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#1
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Q for Scott.
The Devil wrote in message news:v6o8j05nm0bfk70jnb2666al6hk1oaspja@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
Well? well? *welllll?* Are you with RingDAC yet? Don't keep me in suspenders! Don't you have tubes to swap? Be calm and I'll check. ....... Well, what do you know. The wife says a box just arrived. Now if I can survive the commute home I'll let you know. This first week of schools open just wreaks havoc on our traffic. And I got a freaking tax ticket this morning. You know, the kind that aren't intended to improve traffic safety, just provide revenue. ****es me off. Taxation without representation. Well they're gonna have to earn it in court. I will not give up without a fight - I am gonna appeal this rolling stop travesty all the way to the supreme court. ScottW |
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#2
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"The Devil" wrote in message news:hbr9j091fq3hu377qc4vfis8l1tbgs350o@rdmzrnewst xt.nz... On 31 Aug 2004 14:25:25 -0700, (ScottW) wrote: Don't you have tubes to swap? Not any more. Although I might have some GEC KT88s coming my way, if my dealer can find some. They're going to be beautifully expensive, totally overpriced, utterly unworth every penny. Feels good throwing away money on **** Krooger hates. Be calm and I'll check. ...... Well, what do you know. The wife says a box just arrived. Drop work, go home now! Race there. I'll pick up any speeding tickets. Go, go, go! Now if I can survive the commute home I'll let you know. Oh damn, you're so ... conservative. Speaking of conservatives... you hear any interviews of the protestors in NY? These clowns are the best thing to ever happen to the Repubs. They're making the Dems appear to be the party of the homeless misfits, malcontents, crackheads and retards. Ok, I been listening to this thing for an 2+ hour. Compared to the stands and filters, this change is subtle. Very subtle. So far I think there seems to be a bit more depth and texture that wasn't there, bass has a slightly more revealing clarity to it. Cymbals, bells etc. aren't any better, maybe slightly improved image but I've got this thing more dialed in than ever so I'm stunned by the imaging everytime I turn it on. I'm listening to Genesis Selling England (Definitive Edition Remaster) and occasionally an instrument seems to step forward more so than I perceived before. But female vocals have an edge that the CD9 did not have and while it gives an impression of presence I can't say it always adds to the musicality. For example, the admittedly crappy CD of Hounds of Love is a mixed bag. Running up that Hill, Hounds of Love and especially Big Sky has Kate sounding like nails on chalkboard. But Mother Stands for Comfort and Cloudbursting sound great, especially those strings. Dream of Sheep then pierces my eardrum with a redhot needle and spends the rest of the song convincing my heart it was worth it. Could it be this is a better source for a tube amp that might take that edge off? Or maybe I've just been listening to too much vinyl lately (which is true, although I haven't listened to anything but CDs since the folks left Sunday so I would be familiar.) ScottW |
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#3
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Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
The Devil said: I suggest you stick with it for a few days and then go back to your previous player. Often going back a step will tell you how much you've gained. Might I suggest an ABX test? ;-) I actually could. Maybe I'll make Art and Marc take it. I'm biased and sighted. Something isn't right here. There definitely shouldn't be an edge to the sound. The upper registers should be smooth and totally non-fatiguing - the greatest strength, in fact, of the player. Was the Quad modification done right? They did come forward a bit. My ohm meter is busted - I think the kid fried it (thats my story and I'm sticking to it.) Anyway, since the resistors were in bad shape I had to replace 'em and Radio Shack (being my only source on weekends) actually had 1 ohm 10W power resistors in stock, 10%. So I rigged 1 into 2 in parallel to come up with 1.5 . But my only other meter is a cheapo single decimal and it keep flaking out reading anywhere from .5 to 2.2 ohms. I kind of felt like they are probably coming in around the 1.2 or 1.3 range. Also, the new caps 220 while there was 228 in the circuit. Anyway if the resistors are low, could that open up the highs a bit much? Im gonna borrow a meter from work and check em anyway. I'm not sure what to suggest. I can only think that something is either wrong with the player or the amp you're using is for some reason not a good match for the CD92. Players working fine, maybe I was preconditioned by review I read which called the player a bit shouty. And I don't want to overstate what I heard, its only some passages on songs that I am very acclimated to the vinyl versions I have. After I posted, I noted that Tori Amos Little Earthquakes sounded great. Perhpas Im just dealing with a player revealing some bad recordings. Maybe give one of fArt's triode (now now) amps a go and see if they're able to realise the performance of the RingDAC. Scott, try a 10 kohm resistor in series with each channel at the CD input of your amp. What's the value of your passive pot? In general, I wouldn't advice to go lower than 50 kOhm for a standard CD output load. I don't know, its an Adcom SLC I picked up for nothing and I can't find any specs. ScottW |
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#4
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"ScottW" wrote in message m... Sander deWaal wrote in message . .. Might I suggest an ABX test? ;-) I actually could. Maybe I'll make Art and Marc take it. I'm biased and sighted. I'll bring my 2 second sound snippets of castenets. LP and cd. |
