hi,

I was so psyched about the M-Audio REvolution...a great high quality
recording and Midi solution for my XP based DAW. Until it hit me...no
Midi connectors.

Is there some sly way to connect midi to this card...for keyboards...

Or...what is the best comparable card...better than soundblaster,
stable, great drivers, but under $200 ?

Thanks!

Love,

Me

Dear You,

M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Can be found around $145. 24/96 in and out, midi
in and out, S/pdif in and out.

Us

wrote in message
...
hi,

I was so psyched about the M-Audio REvolution...a great high quality
recording and Midi solution for my XP based DAW. Until it hit me...no
Midi connectors.

Is there some sly way to connect midi to this card...for keyboards...

Or...what is the best comparable card...better than soundblaster,
stable, great drivers, but under $200 ?

Thanks!

Love,

Me

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:31:01 -0400, "axtogrind"
wrote:

M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Can be found around $145. 24/96 in and out, midi
in and out, S/pdif in and out.

I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

The Echo Mia-Midi came out about a week after I bought the 2496. I
wish I'd bought that. It goes for about $199.

Thanks for the great input! You have probably saved me grief and
steered me in the right direction

So for the prosumer...the Echo Mia seems to be the best thing out
then...

love,

me


In article ,
says...
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:31:01 -0400, "axtogrind"
wrote:

M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Can be found around $145. 24/96 in and out, midi
in and out, S/pdif in and out.

I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

The Echo Mia-Midi came out about a week after I bought the 2496. I
wish I'd bought that. It goes for about $199.

"Garry" wrote in message

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:31:01 -0400, "axtogrind"
wrote:

M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Can be found around $145. 24/96 in and
out, midi in and out, S/pdif in and out.

I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.

Thanks for confirming my various comments over the years about the AP2496
input overload issue.

AFAIK there are very few quality 24/96 cards with an input level adjustment
that addresses problems with input clipping. In contrast there were quite a
few 16 and 20 bits cards that had analog attenuators prior to the
converters. Reason why being the difficulty of building a
computer-controllable analog attenuator that won't appreciably degrade a
high quality input.

wrote in message
...
Thanks for the great input! You have probably saved me grief and
steered me in the right direction

So for the prosumer...the Echo Mia seems to be the best thing out
then...

love,

me

FWIW, I've been very pleased with my M-Audio AP2496, and I record with it
daily using a small mixer and a small pile of outboard gear. Guitars
(electric, bass, and acoustic) and mics, never a clipping problem. But then
again, it could simply be that my ears and my music suck, so wouldn't know
the difference.

BTW, if I had it to do again, I'd probably get the Mia Midi because it has
balanced inputs, or another M-Audio product like the Delta 1010.

Keith

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:58:36 -0700, Garry wrote:


I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

The Echo Mia-Midi came out about a week after I bought the 2496. I
wish I'd bought that. It goes for about $199.


You're one of very few people who haven't been happy with the
Audiophile 2496.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send it
with a cheap passive device. If it was less sensitive, low-output
devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully, resulting in
a low s/n ratio. An attenuator is cheap, a booster is not. I think a
sensitive input is the right decision. Serious users will of course
use an outboard mixer, allowing any source to drive the card
optimally.

It continues to surprise me, lurking in "audiophile" news groups, that
there seems to be no concept of adjustable output levels, or
indication of input level - even an "overload" led. I wonder if a lot
of diehards who think CD sounds "harsh" are listening to an overloaded
input?

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:58:36 -0700, Garry wrote:

I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

The Echo Mia-Midi came out about a week after I bought the 2496. I
wish I'd bought that. It goes for about $199.

You're one of very few people who haven't been happy with the Audiophile
2496.

On balance, it's a good product. But not even Midiman claims its the best
choice for audio production. They have the Delta 44 & Delta 66 for that.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send it
with a cheap passive device.

Very true, but for many people, this level of complexity is already off
their technical radar. And as you point out, people can have the problem,
know they don't like what they hear, but not know why or what to do about
it.

