The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do believe the
AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam brings a quality to
solo instruments and voices that the AMC does not. But when things get
busy, the consensus was the Arcam just lacks rythym. Muckie was a term oft
mentioned. The thing don't boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I think
I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a homebrew
Soundlabs Sallie.

ScottW

"ScottW" wrote in message
news:tMS_c.75164$yh.53904@fed1read05
The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do
believe the AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam
brings a quality to solo instruments and voices that the AMC does
not. But when things get busy, the consensus was the Arcam just
lacks rythym. Muckie was a term oft mentioned. The thing don't
boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I
think I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a
homebrew Soundlabs Sallie.

Yet another lame wasted attempt to make vinyl and tubes seem relevant in the
21st century. I'm suprised that you guys didn't ride to your little party on
horses.

"ScottW" said:

The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do believe the
AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam brings a quality to
solo instruments and voices that the AMC does not. But when things get
busy, the consensus was the Arcam just lacks rythym. Muckie was a term oft
mentioned. The thing don't boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

Wait until you have bottles in your amp :-)

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I think
I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a homebrew
Soundlabs Sallie.

Build a room. Enjoy the music!

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:16:47 +0100, The Devil wrote:

I throw my hands in the air. :-)

And wave 'em like you just don't care!
Yo!... Yo!
Yo!... Yo!

In article z,
The Devil wrote:

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 22:40:47 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do believe the
AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam brings a quality to
solo instruments and voices that the AMC does not. But when things get
busy, the consensus was the Arcam just lacks rythym. Muckie was a term oft
mentioned. The thing don't boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I think
I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a homebrew
Soundlabs Sallie.

I throw my hands in the air. :-) You'd probably like the CD72 better.
Seriously.

The CD73 is said to be much better, FWIW. Of course, so is the CD92.
"Muckie" has never sprung to mind hearing my FMJ. Indeed, the FMJ has
made it possible to hear busy stuff like big orchestras and Al Bowlly. I
have a theory about "lacking rhythm" but I would want to know more about
the listening session.

I have an AMC 8B and an Arcam CD23, so I can make a similar comparison.
Scott, what did you guys listen to?

Stephen

The Devil said:

I have an AMC 8B and an Arcam CD23, so I can make a similar comparison.
Scott, what did you guys listen to?

I'm curious as to what the outcome is.

Something else that may be useful. Scott's experience is so unexpected
it's kinda bugging me now. I took apart my passive controller and
there's a 50K pot in there. I could have sworn I'd used a 10K. I would
be *really* surprised if that made a difference, but I don't suppose
it could hurt trying a higher value pot and seeing what happens. With
a ~47K amp input impedance, however, he wouldn't have a smooth range
of volume control.

A valve preamp with at least a 50 kohm POTENTIOMETER (satisfied,
Arnold?), like I've said from the beginning.

Next step: Sell the Krell (good subject line!) and get a pair of
triode amps.
Never liked Krell anyway, they're too clunky.

Mucky is the last word that springs to mind about any of the RingDAC
players.

I'll dig up the schems for the CD9 if I can, maybe there's something
to be bettered in the analog output section.
IIRC, Arcam used a nice power supply array, but not-so-SOTA opamps.

Kind of terrible anyway, only +/- 15 volts supply voltage.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

The Devil said:

I throw my hands in the air. :-)

And wave 'em like you just don't care!
Yo!... Yo!
Yo!... Yo!

That's exactly it!

La la la la!

MC Krueger hosting RAO tonight
Nothing gets by without a fight
Showing signs of stage fright
Maybe one day he'll see the light

Valves are where it's at
Vinyl groovin' now there's a start
Yeah it's 33 and a third
best friggin' sound you've ever heard!


Oh Yeah! Groove on, dude!
Groove on Yo!

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article z,
The Devil wrote:

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 22:40:47 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do believe
the
AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam brings a quality
to
solo instruments and voices that the AMC does not. But when things get
busy, the consensus was the Arcam just lacks rythym. Muckie was a term
oft
mentioned. The thing don't boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I
think
I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a homebrew
Soundlabs Sallie.

I throw my hands in the air. :-) You'd probably like the CD72 better.
Seriously.

The CD73 is said to be much better, FWIW. Of course, so is the CD92.
"Muckie" has never sprung to mind hearing my FMJ. Indeed, the FMJ has
made it possible to hear busy stuff like big orchestras and Al Bowlly. I
have a theory about "lacking rhythm" but I would want to know more about
the listening session.

I have an AMC 8B and an Arcam CD23, so I can make a similar comparison.
Scott, what did you guys listen to?

Derek Trucks Band Joyful Noise and Little Feat Kickin it at the Barn. I
listened to all my old Crimson remasters, Islands, Wake of Poseidon, Lizard.

What are you running it into? A passive or an active preamp?