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#6
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"ScottW" wrote in message news  NbZc.65641$yh.11522@fed1read05..."The Devil" wrote in message news:hbr9j091fq3hu377qc4vfis8l1tbgs350o@rdmzrnewst xt.nz... On 31 Aug 2004 14:25:25 -0700, (ScottW) wrote: Don't you have tubes to swap? Not any more. Although I might have some GEC KT88s coming my way, if my dealer can find some. They're going to be beautifully expensive, totally overpriced, utterly unworth every penny. Feels good throwing away money on **** Krooger hates. Be calm and I'll check. ...... Well, what do you know. The wife says a box just arrived. Drop work, go home now! Race there. I'll pick up any speeding tickets. Go, go, go! Now if I can survive the commute home I'll let you know. Oh damn, you're so ... conservative. Speaking of conservatives... you hear any interviews of the protestors in NY? These clowns are the best thing to ever happen to the Repubs. They're making the Dems appear to be the party of the homeless misfits, malcontents, crackheads and retards. **Heheh. Except for the homeless part, you just described Dubya. Of course, without daddy's money and connections, Dubya would be dead. Or lying in some unmarked grave in Vietnam. If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
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#7
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Paul Dormer wrote:
"Trevor Wilson" emitted : If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. Did you see the campaign video the Republican party projected in NYC the other night?? I laughed and I laughed.. until I realised the audience were actually buying into this ****.. the cheesy music.. the warmongering, propaganda-laden jingoistic imagery. This is scary. Bush is the plague.. the black death... [I'm afraid of Americans..] LOL ! And imagine what it would be if GB wasn't part of the "coalition". |
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#8
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" emitted : If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. Did you see the campaign video the Republican party projected in NYC the other night?? I laughed and I laughed.. until I realised the audience were actually buying into this ****.. the cheesy music.. the warmongering, propaganda-laden jingoistic imagery. This is scary. **Indeed. Very, very scary. It is scary that our own PM sucks this crap up. Whilst I detest our PM, he is an intelligent man. Dubya is, of course, a moron. Bush is the plague.. the black death... **Yep. [I'm afraid of Americans..] **No need. Most Americans are OK. It's the ones who support Bush that you need to be frightened of. They're dumber than Bush. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
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#9
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"The Devil" wrote in message news:sklcj0tn2rfbirti7umfes13h6oo1rt1b6@rdmzrnewst xt.nz... On 1 Sep 2004 12:53:36 -0700, (ScottW) wrote: They did come forward a bit. My ohm meter is busted - I think the kid fried it (thats my story and I'm sticking to it.) Anyway, since the resistors were in bad shape I had to replace 'em and Radio Shack (being my only source on weekends) actually had 1 ohm 10W power resistors in stock, 10%. So I rigged 1 into 2 in parallel to come up with 1.5 . But my only other meter is a cheapo single decimal and it keep flaking out reading anywhere from .5 to 2.2 ohms. I kind of felt like they are probably coming in around the 1.2 or 1.3 range. Also, the new caps 220 while there was 228 in the circuit. Anyway if the resistors are low, could that open up the highs a bit much? Im gonna borrow a meter from work and check em anyway. No. It will only have effect in the bass registers. 228uF is within the 5 per cent tolerance of the original input capacitor, so should be OK. Ideally, the circuit should have 220uF in there. I'm not sure what to suggest. I can only think that something is either wrong with the player or the amp you're using is for some reason not a good match for the CD92. Players working fine, maybe I was preconditioned by review I read which called the player a bit shouty. And I don't want to overstate what I heard, its only some passages on songs that I am very acclimated to the vinyl versions I have. After I posted, I noted that Tori Amos Little Earthquakes sounded great. Perhpas Im just dealing with a player revealing some bad recordings. Quite possibly, but I have to say, I only have a handful of recordings that sound so bad I can't listen to them. Let me listen to some more stuff. I never said that HofL cd was all that listenable on the CD9 (other than I like the music and sometimes her voice can be so sweet, I fell in love with Kate when listening to just her few lines on Gabriels Don't Give Up.) BTW, I caught part of Gabriel Live in Milan, Growing Up concert last night. Wow, what an awesome show. I had to order the DVD today. Now I need to fix my TV connections on my surround system when something good actually comes down that wire. I never ran digital from the cable box to the receiver, just stereo analog and then prologic into surround. It still sounded pretty good. Got me thinking that if I get another Amp I can biamp the quads with the woofer section on the Legacy's....... Yeah, Yeah, I heard... B6 assisted is crap  One of the strengths of the RingDAC players is that recordings with a really strident top end don't sound so objectionable, just as many 'bad' recordings actually don't sound so bad on Quads as they do on dynamic speakers. Maybe give one of fArt's triode (now now) Actually, that was an accident, although I do like the result. :-) Amps I have used which have not exhibited the effects you're describing include Rotel RB-1070, RB-1080, and RB-1090, Rotel RA-931 integrated, and Chord SPM-1200. And of course the KT88 amps. Stephen has mentioned here that he is using a $400 NAD integrated with filter- modded Quads and a CD23 without problems. So I think fingers are pointing to your amp as the culprit. Perhaps the amp has an aggressive treble which the Quads are now serving to you without mercy? It a KSA 150. Im in the SS amps mostly sound the same unless there's something wrong. It replaced a Yamaha M-50 (which has since lost control of its protection circuits in storage) but it didn't sound any different on my Legacy's which I think may be a tougher load and significantly more etched sounding and revealing of a screetchy amp than the Quads. Maybe you should check out a CD9 for a truly laid back CD player ScottW |
