Paul Dormer wrote:


For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?


--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t








I wish I could, but I haven't heard the amplifiers or the DIY version. I just
am popping to support your efforts to make this NG more audio-relevant. I
intend to do the same.


Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people. I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies, and
above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation whenever
they can.

I have some serious questions to raise about the reported sound of certain
Class A and A/B amplifiers in which I am interested, and perhaps I'll be able
to do so in the absence of the frantic, conditioned reflex-like postings of 2
of RAO's more robotic hatemongers. I assume they'll still be posting their
nonsense of course, but who cares? I won't be reading it or responding it to
it - at least not directly.

Life is good



Bruce J. Richman

Paul Dormer a écrit :
"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :


For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?


I wish I could, but I haven't heard the amplifiers or the DIY version. I just
am popping to support your efforts to make this NG more audio-relevant. I
intend to do the same.


Thanks Bruce. I look forward to those relevant responses..


Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people. I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies, and
above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation whenever
they can.

I have some serious questions to raise about the reported sound of certain
Class A and A/B amplifiers in which I am interested, and perhaps I'll be able
to do so in the absence of the frantic, conditioned reflex-like postings of 2
of RAO's more robotic hatemongers. I assume they'll still be posting their
nonsense of course, but who cares? I won't be reading it or responding it to
it - at least not directly.

Life is good


Both of the posters you refer to are attempting to solicit your
assistance in a professional capacity without remunerating you for
your helpful observations and guidance. Hey, until such time as they
see fit to pay standard rates for the services of a clinical
psychologist... :-)


I just am popping to support your efforts to make this NG more
audio-relevant.

In article ,
Paul Dormer wrote:

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in which
Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier to design
around as it didn't need the expensive component matching of a discrete
amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

Stephen

Paul Dormer wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?


I wish I could, but I haven't heard the amplifiers or the DIY version. I
just
am popping to support your efforts to make this NG more audio-relevant. I
intend to do the same.

Thanks Bruce. I look forward to those relevant responses..

Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people. I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies,
and
above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation whenever
they can.

I have some serious questions to raise about the reported sound of certain
Class A and A/B amplifiers in which I am interested, and perhaps I'll be
able
to do so in the absence of the frantic, conditioned reflex-like postings of
2
of RAO's more robotic hatemongers. I assume they'll still be posting their
nonsense of course, but who cares? I won't be reading it or responding it
to
it - at least not directly.

Life is good

Both of the posters you refer to are attempting to solicit your
assistance in a professional capacity without remunerating you for
your helpful observations and guidance. Hey, until such time as they
see fit to pay standard rates for the services of a clinical
psychologist... :-)


--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t








I think you've hit the nail on the head. Very well put and quite perceptive.

The first, and more obnoxious of the two, is trying to get his government to
pay for a frontal lobotomy. His government has socialized medicine and he hopes
I'll write them a letter testifying to his uncontrollable rage reactions
whenever he sees the names of certain people writing posts on RAO. Otherwise,
he may have to stick his head in a vice and his coworkers to give it a good
squeeze. Fortunately, what comes out will be compatible with his work
environment so this won't be too troubling to his colleagues.

The second poster is risking arrests for forgery and libel. He's hoping to use
an insanity defense. In the US, if you can prove that you couldn't tell the
difference between right and wrong, and in addition, were insane at the time of
the alleged crime, you can temporarily avoid a prison sentence and instead be
committed to a hospital for the criminally insane.

But, as you say, there is no reason I should help them achieve their goals
unless I am reimbursed for rendering professional opinions, in writing, to the
proper authorities.


Bruce J. Richman

Stephen wrote:


In article ,
Paul Dormer wrote:

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in which
Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier to design
around as it didn't need the expensive component matching of a discrete
amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

Stephen







I'm serously considering the purchase of a rather expensive integrated
amplifier, but have wondered if the compromises involved - compared to
separates - are all that serious. For the particular brand involved, the
separates would be at least twice as expensive, offer no power advantages, but
*do* feature Class A operation whereas the integrated runs in A/B. Both their
integrated amplifiers and their power ampliiers regularly get accolades from
many reviewers. The brand is Plinius. Comments are welcome.