If it was less sensitive, low-output
devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully, resulting in
a low s/n ratio.

Many competitive products, and its sister products from Midiman, have
switchable +4/-10 input sensitivity. The AP2496 has switchable sensitivity
too, it's just that +4 is not an option with it. I'll bet the hardware to
implement that feature either costs less than $0.10 or is already there. But
the AP2496 was probably not supposed to take sales from the designated audio
production cards in the Delta product line.

An attenuator is cheap, a booster is not.

Digital domain solutions are practical, as well. For example the Mia has +4
inputs, but it also has about 10 dB more dynamic range than the AP2496. So
even if you record with your peaks about 10 dB lower on the Mia, and you
make it up post-tracking, your noise floor due to the card is about the
same. BTW, your noise floor will almost always NOT be limited by the card,
because either of these cards are THAT good.

I think a
sensitive input is the right decision. Serious users will of course
use an outboard mixer, allowing any source to drive the card
optimally.

Except of course that a lot (most?) of outboard mixers are basically +4
devices...

It continues to surprise me, lurking in "audiophile" news groups, that
there seems to be no concept of adjustable output levels, or
indication of input level - even an "overload" led.

In the case of Audition, there are perfectly functional level meters on the
bottom of the screen. If you are getting close to FS, its quite clear.

I wonder if a lot of diehards who think CD sounds "harsh" are listening to
an overloaded
input?

Good point.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:27:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


It continues to surprise me, lurking in "audiophile" news groups, that
there seems to be no concept of adjustable output levels, or
indication of input level - even an "overload" led.

In the case of Audition, there are perfectly functional level meters on the
bottom of the screen. If you are getting close to FS, its quite clear.

I wonder if a lot of diehards who think CD sounds "harsh" are listening to
an overloaded
input?

Good point.


I was speaking of audiophile groups, not audio tech ones :-)
For all their perfectionism and love of interconnects etc., the
audiophiles don't ever seem to have heard of gain structure :-)

"Laurence Payne" wrote in
message

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:27:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

It continues to surprise me, lurking in "audiophile" news groups,
that there seems to be no concept of adjustable output levels, or
indication of input level - even an "overload" led.

In the case of Audition, there are perfectly functional level meters
on the bottom of the screen. If you are getting close to FS, its
quite clear.

I wonder if a lot of diehards who think CD sounds "harsh" are
listening to an overloaded input?

Good point.

I was speaking of audiophile groups, not audio tech ones :-)

OK

For all their perfectionism and love of interconnects etc., the
audiophiles don't ever seem to have heard of gain structure :-)

Agreed. Specific examples come to mind.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:44:52 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

You're one of very few people who haven't been happy with the
Audiophile 2496.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send it
with a cheap passive device. If it was less sensitive, low-output
devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully, resulting in
a low s/n ratio. An attenuator is cheap, a booster is not. I think a
sensitive input is the right decision. Serious users will of course
use an outboard mixer, allowing any source to drive the card
optimally.


Well, judging from the threads I've read I'm not one of the "very
few." My biggest complaint is that nowhere on the M-Audio site does
it warn that the inputs are hot, the inputs are not adjustable, and
that the card really isn't designed for pro users. An attenuator?
Who would want to buy an audio card only to learn after the fact that
he needed an attenuator to manage input levels?

By the way, I feed my card through a mixer (which I guess makes me a
"serious user.") To get usable levels I have to run the mixer's
output at about half the level I would with another card, like my old
DAL Card D+. I could be wrong but I don't see how a mixer feeding a
low level into a hot card can be a good thing.

Garry

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:21:17 -0700, Garry wrote:

Well, judging from the threads I've read I'm not one of the "very
few." My biggest complaint is that nowhere on the M-Audio site does
it warn that the inputs are hot, the inputs are not adjustable, and
that the card really isn't designed for pro users. An attenuator?
Who would want to buy an audio card only to learn after the fact that
he needed an attenuator to manage input levels?