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#10
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... "ScottW" wrote in message news NbZc.65641$yh.11522@fed1read05..."The Devil" wrote in message news:hbr9j091fq3hu377qc4vfis8l1tbgs350o@rdmzrnewst xt.nz... On 31 Aug 2004 14:25:25 -0700, (ScottW) wrote: Don't you have tubes to swap? Not any more. Although I might have some GEC KT88s coming my way, if my dealer can find some. They're going to be beautifully expensive, totally overpriced, utterly unworth every penny. Feels good throwing away money on **** Krooger hates. Be calm and I'll check. ...... Well, what do you know. The wife says a box just arrived. Drop work, go home now! Race there. I'll pick up any speeding tickets. Go, go, go! Now if I can survive the commute home I'll let you know. Oh damn, you're so ... conservative. Speaking of conservatives... you hear any interviews of the protestors in NY? These clowns are the best thing to ever happen to the Repubs. They're making the Dems appear to be the party of the homeless misfits, malcontents, crackheads and retards. **Heheh. Except for the homeless part, you just described Dubya. Of course, without daddy's money and connections, Dubya would be dead. Or lying in some unmarked grave in Vietnam. If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. Funny how the Republican supporters pretty much stayed away from the democratic convention and let 'em do their thing. But the lunatic left has to come out to the republican show and drag an innocent motorcycle cop off his bike and beat him senselessly into the hospital.... all for telling them they had to keep their unlicensed protest gathering on one side of the street. ScottW |
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#11
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" emitted : If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. Did you see the campaign video the Republican party projected in NYC the other night?? I laughed and I laughed.. until I realised the audience were actually buying into this ****.. the cheesy music.. the warmongering, propaganda-laden jingoistic imagery. This is scary. Bush is the plague.. the black death... [I'm afraid of Americans..] Guess you didn't see the pre Kerry speech video. Hollywood has taken over and that scares us all. ScottW |
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#12
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In article qKvZc.67943$yh.20690@fed1read05,
"ScottW" wrote: I never said that HofL cd was all that listenable on the CD9 (other than I like the music and sometimes her voice can be so sweet, I fell in love with Kate when listening to just her few lines on Gabriels Don't Give Up.) I used those very same lines as a reference. Playing it on the CD23 was the first time her voice didn't sound like a breathless rasp. Stephen |
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#14
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"MINe 109" wrote in message ... In article qKvZc.67943$yh.20690@fed1read05, "ScottW" wrote: I never said that HofL cd was all that listenable on the CD9 (other than I like the music and sometimes her voice can be so sweet, I fell in love with Kate when listening to just her few lines on Gabriels Don't Give Up.) I used those very same lines as a reference. Playing it on the CD23 was the first time her voice didn't sound like a breathless rasp. It's not as piercing as Big Sky. I thinks its just the mix. Simply Vinyl version is awesome. ScottW |
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#15
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"ScottW" said:
I dont see what good that will do. The KSA150 is 47k in so the min load is 9.7k, adding 20k to the Krell only brings it to 10.3k and reduces my max levels by about 30%. Seems like a heavy penalty to increase input impedance by 600 ohms. The net effect is raising the load impedance of the player. I've experienced this before. It'll cost you 3 db of gain, but may well sound better. Though any CD player's output is regared to be able to drive low impedances, in some cases they can't do it just right. A higher load value may bring back the good sound. Hey Graham, Sander says Brits put cheesy output drivers in their CD's Not only Brits, but all brands with opamps at the outputs. In fact, Sony even recommends loading their players with over 50 kohms. Whad' ya gotta lose? Just 2 resistors! -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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#16
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The Devil said:
Hmmmmm. The CD23 at my office is driving a 10K Alps pot. I'm not having the problem Scott describes. I'm not saying that this *should* be the problem, just a possibility. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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#17
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The Devil said:
Get Gabriel's Secret World Live DVD. The video quality ain't great, but it's a stonking show. You will be wanting to marry me for making the recommendation. Just don't tell Art. :-) I second that recommendation. It's my favorite concert video. The drummer is simply amazing. Boon |
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#18
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"ScottW" said:
I dont see what good that will do. The KSA150 is 47k in so the min load is 9.7k, adding 20k to the Krell only brings it to 10.3k and reduces my max levels by about 30%. Seems like a heavy penalty to increase input impedance by 600 ohms. Reading this again, I think there's a mixup here. You're not increasing *input impedance* by 600 ohms. When adding 10k or even 22 k in series with the pot * at the input*, meaning the "hot" side of the pot, you're making the load for the CD player lighter. Instead of 10 k or whatever there is in parallel with, the CD output now "sees" 20k or 32 k depending on what value you use. Adding the resistors at the input of the amp has the advantage that cable capacity doesn't matter, where placing them at the CD side *does* matter. I don't know whether this will solve your troubles, but I've experienced situations where the sound benefited from adding the 2 resistors. Dynamics and detailing increased. The extra bonus is that phono and CD will put out about the same voltage, meaning you won't have to play LPs on 12 o'clock and CDs on 9 o'clock anymore. Anyway, Dev noted he uses a 10 K passive pot as well without the problems you mention, so all of this may be moot. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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#19
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Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
"ScottW" said: I dont see what good that will do. The KSA150 is 47k in so the min load is 9.7k, adding 20k to the Krell only brings it to 10.3k and reduces my max levels by about 30%. Seems like a heavy penalty to increase input impedance by 600 ohms. The net effect is raising the load impedance of the player. I've experienced this before. It'll cost you 3 db of gain, but may well sound better. I spaced out, I was thinking you said add resistance to the amp input. But I have another idea. How about adding 5 to 10k on the ground return. I don't lose any top end and still get the load impedance increase, I just can't turn the thing all the way down. When I want quiet for the phone or something I use the pause anyway. Would they make the channel grounds common on a passive? Though any CD player's output is regared to be able to drive low impedances, in some cases they can't do it just right. A higher load value may bring back the good sound. Hey Graham, Sander says Brits put cheesy output drivers in their CD's Not only Brits, but all brands with opamps at the outputs. In fact, Sony even recommends loading their players with over 50 kohms. Whad' ya gotta lose? Just 2 resistors! I listened to Chesky's Test CD last night after measuring the filters. Music tracks sounds really good. The test track of off stage left (left of the left speaker) sound great. The offstage right doesn't sound extreme right but more disembodied like out of phase. They even say it may sound that way but there is clearly a right vs left difference. There isnt a wall on the left while the right side has a wall about 4-5' right of the speaker. I want to fix this. Suggestions? I did a level check of the two channels on the 1k sq wave track (balance left against balance right) and they were dead on. ScottW |
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#20
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The Devil wrote in message news:vvtdj01cgqlvdngbng57aqqh2n9cqdvtvc@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:40:19 -0700, "ScottW" wrote: Let me listen to some more stuff. I never said that HofL cd was all that listenable on the CD9 (other than I like the music and sometimes her voice can be so sweet, I fell in love with Kate when listening to just her few lines on Gabriels Don't Give Up.) BTW, I caught part of Gabriel Live in Milan, Growing Up concert last night. Wow, what an awesome show. I had to order the DVD today. Now I need to fix my TV connections on my surround system when something good actually comes down that wire. I never ran digital from the cable box to the receiver, just stereo analog and then prologic into surround. It still sounded pretty good. Got me thinking that if I get another Amp I can biamp the quads with the woofer section on the Legacy's....... Yeah, Yeah, I heard... B6 assisted is crap Hehe. Get Gabriel's Secret World Live DVD. The video quality ain't great, but it's a stonking show. You will be wanting to marry me for making the recommendation. Just don't tell Art. :-) It a KSA 150. Im in the SS amps mostly sound the same unless there's something wrong. It replaced a Yamaha M-50 (which has since lost control of its protection circuits in storage) but it didn't sound any different on my Legacy's which I think may be a tougher load and significantly more etched sounding and revealing of a screetchy amp than the Quads. Maybe you should check out a CD9 for a truly laid back CD player I tend to agree that expensive SS 'superamps' are a waste of money for Quads. I've posted that opinion here. But I'm at a loss to explain why you're hearing what you're hearing. In your setup, the only thing different to what I've used is the amp, so I can only think that must be the culprit. I think perhaps I overstated my concern. Its real subtle. For example I listened to Harry's Bar last night and it sounds great. There is tiny bit of a rasp to the leading edge of his voice that the I don't think the CD 9 revealed but that could very well be his voice. Dude is gettin old. In any case, you'll be well served to beg, borrow or steal some KT88s running in triode. Quads just love valves. Convince Art to haul his Citation out here. But be quick, he may be about to board the plane. ScottW |
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#21
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The Devil said:
**** Art. (Better not take that literally.) He won't object to that, as long as you don't marry him, note. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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#22
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Subject: Q for Scott.