ScottW

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:atpoj05ehgjluf8e5jra4naq5560ufef5i@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 13:15:37 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

The CD73 is said to be much better, FWIW. Of course, so is the CD92.
"Muckie" has never sprung to mind hearing my FMJ. Indeed, the FMJ has
made it possible to hear busy stuff like big orchestras and Al Bowlly. I
have a theory about "lacking rhythm" but I would want to know more about
the listening session.

I have an AMC 8B and an Arcam CD23, so I can make a similar comparison.
Scott, what did you guys listen to?

Something else that may be useful. Scott's experience is so unexpected
it's kinda bugging me now. I took apart my passive controller and
there's a 50K pot in there. I could have sworn I'd used a 10K. I would
be *really* surprised if that made a difference, but I don't suppose
it could hurt trying a higher value pot and seeing what happens. With
a ~47K amp input impedance, however, he wouldn't have a smooth range
of volume control.

I upped it 5k and it did make a bit o' difference. Not 100% for the
better. I've got an old Yamaha M-50 amp that I need to repair. Its got
attenuators. Maybe I'll try it. That my give me a chance to get even
muckier witht Legacy bass section.

Mucky is the last word that springs to mind about any of the RingDAC
players.

Certain types of muck are quite good, ask Arny.

ScottW

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:d3soj056ffbnmb1nvlf9qfp5jg9at3qbga@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 16:06:09 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:

A valve preamp with at least a 50 kohm POTENTIOMETER (satisfied,
Arnold?), like I've said from the beginning.

Next step: Sell the Krell (good subject line!) and get a pair of
triode amps.
Never liked Krell anyway, they're too clunky.

I've never liked Krell either. Scott is of the all-SS-amps-that-ain't-
broken-sound-pretty-much-the-same viewpoint, so I didn't think it
worth mentioning (and I'm sure he's already aware of it anyway) that
one of the commonest complaints about Krell is their stridency.

I thought that was a common complaint amongst you tubers about all SS amps?

I
think a move to a good amp that uses triode KT88s will be the best
thing he can do for his system. I think the CD92 will then be able to
do all the great stuff for which it is famed.

I think a tube preamp is a better bet. But I think the Citation 2 has
triode mode option.

ScottW

"ScottW" said:

I think a tube preamp is a better bet. But I think the Citation 2 has
triode mode option.

It could be modified that way, but watch the max. voltage and
dissipation for g2.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

In article VX7%c.77414$yh.77401@fed1read05,
"ScottW" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article z,
The Devil wrote:

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 22:40:47 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

The winner is........a 20+ year old Mitsubishi LT-30. But I do believe
the
AMC took second on points. I still think the Arcam brings a quality
to
solo instruments and voices that the AMC does not. But when things get
busy, the consensus was the Arcam just lacks rythym. Muckie was a term
oft
mentioned. The thing don't boogie, it can't dance, it just sings.

I get to try a Citation 1 and 2 so perhaps there is hope yet. If that
works out, I'll again be exploring suitable new carts. Meantime, I
think
I'll turn my attention to room treatments. Something like a homebrew
Soundlabs Sallie.

I throw my hands in the air. :-) You'd probably like the CD72 better.
Seriously.

The CD73 is said to be much better, FWIW. Of course, so is the CD92.
"Muckie" has never sprung to mind hearing my FMJ. Indeed, the FMJ has
made it possible to hear busy stuff like big orchestras and Al Bowlly. I
have a theory about "lacking rhythm" but I would want to know more about
the listening session.

I have an AMC 8B and an Arcam CD23, so I can make a similar comparison.
Scott, what did you guys listen to?

Derek Trucks Band Joyful Noise and Little Feat Kickin it at the Barn. I
listened to all my old Crimson remasters, Islands, Wake of Poseidon, Lizard.

That's good: I have the remastered 'hits' collection. I'll give it a
listen today.

What are you running it into? A passive or an active preamp?

NAD C340 integrated.

Stephen

MINe 109 said:

NAD C340 integrated.

Not coming apart yet? :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

MINe 109 said:

NAD C340 integrated.

Not coming apart yet? :-)

The buttons are flying like popcorn and the solder is melting like cake
icing in the rain...

But it sounds great!

Stephen

In article z,
The Devil wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:11:02 +0100, The Devil wrote:

And it sounds like a couple of cats making out in the moonlight. The
female might be singing in kitty language 'Barbed Love Makes my Eyes
Water'. I'm sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Goodnight.

Would be worse if you did know what cat love was like!

I mean day.

Attempt to confuse day for night noted. :-)

Stephen

The Devil wrote in message news:g42rj0lrqdp1qjrpobsurol0fk5cve6lhp@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:24:09 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

think a move to a good amp that uses triode KT88s will be the best
thing he can do for his system. I think the CD92 will then be able to
do all the great stuff for which it is famed.