Bruce J. Richman

Bruce J. Richman a écrit :

Paul Dormer wrote:



"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :


For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?


I wish I could, but I haven't heard the amplifiers or the DIY version. I

just

am popping to support your efforts to make this NG more audio-relevant. I
intend to do the same.

Thanks Bruce. I look forward to those relevant responses..


Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people. I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies,

and

above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation whenever
they can.

I have some serious questions to raise about the reported sound of certain
Class A and A/B amplifiers in which I am interested, and perhaps I'll be

able

to do so in the absence of the frantic, conditioned reflex-like postings of

2

of RAO's more robotic hatemongers. I assume they'll still be posting their
nonsense of course, but who cares? I won't be reading it or responding it

to

it - at least not directly.

Life is good

Both of the posters you refer to are attempting to solicit your
assistance in a professional capacity without remunerating you for
your helpful observations and guidance. Hey, until such time as they
see fit to pay standard rates for the services of a clinical
psychologist... :-)


--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t









I think you've hit the nail on the head. Very well put and quite perceptive.

The first, and more obnoxious of the two, is trying to get his government to
pay for a frontal lobotomy. His government has socialized medicine and he hopes
I'll write them a letter testifying to his uncontrollable rage reactions

Note that all this has been caused by a simple "I don't like you".
Bruce J. Richman cannot accept that you don't like him.

[snip]

Bruce J. Richman
An old debris who is burning is very last neurons on RAO.

Sander de Waal wrote:


Just a quick note:

(Bruce J. Richman) said:

Stephen wrote:

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

If you want to go the easy way, yes.
All one has to do is to create a power-opamp, meaning an unit with
high input impedance, low output impedance, and high gain.
The amp's parameters are then defined by only 2 resistors.

Throw in a good power supply, and voila, a new amp is born.

Of course, this is a very simplistic view of how it's done, but
essentially it's just that.

And it's just as exciting as watching paint dry, note.
Every EE could do this in his sleep, you will note.

This is NOT an evaluation or judgement about the Gaincard amp, I'm not
familiar with this particular unit.

I'm serously considering the purchase of a rather expensive integrated
amplifier, but have wondered if the compromises involved - compared to
separates - are all that serious. For the particular brand involved, the
separates would be at least twice as expensive, offer no power advantages,
but
*do* feature Class A operation whereas the integrated runs in A/B. Both
their
integrated amplifiers and their power ampliiers regularly get accolades
from
many reviewers. The brand is Plinius. Comments are welcome.

When time permits, I'll do a search on this amp and be back to you.
In the meantime, I've spoken a fellow repairman who told me that ML
panels are prone to lose efficiency to up about 50 % after ca. 10
years. Yes Bruce, I'm still thinking swapping the CJ Premier 11 for
whatever other amp might not be such a good idea :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."








Thanks for the useful information, Sander. I'm not making any hasty decisions
when it comes to amplifier swapping, even though at 70 watts/channel, the CJ
falls below what ML officially recommends for most of their speakers (80 to 200
watts). However, I know that the CJ is also quite stable, has fairly massive
transformers, and, when I first got the speakers several years ago, did not
seem to have any trouble in driving the speakers to very acceptable volume
levels.

I'm going to talk directly to the folks at ML in the near future before I make
any decisions. I'm also considering switching to Quads, in which case the CJ
would probably be an ideal match.

And of course, I'm aware of the fact that if/when I add a subwoofer to either
in the future, the demands on the electrostatics become less.


Bruce J. Richman

Sander deWaal a écrit :

Just a quick note:

(Bruce J. Richman) said:


Stephen wrote:


Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?


If you want to go the easy way, yes.
All one has to do is to create a power-opamp, meaning an unit with
high input impedance, low output impedance, and high gain.
The amp's parameters are then defined by only 2 resistors.

Throw in a good power supply, and voila, a new amp is born.

Of course, this is a very simplistic view of how it's done, but
essentially it's just that.

And it's just as exciting as watching paint dry, note.
Every EE could do this in his sleep, you will note.

This is NOT an evaluation or judgement about the Gaincard amp, I'm not
familiar with this particular unit.