From:the paranoid personality posting as George M. Middius Date: 9/2/2004 6:08 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: Sander deWaal said: **** Art. (Better not take that literally.) He won't object to that, as long as you don't marry him, note. It's nice how honest Sacky's been lately, telling us all that "the gays" want social acceptance and recognition of being "normal" and his other hangups. The only problem is his mixing up the pronouns -- he keeps saying "they" when another pronoun would clearly be more accurate. So, "George", the problem is that Sacky takes it up the ass, but not from you? ;-) |
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#23
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... (ScottW) said: But I have another idea. How about adding 5 to 10k on the ground return. I don't lose any top end and still get the load impedance increase, I just can't turn the thing all the way down. When I want quiet for the phone or something I use the pause anyway. Would they make the channel grounds common on a passive? You could try, though I think the lowest position will still be too loud. I think 5K would be below the lowest level I listen to, 10 wouldn't. You should use separate resistors for each half of the pot. definitely, I was just wondering if they tied the grounds together in the passive then I tried to put resistance in each return line things could get weird with one channel actually loaded by the other. I listened to Chesky's Test CD last night after measuring the filters. Music tracks sounds really good. The test track of off stage left (left of the left speaker) sound great. The offstage right doesn't sound extreme right but more disembodied like out of phase. They even say it may sound that way but there is clearly a right vs left difference. There isnt a wall on the left while the right side has a wall about 4-5' right of the speaker. I want to fix this. Suggestions? I did a level check of the two channels on the 1k sq wave track (balance left against balance right) and they were dead on. I think your problem may well be acoustical. Try, when The She [tm] isn't home, a different speaker setup, to rule out possible room interactions. She isn't a problem, its my upstairs. I built it. Mine mine mine... She has her garden which the SDUT is coming to take pictures of tomorrow as the best garden in the Vista garden club. I'm so proud of my wife and anyway, I need her help to move the couch, damn thing is heavy. I had the Legacy's on the short wall and (I think) cuz the space immediately behind my listening position wasn't symmetrical I always I always felt that the soundstage got shifted right. Now Im on the short wall which lets me bring the Quads out into the room and still have the surround system setup for the same listening position. I'll live with it if I have to as this setup is really the only option without ditching the guest bed..... but I'd have to cause natural deaths of at least 3 people before I can do that....... I can swap speakers easily enough. Another possibility is to swap the left and right speaker from their place to ensure that there's not a problem with one of them. Perish the thought. There's nothing wrong with my speakers. Are you trying to put a spell on them? They're magic and can't be harmed I'll have u know Ok here's another idea. I was toying with building a diffuser to place directly behind the speakers like that Soundlabs thing they charge way too much money for. I was thinking a 12" dia or larger tube (that would stand with out a base) covered with 3" diffusion panels (make the thing about 18" across) place directly behind to break up the rear wave. What's your take on this? ScottW |
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#24
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"ScottW" said:
You should use separate resistors for each half of the pot. definitely, I was just wondering if they tied the grounds together in the passive then I tried to put resistance in each return line things could get weird with one channel actually loaded by the other. Somewhere the signal ground must be connected to ground, probably at the input side. It's best to just cut the traces to the cold side of the pot and put the resistors there. Don't connect the signal grounds together at the pot. She isn't a problem, its my upstairs. I built it. Mine mine mine... Aiaiai! She has her garden which the SDUT is coming to take pictures of tomorrow as the best garden in the Vista garden club. I'm so proud of my wife and anyway, I need her help to move the couch, damn thing is heavy. I had the Legacy's on the short wall and (I think) cuz the space immediately behind my listening position wasn't symmetrical I always I always felt that the soundstage got shifted right. Now Im on the short wall which lets me bring the Quads out into the room and still have the surround system setup for the same listening position. I'll live with it if I have to as this setup is really the only option without ditching the guest bed..... but I'd have to cause natural deaths of at least 3 people before I can do that....... I can swap speakers easily enough. Yep, I'm fortunate enough to have just one person to satisfy. And my wife loves music too, so she's absolutely OK with whatever I do with speaker placement ;-) Another possibility is to swap the left and right speaker from their place to ensure that there's not a problem with one of them. Perish the thought. There's nothing wrong with my speakers. Are you trying to put a spell on them? They're magic and can't be harmed I'll have u know LOL! But seriously, you could have a mistake with the mod. Happens to the best of us ( i.c. me :-)))))) Ok here's another idea. I was toying with building a diffuser to place directly behind the speakers like that Soundlabs thing they charge way too much money for. I was thinking a 12" dia or larger tube (that would stand with out a base) covered with 3" diffusion panels (make the thing about 18" across) place directly behind to break up the rear wave. What's your take on this? I don't know of absorbers can be made by oneself. I once have seen how they assemble Tube Traps, and there's all kinds of scientifical reasoning behind them. Nevertheless, room treatment is an important factor. Take this up with Marc, Art and the other Scott this weekend , they know your room. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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#25
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Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