I think a tube preamp is a better bet. But I think the Citation 2 has
triode mode option.

I think you should at least give the Citations a listen.

Oh absolutely. I will have so many options to explore, it may take years.

ScottW

In article z,
The Devil wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:57:49 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:11:02 +0100, The Devil wrote:

And it sounds like a couple of cats making out in the moonlight. The
female might be singing in kitty language 'Barbed Love Makes my Eyes
Water'. I'm sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Goodnight.

Would be worse if you did know what cat love was like!

I mean day.

Attempt to confuse day for night noted. :-)

Its like a man with rainbows didnt say llook, cake, over there
Stephene or watever you call yourself, today, and you'll never want to
play with the girls again when I am younger, about sixteen. The good
news is never hadn't.

Just finished some casual Arcam vs AMC listening. The disc used was the
EG remaster "Compact King Crimson". Not scientific, but I took the
trouble to move a cd player from one room to another.

I started by sampling the tracks on the bedroom system: Pioner 563, Linn
Kabers. While there were some pleasant bits to this, it was typical
midfi, harsh treble being the worst offender, contributing to a
fatiguing sound.

After a break, the disc and I returned to the Arcam/Quad system. The
heavens opened and the recorded thoughts of Robert Fripp implanted
themselves directly onto my consciousness. I tried to concentrate on the
earlier tracks because that seems to be what Scott would like best on
the collection. There was a sense of compression (peak limiting) to the
early eighties stuff that I assumed part of the recording. The opening
to "Heartbeat" was striking for its big reverberant soundstage. What
the Pioneer universal player presented as cardboard and pie tins was
revealed as a drum kit. The high-pitched backbeat'chirps' in "Hearbeat"
were in their proper place.

Putting my AMC in the big system was a surprise as it sounded
immediately different. The top seemed closed in, but the biggest
difference was a warm mid-bass. The treble had unexpected peaks: I'll
not want to hear "20th Century Schizoid Man" on this system again. My
sense was one of compression, almost like the cliche of lp sound: warm
bass, inner 'detail', dullish sound.

I found the AMC to be relatively 'murky' in accompanying chord
instruments in the early recordings. I could hear individual pitches in
"Schizoid Man" and "Epitaph" on the Arcam, but not so clearly on the
AMC.

It's too bad I don't have the same players as Scott. I doubt that AMC
has a house sound as such, while I would guess that the CD23 would
resemble the 92, only better. I can't guess why my impressions were so
opposite Scott's. I wonder if the AMC 9 is a much better player than my
8b. I suppose I could try the AMC balanced output with a passive volume
control running the NAD amp section, but I'd have to be even more bored
and with more time on my hands to do actually do it.

Enjoy,

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...

It's too bad I don't have the same players as Scott. I doubt that AMC
has a house sound as such, while I would guess that the CD23 would
resemble the 92, only better. I can't guess why my impressions were so
opposite Scott's. I wonder if the AMC 9 is a much better player than my
8b.

Its much less expensive. It is also a completely different dac. The 8b is
24 bit/96 khz delta-sigma while the 9 is 18 bit MASH. Ok DAC guru's, who
wants to explain what this means in terms of design and sound differences.

I suppose I could try the AMC balanced output with a passive volume
control running the NAD amp section, but I'd have to be even more bored
and with more time on my hands to do actually do it.

I was listening some more last night, Genesis Nursery Cryme... and I would
have to decribe the Arcam as sounding bloated. I'm convinced it doesn't like
the passive load. Yet the subtle texture detail it offers is diminished
through my preamp. I wish I had a 50K passive attenuator. Hey, devil
WAKEUP..... what pot did you say you used? That might be a simple fix.

ScottW

In article prr%c.77788$yh.73362@fed1read05,
"ScottW" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...

It's too bad I don't have the same players as Scott. I doubt that AMC
has a house sound as such, while I would guess that the CD23 would
resemble the 92, only better. I can't guess why my impressions were so
opposite Scott's. I wonder if the AMC 9 is a much better player than my
8b.

Its much less expensive. It is also a completely different dac. The 8b is
24 bit/96 khz delta-sigma while the 9 is 18 bit MASH. Ok DAC guru's, who
wants to explain what this means in terms of design and sound differences.

The RingDAC is, what, five bits?

I suppose I could try the AMC balanced output with a passive volume
control running the NAD amp section, but I'd have to be even more bored
and with more time on my hands to do actually do it.

I was listening some more last night, Genesis Nursery Cryme... and I would
have to decribe the Arcam as sounding bloated. I'm convinced it doesn't like
the passive load. Yet the subtle texture detail it offers is diminished
through my preamp.

It must be the passive. If anything, my Arcam sounds thinner compared
the AMC despite the deeper bass and airier top. I'd never say 'bloated'.