I'm serously considering the purchase of a rather expensive integrated
amplifier, but have wondered if the compromises involved - compared to
separates - are all that serious. For the particular brand involved, the
separates would be at least twice as expensive, offer no power advantages, but
*do* feature Class A operation whereas the integrated runs in A/B. Both their
integrated amplifiers and their power ampliiers regularly get accolades from
many reviewers. The brand is Plinius. Comments are welcome.


When time permits, I'll do a search on this amp and be back to you.
In the meantime, I've spoken a fellow repairman who told me that ML
panels are prone to lose efficiency to up about 50 % after ca. 10
years. Yes Bruce, I'm still thinking swapping the CJ Premier 11 for
whatever other amp might not be such a good idea :-)

Concerning "Gainclone" and "easy to built" amp. I have bookmarked this
site few times ago. It seems to be interesting :
http://www.briangt.com/

(Bruce J. Richman) said:

Thanks for the useful information, Sander. I'm not making any hasty decisions
when it comes to amplifier swapping, even though at 70 watts/channel, the CJ
falls below what ML officially recommends for most of their speakers (80 to 200
watts). However, I know that the CJ is also quite stable, has fairly massive
transformers, and, when I first got the speakers several years ago, did not
seem to have any trouble in driving the speakers to very acceptable volume
levels.

Forget about the "watts" thing.
100 watts is twice as loud as 10 watts, which is in turn twice as loud
as 1 watt.
Switching from a 70 watts amp to a 140 watts type won't gain you much.
The main difference may lie in the fact that the 140 watts type has a
beefier power supply, meaning it is able to deliver more current ( and
voltage BTW) in certain frequency areas where your speakers have dips.

My hybrid amps ( there they are again) put out 20 Veff at 8 ohms,
which could be roughly translated to 50 watts.
However, due to a massive power supply and several other designing
featues, it doubles up to 100 watts in 4 ohms, close to 200 watts in 2
ohms and 320 watts in 1 ohm. ( yep, the last figure should read 400,
but there's a limit to everything, in this case the internal "on"
resistance of the power MOSFETs. Besides, my dummy load resistors
started to smoke :-)
It plays subjectively louder than an Onkyo M5099 that was in for
repair which I finally got working right, and compared against my
humble contraption.
This Onkyo 40 kg beast is specced as at least 200 watts in 8 ohms.
Go figure!

One of the signs of a good amp IMHO is that you can turn up the volume
without any compression or distortion effects, and it still doesn't
sound "loud" subjectively.
The loudness isn't discovered until one wants to say something and has
to raise his voice immensely :-)

I'm going to talk directly to the folks at ML in the near future before I make
any decisions. I'm also considering switching to Quads, in which case the CJ
would probably be an ideal match.

That would be a wise decision. Many here would agree I think.

And of course, I'm aware of the fact that if/when I add a subwoofer to either
in the future, the demands on the electrostatics become less.

Don't forget that dynamics also decrease when the panels get worse.
In general, the overall performance is not at the level it could be.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Lionel said:

Concerning "Gainclone" and "easy to built" amp. I have bookmarked this
site few times ago. It seems to be interesting :
http://www.briangt.com/

Thanks for the link.
As far as I can tell, it's all about a dedicated National IC and some
preciously chosen components surrounding it (among them Black Gates,
are you listening Devil?) :-)

Apparently, this IC has unexpected qualities. I'll look for the
datasheet at the National site.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

(Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message ...
Paul Dormer wrote:

**cut**

Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people. I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies, and
above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation whenever
they can.


You are so full of ****, Bruce. You are a pompous, fatuous, vacuous
ass. Bray, baby, bray!

Paul Dormer said:

Here's a review of the Gaincard by Steven R. Rochlin. Note that he
mentions it in the same breath as the Ongaku he used to own..

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...9/47review.htm

I'm familiar with Steven Rochlin's use of language.
Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical about this :-)

I think you should build one Sander, and send it to me if you don't
like it ;-)

I'd be happy to build you one, providing you pay for the parts :-)
But remember what I said:
Too bad I don't like ICs :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

In article ,
(Bruce J. Richman) wrote:

I'm serously considering the purchase of a rather expensive integrated
amplifier, but have wondered if the compromises involved - compared to
separates - are all that serious. For the particular brand involved, the
separates would be at least twice as expensive, offer no power advantages,
but
*do* feature Class A operation whereas the integrated runs in A/B. Both
their
integrated amplifiers and their power ampliiers regularly get accolades from
many reviewers. The brand is Plinius. Comments are welcome.