I can't imagine a pro user who didn't assume he'd have to line up his
gain structure :-)

By the way, I feed my card through a mixer (which I guess makes me a
"serious user.") To get usable levels I have to run the mixer's
output at about half the level I would with another card, like my old
DAL Card D+. I could be wrong but I don't see how a mixer feeding a
low level into a hot card can be a good thing.

It's feeding an appropriate level. Probably your mixer is also
capable of driving a nominal +4dB input. You'd complain if it
couldn't :-)


CubaseFAQ page www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:44:52 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:58:36 -0700, Garry wrote:
I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send it
with a cheap passive device. If it was less sensitive, low-output
devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully, resulting in
a low s/n ratio.

It's interesting to see this point of view, because there are a great
number of people out there who think the AP2496 input is not sensitive
enough! A typical tape feed from a consumer receiver isn't hot enough
to get full scale levels into this card.

Is the AP2496 a low-end semipro card (in which case the input is too
sensitive), or is it a high-end consumer card (in which case the input
is not sensitive enough)? Have M-Audio achieved the dubious
distinction of failing to satisfy *anyone* in this respect?

FWIW, I use an AP2496 in a consumer-level setup, and am very happy
with the results. Despite the impracticality of its input sensitivity,
it is still more than capable of making transparent recordings from
any domestic analogue source. But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:05:07 GMT, (Clive
Backham) wrote:

It's interesting to see this point of view, because there are a great
number of people out there who think the AP2496 input is not sensitive
enough! A typical tape feed from a consumer receiver isn't hot enough
to get full scale levels into this card.

Is the AP2496 a low-end semipro card (in which case the input is too
sensitive), or is it a high-end consumer card (in which case the input
is not sensitive enough)? Have M-Audio achieved the dubious
distinction of failing to satisfy *anyone* in this respect?

FWIW, I use an AP2496 in a consumer-level setup, and am very happy
with the results. Despite the impracticality of its input sensitivity,
it is still more than capable of making transparent recordings from
any domestic analogue source. But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

The manual specifies a "Peak Analog Input Signal" of +2dB. Indeed
rather an "in-between" figure! This is the sort of level you tend to
get from domestic CD players, which for some reason seem to have
redefined domestic "Line Level".

I guess someone brought up on "Hi-fi" might expect straight-out-the
box interfacing with other equipment.

CubaseFAQ page www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm

"Clive Backham" wrote in message

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:44:52 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:58:36 -0700, Garry wrote:
I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As
mentioned, the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain
in the ass. Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they
replaced it), and the manual does little to explain the odd mixer
controls.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send
it with a cheap passive device. If it was less sensitive,
low-output devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully,
resulting in a low s/n ratio.

It's interesting to see this point of view, because there are a great
number of people out there who think the AP2496 input is not sensitive
enough! A typical tape feed from a consumer receiver isn't hot enough
to get full scale levels into this card.

Given that its noise floor is appreciably better than most consumer audio
sources other than CD players (which should never be hooked to an AP2496
analog input, anyway), this is typically a non-problem.

It's important to leave some headroom when recording analog sources.

Is the AP2496 a low-end semipro card (in which case the input is too
sensitive), or is it a high-end consumer card (in which case the input
is not sensitive enough)?

To me it's obvious that its a mid-high-end consumer card.

Have M-Audio achieved the dubious
distinction of failing to satisfy *anyone* in this respect?

I think the requirement that a sound card be driven to FS is bogus. In fact,
its a bad idea.

FWIW, I use an AP2496 in a consumer-level setup, and am very happy
with the results.

Love that headroom and relatively low noise floor!

Despite the impracticality of its input sensitivity,
it is still more than capable of making transparent recordings from
any domestic analogue source.

Agreed, and with a bullet!

But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

That would depend on how you define "decent". I think that leaving 10 dB of
headroom while digitizing analog sources is a good idea.