"ScottW" said: You should use separate resistors for each half of the pot. definitely, I was just wondering if they tied the grounds together in the passive then I tried to put resistance in each return line things could get weird with one channel actually loaded by the other. Somewhere the signal ground must be connected to ground, probably at the input side. It's best to just cut the traces to the cold side of the pot and put the resistors there. Don't connect the signal grounds together at the pot. I took a peak. Its not that easy to access. If I go this route and the more I listen the less I think I will bother....but I might check it if I can test it easily. Hacking up my passive without drawings isn't. She isn't a problem, its my upstairs. I built it. Mine mine mine... Aiaiai! She has her garden which the SDUT is coming to take pictures of tomorrow as the best garden in the Vista garden club. I'm so proud of my wife and anyway, I need her help to move the couch, damn thing is heavy. I had the Legacy's on the short wall and (I think) cuz the space immediately behind my listening position wasn't symmetrical I always I always felt that the soundstage got shifted right. Now Im on the short wall which lets me bring the Quads out into the room and still have the surround system setup for the same listening position. I'll live with it if I have to as this setup is really the only option without ditching the guest bed..... but I'd have to cause natural deaths of at least 3 people before I can do that....... I can swap speakers easily enough. Yep, I'm fortunate enough to have just one person to satisfy. And my wife loves music too, so she's absolutely OK with whatever I do with speaker placement ;-) We have the occasional guest requiring accomodation or I end up sleeping with the kid. Another possibility is to swap the left and right speaker from their place to ensure that there's not a problem with one of them. Perish the thought. There's nothing wrong with my speakers. Are you trying to put a spell on them? They're magic and can't be harmed I'll have u know LOL! But seriously, you could have a mistake with the mod. Happens to the best of us ( i.c. me :-)))))) Mod is fine. It was really simple. One wire off the binding post, one wire off the filter reattached direct to binding post. Filter resistors are right and very well matched. I swapped filters left to right and back, no change. I was listening to my Crimson CDs last night. 30th Anniversary remasters and at first I was thinking they seemed to lack pace but then the sax and coronet on soft passages was just so fluid and there in space. I hadn't listened to these CDs in months but wow. I was totally blown away how smoothly everything appeared in space with a depth of soundstage that I had never realized before. It was magnificient. The realism and soft hypnotic melody from that coronet was incredible. I'm gonna have to hook up the CD9 and see if it compares. Ok here's another idea. I was toying with building a diffuser to place directly behind the speakers like that Soundlabs thing they charge way too much money for. I was thinking a 12" dia or larger tube (that would stand with out a base) covered with 3" diffusion panels (make the thing about 18" across) place directly behind to break up the rear wave. What's your take on this? I don't know of absorbers can be made by oneself. I once have seen how they assemble Tube Traps, and there's all kinds of scientifical reasoning behind them. I wasn't making traps just using tubes cuz they're cheap and easy to obtain, stand up easy, move easy and if I wrap and glue diffusor panels on them they should be pretty effective. Plus the wife would probably be more receptive to something I stand behind the speakers than mounting on the wall Plus the Quads are a couple feet in frontof the legacy's so their face is really the back wave first reflection. I can't mount diffusors on them. ScottW |
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... "ScottW" said: I dont see what good that will do. The KSA150 is 47k in so the min load is 9.7k, adding 20k to the Krell only brings it to 10.3k and reduces my max levels by about 30%. Seems like a heavy penalty to increase input impedance by 600 ohms. Reading this again, I think there's a mixup here. You're not increasing *input impedance* by 600 ohms. When adding 10k or even 22 k in series with the pot * at the input*, meaning the "hot" side of the pot, you're making the load for the CD player lighter. Instead of 10 k or whatever there is in parallel with, the CD output now "sees" 20k or 32 k depending on what value you use. Adding the resistors at the input of the amp has the advantage that cable capacity doesn't matter, where placing them at the CD side *does* matter. I don't know whether this will solve your troubles, but I've experienced situations where the sound benefited from adding the 2 resistors. Dynamics and detailing increased. The extra bonus is that phono and CD will put out about the same voltage, meaning you won't have to play LPs on 12 o'clock and CDs on 9 o'clock anymore. Anyway, Dev noted he uses a 10 K passive pot as well without the problems you mention, so all of this may be moot. Well, we had an interesting experience tonight. Art was over and we set up both CDs into the passive. He had some Robert Randolph and Derek Truks Band CDs. I hadn't heard either, southern rock with a little funk and prog slant. We setup both the Arcam and the AMC. Art felt the Arcam was more revealing of detail but wasn't particularly musical and lacked rythym and pace. I had similar feeling when I put on Islands last night but rapidly got over it when the soft sounds of a caressed coronet filled the room. Anyway, Art likes a bit of pace and more upbeat music. We then tried to unload the Arcam by connecting the second set of outputs into my active preamp (Yamaha C-70). The C-70 still feeds the passive which has a bypass switch that sets the selected input direct to the output. Apparently other weird things happen on the passives non-selected inputs. It appeared the Arcams other outs were still connected to the pot as the outputs were severely loaded to the point where I couldn't get hardly any volume out of the lines to the active preamp. I have no idea what the passive is doing to the other inputs when selecting one to bypass, for all I know the all get tied together and the pot. It seems weird cuz the active preamp is high impedance inputs. Anyway the obvious things is those outputs are just parallel connections to the same driver. So much for useful for comparing cables. So I disconnect the passive and did the cable swap routine to compare the high impedance active preamp to the loaded passive on the arcam. Art felt the active helped with impact and dynamics. I felt that it did but on soft music like Lizards Lady of the Dancing Water the soundstage lacked depth. Forward was there but the depth was gone. I also felt a slight loss of texture on the wind instruments that I love. Tomorrow, Im gonna get some connectors and rig up a 5k input load. I think 10k will cost me too much level. But if I still have headroom after putting in 5 I'll add more (if 5 makes a difference). Also listened to most of Gabriel Growing up. Howie.... DTS surround sucks. Even the Dolby stereo track (whatever the hell that is ) into the Quads isn't that great, though better than the surround,... nowhere near the detail and texture and depth to my Gabriel on Classic Vinyl. Sorry, I wish it did as the live concert is very cool on my 65" Mitsu Diamond. NP Wake of Poseidon..... Frip is sitting there softly strumming ScottW |