My local shop had one. The salesguys liked it with medium priced M-Ls,
but I don't think they reordered after selling the demo.

Stephen

Subject: Gaincard / gainclone amps..
From: Paul Dormer
Date: 8/17/2004 6:04 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Very well put and quite
perceptive.

The first, and more obnoxious of the two, is trying to get his government
to
pay for a frontal lobotomy.

What.. ANOTHER one?

His government has socialized medicine and he hopes
I'll write them a letter testifying to his uncontrollable rage reactions
whenever he sees the names of certain people writing posts on RAO.
Otherwise,
he may have to stick his head in a vice and his coworkers to give it a good
squeeze. Fortunately, what comes out will be compatible with his work
environment so this won't be too troubling to his colleagues.

The second poster is risking arrests for forgery and libel. He's hoping to
use
an insanity defense. In the US, if you can prove that you couldn't tell the
difference between right and wrong, and in addition, were insane at the time
of
the alleged crime, you can temporarily avoid a prison sentence and instead
be
committed to a hospital for the criminally insane.

Oh dear, maybe he does qualify.. ;-)

But, as you say, there is no reason I should help them achieve their goals
unless I am reimbursed for rendering professional opinions, in writing, to
the
proper authorities.

And let's have their heads on platters too...


--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Paul Dormer said:

I'd be happy to build you one, providing you pay for the parts :-)
But remember what I said:
Too bad I don't like ICs :-)

You sir, are a gentleman, and your generosity knows no bounds! I
wouldn't expect you to build me an amp for cost, however I might
contemplate taking you up on the offer for a fair fee (or bags o' rare
Jazz CD's)..

The latter would delight both me and The She , note.
However, consider having me building you one of my hybrids or tube
amps. You'll be satisfied into the extreme, you will note.

Plus, you get to beat the Devil at his own game :-)
- "Look Ma, a hand-built amp!"
- "Boy, you really shouldn't! Remember the handcrafted car your father
once drove? We had to *walk* to Church almost every Sunday!"

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

An Internet poster forged as follows:


(Bruce J. Richman) wrote in message
...
Paul Dormer wrote:

**cut**

Towards that end, I've just finished killfiling a couple of RAO posters
that
have never had anything useful to say about either audio or other people.
I
sincere look forward to not reading their distortions, inaccuracies, lies,
and
above all, their idiotic daily devotion to spreading disinformation
whenever
they can.


You are so full of ****, Bruce. You are a pompous, fatuous, vacuous
ass. Bray, baby, bray!








I'll be glad to add you to the list, transparent forger and all-around asshole.

Your density in forging AOL addfresses and then transmitting them via google
accounts speaks for itself.

Have you considered suicide, immolation or other forms of productive work
suitable for scumbags such as yourself.

Welcome to the killfile, ****head.

LOL !!!!



Bruce J. Richman

Paul Dormer wrote:



"Bruce J. Richman" emitted :

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Very well put and quite
perceptive.

The first, and more obnoxious of the two, is trying to get his government
to
pay for a frontal lobotomy.

What.. ANOTHER one?


It *is* rather surprising, since repeated CAT scans and PET scans show vast
areas of empty space in his skull. Maybe they think that this time they can
remove the.....er.......brown rather malodorous matter that somehow finds its
way to his mouth.


His government has socialized medicine and he hopes
I'll write them a letter testifying to his uncontrollable rage reactions
whenever he sees the names of certain people writing posts on RAO.
Otherwise,
he may have to stick his head in a vice and his coworkers to give it a good
squeeze. Fortunately, what comes out will be compatible with his work
environment so this won't be too troubling to his colleagues.

The second poster is risking arrests for forgery and libel. He's hoping to
use
an insanity defense. In the US, if you can prove that you couldn't tell the
difference between right and wrong, and in addition, were insane at the time
of
the alleged crime, you can temporarily avoid a prison sentence and instead
be
committed to a hospital for the criminally insane.

