly confronted with impossible claims, saying he *did not test the effectiveness personally*, which implies those stones and green pens really might work. I am sure he has enough experience and knows that the claimed attributes are impossible. Thus he has lost his credibility and integerness for me. In fact the truth will stand out and the damage to his mags image will irritate the owners and advertisers. It is the worst that can happen and there will be consequences. -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
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Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote: Chung wrote: How about shutting up Randi once and for all? Why would I want to? He does quite enough to reveal himself a fool and a liar without any more help from me. :-) Hmm, so, Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins are happy to put their names on the masthead of a journal and society that features a 'fool and a liar' as one of its most popular spokespersons? Apparently so. Perhaps those worthy gentlemen never had occasion to argue with him. :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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---MIKE--- wrote:
Since the great majority of the advertisers are promoting over priced equipment and "snake oil", for the magazine to engage in blind testing would discredit or offend these advertisers. I think it fair to point out that the manufacturer of Shakti Stones, to the best of my knowledgee, has not advertised in Stereophile, and that Tice, outraged by Stereophile's coverage of the "Clock," canceled all its advertising. It would seem, therefore, that I am not very good at following your strategy, Mike. Or perhaps you're wrong. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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On 12/13/04 7:50 PM, in article , "Chung"
wrote: B&D wrote: On 12/12/04 11:23 AM, in article , "Billy Shears" wrote: In article , B&D wrote: Which is what you have not yet addressed. Questions about Randi's 'honesty' are a red herring. Not exactly - a scientists only asset is honesty. A necessary asset perhaps, but obviously not the only one. Fair enough. Without honesty, all the knowledge in the world won't matter. And if your only asset is honesty, well, god bless you. You are definitely not going to be a scientist. And if you aren't honest - you aren't going to be a scientist ... For very long anyway. |
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On 12/13/04 11:13 PM, in article , "Nousaine"
wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: Michael McKelvy wrote: "Tip" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Tying up some loose ends and providing examples of reader responses, he ends on his part the recent series on his blog. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 In which, Randi provides testimony from Dale Miner about the absence of Stereophile's type of "techno-voodoo" at Skywalker Ranch. Do a search on Google for "Skywalker Ranch cable" and you will find that Skywalker Ranch does indeed use "techno-voodoo" cables, power conditioners, etc... Probably for the same reason many studios use expensive cable, it was given to them for promotional reasons. Certainly, since wire is wire, if you are given wire then you don't have the expense of buying it. I see that MIT touts their cabl;es use by Skywalker, and there's praise of its voodoo properties from the B&W guy,...but I have yet to see testimony from Skywalker folk about the *sound* of MIT cables. Shunyata products were found to reduce noise and buzzing -- quite non-voodoo applications in a complex electrical environment. I did the search and found that Skywalker Ranch has 500 miles of custom cabling specified by Lucasfilm and manufactured by none other than that old bastion of non-voodoo cables .... Belden. Belden is an excellent cable manufacturer - they do even more than audio, too! Wonderful folks! |
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