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message ... "ScottW" emitted : If you clowns vote for Dubya again, this planet is finished. Did you see the campaign video the Republican party projected in NYC the other night?? I laughed and I laughed.. until I realised the audience were actually buying into this ****.. the cheesy music.. the warmongering, propaganda-laden jingoistic imagery. This is scary. Bush is the plague.. the black death... [I'm afraid of Americans..] Guess you didn't see the pre Kerry speech video. Hollywood has taken over and that scares us all. I'm not familiar with Kerry. However, Hollywood is preferable to war machines. How about that carefully scripted monologue of Dubya's.. said with a straight face (well.. some smirking). You think he's getting acting lessons? He mentioned god, several times. Does it not bother you that his political agenda is (apparently) driven by religious beliefs? No, not at all. At lease I know what drives him. Why do you fear people of religous faith? ScottW |
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"The Devil" wrote in message news:466jj0hmuk43mlueitio0s40o2umd5230c@rdmzrnewst xt.nz... On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:10:09 -0700, "ScottW" wrote: Well, we had an interesting experience tonight. Art was over and we set up both CDs into the passive. He had some Robert Randolph and Derek Truks Band CDs. I hadn't heard either, southern rock with a little funk and prog slant. We setup both the Arcam and the AMC. Art felt the Arcam was more revealing of detail but wasn't particularly musical and lacked rythym and pace. I had similar feeling when I put on Islands last night but rapidly got over it when the soft sounds of a caressed coronet filled the room. Anyway, Art likes a bit of pace and more upbeat music. We then tried to unload the Arcam by connecting the second set of outputs into my active preamp (Yamaha C-70). The C-70 still feeds the passive which has a bypass switch that sets the selected input direct to the output. Apparently other weird things happen on the passives non-selected inputs. It appeared the Arcams other outs were still connected to the pot as the outputs were severely loaded to the point where I couldn't get hardly any volume out of the lines to the active preamp. I have no idea what the passive is doing to the other inputs when selecting one to bypass, for all I know the all get tied together and the pot. It seems weird cuz the active preamp is high impedance inputs. Anyway the obvious things is those outputs are just parallel connections to the same driver. So much for useful for comparing cables. I think Arcam's intention was that a customer could drive two amplifiers. It was a comment by the owner I'd seen repeated in other owner reviews. Not something I really care about. So I disconnect the passive and did the cable swap routine to compare the high impedance active preamp to the loaded passive on the arcam. Art felt the active helped with impact and dynamics. I felt that it did but on soft music like Lizards Lady of the Dancing Water the soundstage lacked depth. Forward was there but the depth was gone. I also felt a slight loss of texture on the wind instruments that I love. Tomorrow, Im gonna get some connectors and rig up a 5k input load. I think 10k will cost me too much level. But if I still have headroom after putting in 5 I'll add more (if 5 makes a difference). I got my CD92 hooked up at the office last night. No, it isn't as good as the CD23, but it sounds musical, has no trouble with dynamics, and produces a deep and detailed soundstage, if not quite up to the CD23's. Fatigue factor is nil (unlike the CD72). There is no edge to the sound. I honestly think you've either got a duff player or something is wrong with your setup. I don't think I've described it well enough for you to understand and if you don't get it quick I'm gonna give up. They're is just a little edge to leading edges of transients, the start of a voice or most pronounced on the tap of a snare. Then theres the liquidity that seems to slow the pace. But that same liquidity contributes mightily to the revealing texture and depth of image on soft passages. I think you'll just have to get your butt on a plane and come listen for yourself. ScottW |
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"ScottW" said:
Well, we had an interesting experience tonight. Art was over and we set up both CDs into the passive. snip Did Art bring any electronics with him? You should definitely try a tube preamp first. They usually have higher input impedences. Someone mentioned a second hand CJ. that would be a good start. Or else one of the kits that were advised. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... "ScottW" said: Well, we had an interesting experience tonight. Art was over and we set up both CDs into the passive. snip Did Art bring any electronics with him? No. You should definitely try a tube preamp first. They usually have higher input impedences. Someone mentioned a second hand CJ. that would be a good start. Or else one of the kits that were advised. He may loan me a Citation 1 and 2 to check out. I just have to get it shipped here. Nice to have friends with too much stuff ScottW |
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The Devil said:
I think I agree with Sander. Give a valve preamp a go. Why don't you build that 'Pat's Ultimate Preamp' circuit I posted for you? Only a handful of components, and the designer claims awesome dynamics. I'll build one myself when I have some time. At the moment, though, I ain't got time to do anything. But don't forget to use a highish pot at the input, like at least 50 kohm. The circuit had 50uF coupling the output, but you won't need that for driving an amp input (the circuit will also drive high-impedance headphones). Stick a 4.7uF in there instead and it'll take you as low as you can go. Unless of course you want to drive headphones with it. Depends on the impedance of the poweramp. If that's 10 K, I'd settle for 22 uF or more. Still available in MKP 400V. Remember to put a 100K resistor across the output to ground to avoid (de)charging thumps when powering up or down. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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The Devil said:
But don't forget to use a highish pot at the input, like at least 50 kohm. Might as well use 220K or 470K if it's driving a valve grid. High value pots are notorious for bad tracking. To the best of my knowledge, ALPS and Noble don't offer over 100 kohms in their better potmeters. A stepped attenuator might do the trick though. That circuit also doesn't show grid stoppers, which it would be a good idea to use. Of course, especially with valves like ECC88 are they necessary. Put one before the upper half as well, smoe people tend to forget that. Also, put a 1M resistor from the input grid to ground. Just in case the wiper might have a wobbly contact. Good, good. I see you're improving! Depends on the impedance of the poweramp. If that's 10 K, I'd settle for 22 uF or more. If you must. The reactance of 4.7uF is only 1.7K at 20Hz, and 10K is a pretty low input impedance for an amp, ain't it? :-) I'd like to see 0.47uF in there. Plenty to couple to the input of a KT88 amp! If you have such an amp, yes :-) Scott stated that the input impedence of his Krell KSA150 was about 10kohms. Don't forget the phase shift that extend to 200 Hz when the corner freq. is at 20 Hz.. I used to think about this the same way, but the only place where I'd like to see smaller values is at the grids of the powervalves. If the grid caps are too large, blocking may occur. This is especially nasty when global feedback is applied. Still available in MKP 400V. Remember to put a 100K resistor across the output to ground to avoid (de)charging thumps when powering up or down. Agreed. Metoo. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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The Devil said:
You're starting to annoy me now. Would you like to try dueling your Citroen - with its fairy tiptoes suspension - against my mean, manly, killing machine Metro? That reminds me of that hilarious episode of Top Gear where Jeremy drove from Guildford with an AM DB9 to Monte Carlo, and the two other blokes went by Eurorail. The bet was who would be there first........... They are friggin'geniuses. The best TV program I've ever seen, besides Star Trek that is :-) You'll have an advantage. I'm coming down with a cold and feel really frigging ****ty at the moment. My condoleances. Take a CV378 and listen to some Morissey in the morning. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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The Devil said:
Ah, now that would be ideal. I'd like to do something like that. Maybe employ 256 steps with reed relays. There are plenty of cheap radio remote control receivers and transmitters around. It would be a nice solution to put all the front end attenuation and switching on a PCB and then have a pair of outs for whatever preamp circuitry you wanted. Been there, done that. 8 relays per channel, RC5 coded. If you want a schematic, sue me. -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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"The Devil" wrote in message
news:9ubkj05djakea5j57krt6po72het1i9brg@rdmzrnewst xt.nz On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:29:27 +0200, Sander deWaal wrote: Might as well use 220K or 470K if it's driving a valve grid. High value pots are notorious for bad tracking. To the best of my knowledge, ALPS and Noble don't offer over 100 kohms in their better potmeters. Potmeter? If a voltmeter measures volts, then a potmeter must measure pots. Sander, I thought you were off the stuff since the last time you were in jail. What happened? Do they not? Didn't know that. A stepped attenuator might do the trick though. Ah, now that would be ideal. I'd like to do something like that. Maybe employ 256 steps with reed relays. There are plenty of cheap radio remote control receivers and transmitters around. It would be a nice solution to put all the front end attenuation and switching on a PCB and then have a pair of outs for whatever preamp circuitry you wanted. The usual way to do 256 steps with relays involves an up/down counter and some binary decoders. |
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message ... If you have such an amp, yes :-) Scott stated that the input impedence of his Krell KSA150 was about 10kohms. Sorry to confuse... its 47k, I thought I said the CD was seeing about 10k with pot and amp. Anyway I just upped it by 5.5k. Thats about all the volume I want to lose. It does help I think on the that leading edge and loss of pace. I just can't tell if I sac'd some depth to get it. Too much critical listening gives me a headache.... or is that the Drambuie. ScottW |
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"ScottW" said:
Scott stated that the input impedence of his Krell KSA150 was about 10kohms. Sorry to confuse... its 47k, I thought I said the CD was seeing about 10k with pot and amp. Anyway I just upped it by 5.5k. Thats about all the volume I want to lose. It does help I think on the that leading edge and loss of pace. I just can't tell if I sac'd some depth to get it. Too much critical listening gives me a headache.... or is that the Drambuie. And right you are. Well, 47k shouldnt be a problem. Drink a bottle. Enjoy the music! -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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"Arny Krueger" said:
Potmeter? If a voltmeter measures volts, then a potmeter must measure pots. Very good Arny. Now, if Arny votes Republican, and Dubya's IQ is in the 2 digits, how high would Arny's IQ be? Sander, I thought you were off the stuff since the last time you were in jail. What happened? I'm stoned from listening to my system -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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The Devil said:
There are a few truly excellent Next Generation episodes. About half of the complete series is just about watchable. The other half is background TV for a Sunday afternoon. I'm now collecting the Voyager DVD box sets. Can't wait until Seven of Nine comes on the scene. :-) Haven't you seen episodes of "Enterprise" yet? How about Linda Park? :-) -- Sander deWaal "SOA of a KT88? Sufficient." |
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