Oh dear, maybe he does qualify.. ;-)


He's got an excellent chance of getting admitted for a long-term stay.



But, as you say, there is no reason I should help them achieve their goals
unless I am reimbursed for rendering professional opinions, in writing, to
the
proper authorities.

And let's have their heads on platters too...



I'll have you know that the clamp on my platter does a pretty good job of
removing edge warps. However, it's not powerful enough or heavy enough to
remove the kinds of warps that these people have.

Both have been heard recently extolling the virtues of a mysterious computer
entremanure in the Detroit area. He's apparently helping them with their
defenses.








--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t








Bruce J. Richman

Torresists said:

"Torresists" said :

absolutely **** all



He's a walking (or limping) endorsement for euithanasia.




--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t








Bruce J. Richman

Paul Dormer said:

I *must* recreate the magical
expereinces of hearing "On Land" on a toob setup for the first time..
a memory from 10 years ago that still makes me quiver at the thought
of it. That was some Audio Innovations rig, but I couldn't tell you
which.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't think recreating such fond
memories isn't possible.
I remember hearing Faure's Requiem for the first time when I was
little. That was on my father's system, which consisted of Quad amps
and Quad ESL-57s at that time.
It brought tears to my eyes and moved me in a way I never knew was
possible. It never happened again after that.

No system, no matter what price class or quality, ever brought back
that same feeling that I had back then.

Audio Innovations: they had some very special gear at that time.
Could have been the "First" or "Second" amplifiers, both triode jobs
with either 2 x 2A3 PP per channel or 2 x 2 x 2A3 PP per channel.
Those things left me speechless when I heard them for the first time.
They were also among the first DHT triode amps to be available here on
the continent at that time AFAIK (1989?)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Paul Dormer wrote:

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps.

It's actually an entire amplifier chip. No di#screte are needed.


The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

Since they built them themselves I supect the usual 'I did it so it sounds
great' effect.



This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in which
Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier to design
around as it didn't need the expensive component matching of a discrete
amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

Nope. In fact the limitations of the devices that can be produced using IC
fabrication techniques normally means that an IC design has to make
comnpromises compared to a fully discrete design.

Not many ppl are tutored in discrete circuit design anymore however, it's a
vanishing 'art' - sorry science.

The device used in the Gainclone is this I understand.

"The LM3875 is a high-performance audio power amplifier capable of
delivering
56W of continuous average power to an 8 load with 0.1% THD+N from 20Hz to
20kHz"

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3875.html

The output stage isn't even the complementary type !

Some modern IC amplifiers are *ok* - but I've never seen one that truly
shined. You can do so much more with discrete circuit design.


Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Paul Dormer wrote:

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane
National Semiconductor's IC opamps.

It's actually an entire amplifier chip. No di#screte are needed.

The latest version of this part appears to be the LM4780 - reference
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM4780.pdf

Figures 2-4, 6,7 show a number of seemingly required discrete parts of a
fairly trivial nature.

The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building
Gaincard clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part,
it seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

Since they built them themselves I supect the usual 'I did it so it
sounds great' effect.

AKA constructor's ear.

These chips fulfill a social need. Building, modifying and repairing SS
discrete component amps is not for those with absolutely minimal resources
or the faint of heart. Been there, done that! In contrast, these chip amps
are fairly hard to kill.

This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in
which Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier
to design around as it didn't need the expensive component matching
of a discrete amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

Nope. In fact the limitations of the devices that can be produced
using IC fabrication techniques normally means that an IC design has
to make comnpromises compared to a fully discrete design.

Agreed. The technical test of the gaincard shown at
http://www.stereophile.com/amplifica...47/index4.html
illustrates some of these limitations.

Not many ppl are tutored in discrete circuit design anymore however,
it's a vanishing 'art' - sorry science.

Certainly true for discrete power amp design.

The device used in the Gainclone is this I understand.

"The LM3875 is a high-performance audio power amplifier capable of
delivering
56W of continuous average power to an 8 load with 0.1% THD+N from
20Hz to 20kHz"

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3875.html

http://www.national.com/whatsnew/ind...=779&v=c&p=120 shows a number
of forms of this device listed as being "Obsolete".

The output stage isn't even the complementary type !

How about that.