"Laurence Payne" wrote in
message
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:05:07 GMT, (Clive
Backham) wrote:

It's interesting to see this point of view, because there are a great
number of people out there who think the AP2496 input is not
sensitive enough! A typical tape feed from a consumer receiver isn't
hot enough to get full scale levels into this card.

Is the AP2496 a low-end semipro card (in which case the input is too
sensitive), or is it a high-end consumer card (in which case the
input is not sensitive enough)? Have M-Audio achieved the dubious
distinction of failing to satisfy *anyone* in this respect?

FWIW, I use an AP2496 in a consumer-level setup, and am very happy
with the results. Despite the impracticality of its input
sensitivity, it is still more than capable of making transparent
recordings from any domestic analogue source. But I do drive it from
the main outputs of a preamp in order to achieve decent record
levels.

The manual specifies a "Peak Analog Input Signal" of +2dB. Indeed
rather an "in-between" figure! This is the sort of level you tend to
get from domestic CD players, which for some reason seem to have
redefined domestic "Line Level".

+2 dB is about 1 volt, and one volt RMS is a very common minimum input
sensitivity, and FS output level for consumer sound cards.

I guess someone brought up on "Hi-fi" might expect straight-out-the
box interfacing with other equipment.

I think that the problem, if there is one, is that

(1) There are a lot of CD players that put out 2.0 to 2.5 volts with FS
recorded levels.

(2) Most power amps require 1.5 to 2.5 volts to be driven to full output

(3) People forget that they are working in the computer domain, and don't
know that bringing up levels digitally after the analog capture step is good
form.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:48:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

That would depend on how you define "decent". I think that leaving 10 dB of
headroom while digitizing analog sources is a good idea.

They can't win! Fed from a domestic unit, the Audiophile will be
difficult to overload - but the user may complain that he can't get
the signal anywhere the 0dB mark. The hobbiest has a mixer capable
of sending +4dB, and complains the card won't accept this
"professional" level.

A pro just ignores the numbers, sets up the gain structure and gets on
with the job.

"Laurence Payne" wrote in
message

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:48:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

That would depend on how you define "decent". I think that leaving
10 dB of headroom while digitizing analog sources is a good idea.

They can't win!

If "they" is M-Audio, IMO they do win. They've got two Delta series cards
(AP2496 and Delta 66) that cover audio production and consumer, and another
card (Revolution) that is more overtly consumer. Other than games and
hardware MIDI, they're way ahead of Creative Labs performance-wise by a big
margin. Given that soft MIDI is a trend...

Fed from a domestic unit, the Audiophile will be
difficult to overload - but the user may complain that he can't get
the signal anywhere the 0dB mark.

I think someone said AP2496 FS is +2...

The hobbiest has a mixer capable
of sending +4dB, and complains the card won't accept this
"professional" level.

OTOH, some mixers have tape outputs that are structured for consumer tape
machines...

A pro just ignores the numbers, sets up the gain structure and gets on
with the job.

I agree with that!

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:33:29 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If "they" is M-Audio, IMO they do win. They've got two Delta series cards
(AP2496 and Delta 66) that cover audio production and consumer, and another
card (Revolution) that is more overtly consumer. Other than games and
hardware MIDI, they're way ahead of Creative Labs performance-wise by a big
margin. Given that soft MIDI is a trend...


Yeah. I use a Delta 1010. Hardware switchable to nominal -10 and
+4 on input and output. Though, come to think about it, when I set it
up they seemed to have different ideas about level to much of my other
gear.

Fed from a domestic unit, the Audiophile will be
difficult to overload - but the user may complain that he can't get
the signal anywhere the 0dB mark.

I think someone said AP2496 FS is +2...

Indeed. But on the meter in the control applet I bet that's marked as
zero :-)


CubaseFAQ page www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:48:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Clive Backham" wrote in message


But I do drive it from the main outputs
of a preamp in order to achieve decent record levels.