I wish I had a 50K passive attenuator. Hey, devil
WAKEUP..... what pot did you say you used? That might be a simple fix.

I wonder what the input impedance is for the NHT Pro PVC.

Stephen

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:41:53 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

MINe 109 said:

NAD C340 integrated.

Not coming apart yet? :-)

The buttons are flying like popcorn and the solder is melting like cake
icing in the rain...


Is there any point me opening mine when it arrives? Or should I just
put it straight in the dumster? (sniff)

(paul packer) said:

Is there any point me opening mine when it arrives? Or should I just
put it straight in the dumster? (sniff)

Oh dear. Just check the PCB for badsolder joints, and you'll be fine.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

The Devil said:

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:25:07 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

I was listening some more last night, Genesis Nursery Cryme... and I would
have to decribe the Arcam as sounding bloated. I'm convinced it doesn't like
the passive load. Yet the subtle texture detail it offers is diminished
through my preamp. I wish I had a 50K passive attenuator. Hey, devil
WAKEUP..... what pot did you say you used? That might be a simple fix.

Scott, e-mail me your snail mail address and I'll send you an ALPS BB
50 k.

Alps Black Beauty. I've also used Noble with no problems. I love the
mechanical action of the Black Beauty. It has a touch of the
disciplinarian about it which, taken with the mass of my spun brass
volume knob, lends a certain sexual undertone to my volume-changing
transactions.

Indeed. Did you ever own a Radford SC22?
I still remember the feeling of that volume pot.....WOW :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:41:53 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

MINe 109 said:

NAD C340 integrated.

Not coming apart yet? :-)

The buttons are flying like popcorn and the solder is melting like cake
icing in the rain...


Is there any point me opening mine when it arrives? Or should I just
put it straight in the dumster? (sniff)

It'll be fine! Best $250 I've spent for a long while.

Stephen

The Devil said:

One is stimulated by a good volume control, you will note. I'm kinda
torn on the relay attenuator because I'm willing to bet my work will
be cut out obtaining a rotary encoder that has a nice action. Maybe I
could fill it with oil and fine grit. Or maybe use an A/D convertor
and a single-gang Alps to potentially divide a voltage reference. :-)

http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com...293 73,529374

The 600 series has the same feel as a BB Alps.
Nice specs as well.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Of course. Hopefully the OP will heed that I was only joking. The
aesthetics of NAD seem to be a love/hate type thing, but the amps
sound absolutely fine.

--
td

The OP heeds that you were only joking and is just having a bit of
fun. In fact this amp has a good enough reputation not to be much
impeached by anything said here, though I was surprised it has such a
poor reliability reputation. Giving that it works out of the box and
continues to do so, I may post impressions.

The Devil said:

You'll be getting more pictures in your inbox!

Nude amp piccies! Yummie :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"The Devil" wrote in message
newsqgtj09ch95qdpn9te97676cvq0p6067r6@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:25:07 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

I was listening some more last night, Genesis Nursery Cryme... and I
would
have to decribe the Arcam as sounding bloated. I'm convinced it doesn't
like
the passive load. Yet the subtle texture detail it offers is diminished
through my preamp. I wish I had a 50K passive attenuator. Hey, devil
WAKEUP..... what pot did you say you used? That might be a simple fix.

Alps Black Beauty. I've also used Noble with no problems. I love the
mechanical action of the Black Beauty. It has a touch of the
disciplinarian about it which, taken with the mass of my spun brass
volume knob, lends a certain sexual undertone to my volume-changing
transactions.


How about 1 of these?

http://www.partsconnexion.com/econne...02/eflash.html

ScottW

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:7p2uj01fmeksqqsk2r5c2ju2a6if20im74@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:04:40 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:

http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com...293 73,529374

The 600 series has the same feel as a BB Alps.
Nice specs as well.

Wonderful, thank you. And 128 pulses per revolution! Perfect!
Bookmarked. I'm eager to build Pat's preamp now. I won't have free
time until the first months of next year, but build one I will. You'll
be getting more pictures in your inbox!

Here's an e-bay story for you.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...4&page=1&pp=25


ScottW

The Devil wrote in message news:v9a0k0p2e9h0jck8pcgonql7iaaib0vhbo@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:44:30 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

Here's an e-bay story for you.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...4&page=1&pp=25

Hmmm. Got about half way through but I think I'm getting the picture.
This sort of conning is quite common in the stories I hear about ebay.
I'm sure if I'd set up an account I would have been able to buy
'genuine' Black Gates for half their usual cost, etc. etc. No thanks!

My Alps pots have cast metal bodies. But of course, they're the real
thing, and they weren't '$6 bargains'.

Did you get to the end where they turned out to be stepped
attenuators, not pots at all? I never figured out if they were
stereo, didn't look like it. Probably not a bad deal, just not what
the guy thought he was getting.

ScottW