Some modern IC amplifiers are *ok* - but I've never seen one that
truly shined. You can do so much more with discrete circuit design.

IMO this one meets a practical need, and is probably good enough as actually
used to not hurt too many people's ears.

In article ,
Paul Dormer wrote:

"MINe 109" emitted :

For the uninitiated, the Gaincard is a simplistic amplifier produced
by 47 Laboratory, which at it's heart uses apparently mundane National
Semiconductor's IC opamps. The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part, it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in which
Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier to design
around as it didn't need the expensive component matching of a discrete
amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

I'm not sure what you mean by "statistic advantage"?

It's poorly worded because I'm not much on circuit design and I'm
relying on memory of an old reference and a salesman's explanation.

The answers I've had so far have taken reasonable assumptions about what
I might have meant, so, thanks to all! Let me try again:

Are ICs more predictable despite (or due to) the greater number of
less-rigorously matched component parts?

As opposed to discrete, which must be absolutely correct?

Stephen

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


Graham


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
"Pooh Bear" emitted :

The DIY fraternaty reverse engineered the
Gaincard and now *hundreds* of people worldwide are building Gaincard
clones or modifications thereof, referred to as Gainclones.

I have now read a few reviews of these amps and, for the most part,
it
seems reviewers have *transandental* experiences with them.

Comments..?

Since they built them themselves I supect the usual 'I did it so it
sounds
great' effect.

Didn't you claim to be an audio equipment designer? Therefore you are
also vulnerable to the 'I did it so it sounds great' effect...

This reminds me of a review of the Linn Majik integrated amp, in which
Linn made a virtue of the IC amp therein, IIRC, it was easier to design
around as it didn't need the expensive component matching of a discrete
amp.

Is there a circuit-designing statistical advantage to ICs?

Nope. In fact the limitations of the devices that can be produced using
IC
fabrication techniques normally means that an IC design has to make
comnpromises compared to a fully discrete design.

Not many ppl are tutored in discrete circuit design anymore however, it's
a
vanishing 'art' - sorry science.

The device used in the Gainclone is this I understand.

"The LM3875 is a high-performance audio power amplifier capable of
delivering
56W of continuous average power to an 8 load with 0.1% THD+N from 20Hz to
20kHz"

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3875.html

The output stage isn't even the complementary type !

Some modern IC amplifiers are *ok* - but I've never seen one that truly
shined. You can do so much more with discrete circuit design.

Have you heard the amplifier in question.


Have you forgotten?
He can visualize what it sounds like by merely reading the schematic.

Paul Dormer said:

I occasionally see Audio Innovations equipment for sale in the UK..

So.. may I ask.. how do I traverse this veritable minefield of
topologies and valve types to hone in on what I seek? There are no
dealers in my area who carry a range to demo.. and I ain't got a clue
what you and Devil are going on about half the time. Is it a case of
suck it and see? There are so many differences in opinion about what
is best I haven't got a clue where to start. Left to my own devices
I'd probably just plonk down some cash on something like this for
example..

There are many ways to build a valve amp.
There are different types of output valves, triodes, beam tetrodes and
pentodes. All have their own characteristics, and all can be wired in
different ways.
It would take me some time to explain all this in relative laymans
terms, though.

One thing I can tell you: don't rush out and buy just a box with
valves on.in it.
Can't you lend some kind of valve amp for a few days to try?
If you're still using the EPOS 11 speakers, I could send you over two
little EL84 PP monoblocks to try.
Nothing special, I'm afraid, just 2 no-nonsense basic valve amps.
They're basically knockoffs of the Lafayette design, but with 6V6 GTB
instead of EL84.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...sPageName=WDVW

..but I have no idea whether that's a good starting point. The design
looks familiar to many others... that's about all I can say.

Ah....the AI 500.
EL34 push pull, Audio Note output transformers.
210 pounds (400 euros?) doesn't sound like a crazy price to me.
A good amp, and certainly for that price.

However, try if you can find a Bocama/ Lafayette LA244B or Wembley
2-12 (essentially the same thing).
Probably a Rogers Cadet 3, maybe better available in the UK.
They're integrateds, and a good way to start with tube audio.
One can always cannibalize the innards afterwards to build his own:-)
One can be had for 100 euros on the continent (65...70 GBP).