That would depend on how you define "decent". I think that leaving 10 dB of
headroom while digitizing analog sources is a good idea.

That's probably entirely sensible, but I've spent decades on both
analogue and digital systems aiming for record levels close to FS, and
habits like that can be hard to break. It just feels psychologically
better to be peaking around -3dB, even though I keep telling myself
that -10 would be just as good (when transferring LPs).

I typically set up for -3dB on what I think are the loudest sections,
and have yet to see an unexpected peak blow the headroom. But
recording LPs gives you the ability to set up levels at leisure. If
you're into live recording you don't have that luxury, and in that
case I totally agree that you need to run with additional headroom.
(But in that case, it's debatable if the AP2496 is the right card for
live recording).

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:20:54 GMT, (Clive
Backham) wrote:

I typically set up for -3dB on what I think are the loudest sections,
and have yet to see an unexpected peak blow the headroom. But
recording LPs gives you the ability to set up levels at leisure. If
you're into live recording you don't have that luxury, and in that
case I totally agree that you need to run with additional headroom.
(But in that case, it's debatable if the AP2496 is the right card for
live recording).

Why not for live recording? Any device has its overload level. It
makes no difference what the AP's is in absolute terms - only in
relation to its noise floor. And that figure is a good one.

CubaseFAQ page www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm

"Clive Backham" wrote in message


I typically set up for -3dB on what I think are the loudest sections,
and have yet to see an unexpected peak blow the headroom.

My level set technique is 3 dB below the loudest signal from a trackability
test record.

But recording LPs gives you the ability to set up levels at leisure.

Well, if at first you don't succeed...

If you're into live recording you don't have that luxury, and in that
case I totally agree that you need to run with additional headroom.

(But in that case, it's debatable if the AP2496 is the right card for
live recording).

I don't see why that would have to be true, given that you set levels
accordingly.

However, an argument can be constructed saying that since most mic pres and
consoles are optimized for +4, setting levels to more like -10 gives up some
of the SNR potential of the electronics driving the AP2496.

Then, whether its a problem or not is determined by the performance of the
equipment driving it. If it was a problem, a simple 10 dB attenuator would
make up the difference. However, I'm finding that attenuators, and knowledge
of how and when to use them is not all that common. Better to use equipment
optimized for the purpose at hand.

....and that's why I say that the AP2496 is not really an optimum choice for
audio production. But for old, experienced hands it shouldn't be a problem.

Clive Backham wrote:

Is the AP2496 a low-end semipro card (in which case the input is too
sensitive), or is it a high-end consumer card (in which case the input
is not sensitive enough)? Have M-Audio achieved the dubious
distinction of failing to satisfy *anyone* in this respect?

We use Audiophile 2496 cards here and we're pretty happy with them.
They're reliable, have fine specs and sound good. The only thing they
lack is 24/192 KS/s output -- we use the very low cost Revolution 7.1 card
for that.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

In rec.audio.tech Clive Backham wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:44:52 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:58:36 -0700, Garry wrote:
I haven't been too happy with my M-Audio A-Phile 2496. As mentioned,
the input is VERY hot and not adjustable which is a pain in the ass.
Plus the midi adapter cable died right away (they replaced it), and
the manual does little to explain the odd mixer controls.

Yes, it's a sensitive input. You can attenuate the signal you send it
with a cheap passive device. If it was less sensitive, low-output
devices, directly connected, could never drive it fully, resulting in
a low s/n ratio.

It's interesting to see this point of view, because there are a great
number of people out there who think the AP2496 input is not sensitive
enough! A typical tape feed from a consumer receiver isn't hot enough
to get full scale levels into this card.

Yeah, I was kind of shaking my head reading this thread, because that's
been my experience (and I think I even wrote you about it).
using the RCA-type inputs of an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 card, for
transferring cassette recordings and LPs to my hard drive.
I ended up getting a small DJ-style outboard preamp/mixer
to let me conveniently boost the signal as needed before it
goes to the 2496.




--


-S.