Likewise, if I commissioned you to build me something, at this point
in time I wouldn't have a clue what to ask for..

That's why you have to try different amps.
It is always said tht SET amps (Single Ended Triodes) are th best
there is, preferably when there's a WE300B in it.
I don't agree with that, I'm afraid. They lack balls.

Just shoot me an e-mail and we'll discuss it from there.
You can send it to my Demon account, I'll then send you my current
9SPAMFREE!) e-mail adress.

You'll have to excuse me now, it's 3.00 AM and I must get to bed now.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've personally
examined the email atachments that no longer exist, (heck, you probably did
that when you sent them to me!) and choose to overrule the judgement of the
MSP officer who personally examined them and said that they were actually
just gross pix of adults.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've personally
examined the email atachments that no longer exist, (heck, you probably
did
that when you sent them to me!) and choose to overrule the judgement of
the
MSP officer who personally examined them and said that they were actually
just gross pix of adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn. So stop accusing people of doing so.

And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've
personally examined the email atachments that no longer exist,
(heck, you probably did that when you sent them to me!) and choose
to overrule the judgement of the MSP officer who personally examined
them and said that they were actually just gross pix of adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

So stop accusing people of doing so.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

Nice try, proven liar.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

Art, thanks for agreeing that your synopsis was a mixture of self-pity and
lies. You're such a sport! ;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've
personally examined the email atachments that no longer exist,
(heck, you probably did that when you sent them to me!) and choose
to overrule the judgement of the MSP officer who personally examined
them and said that they were actually just gross pix of adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

So stop accusing people of doing so.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

Nice try, proven liar.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

Art, thanks for agreeing that your synopsis was a mixture of self-pity and
lies. You're such a sport! ;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've
personally examined the email atachments that no longer exist,
(heck, you probably did that when you sent them to me!) and choose
to overrule the judgement of the MSP officer who personally examined
them and said that they were actually just gross pix of adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?


You STILL keep accusing people of sending you
child porn

So stop accusing people of doing so.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?


and you STILL keep accusing people of sending you
child porn!


And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

Nice try, proven liar.


Your clumsy manufacutring of the email headers
has been proven many times.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

Art, thanks for agreeing that your synopsis was a mixture of self-pity and
lies. You're such a sport! ;-)


Yes, it was a synopsis of your self pity and lies.

Paul Dormer wrote:

"Pooh Bear" emitted :

Some modern IC amplifiers are *ok* - but I've never seen one that truly
shined. You can do so much more with discrete circuit design.

Have you heard the amplifier in question.

I've heard enough IC amplifiers to be aware that most sound pretty similar. Kind
of 'ok if you're not too critical'.

Since they all tend to share the same circuit topology ( and will therefore have
similar characteristics ). I'm not going to bust a gut to listen to another
lookalike.

In particular - a non-complementary output stage is a great leap backwards. I
believe that this is done since it's difficult to integrate useful PNP power
transistors on the same chip process used for NPNs.

The final output stage will therefore be plauged with the same non-linearity
that gave ss amps a bad name in the early 70s.

IC power amps are always a compromise.


Graham

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


Graham

so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

I did read it.

I don't understand its relationship to audio matters.


Graham

Clyde Slick wrote:

so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

Your obsession with following this disputed claim makes you look very
sad.

It's very easy to smear ppl. I'm unimpressed.


Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


Graham

so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

I did read it.

I don't understand its relationship to audio matters.


Graham


Graham is going with the the burying his head in the sand option.

MINe 109 wrote:

Are ICs more predictable despite (or due to) the greater number of
less-rigorously matched component parts?

ICs are subject to 'process drift' - meaning that their parameters vary. Some
parameters may be specced as much as 10:1 between typical and min/max figures.

Compare making an IC to baking a cake. It's not actually really that different
conceptually in many ways.

As opposed to discrete, which must be absolutely correct?

The performance of discretes is much more predictable, especially with selected
parts - such as for current gain.

A special advantage is that the semiconductor fabrication process can be chosen
to suit the type of semiconductor being made.

A low-voltage small-signal device uses an entirely different process to a
high-voltage high-current large power semiconductor.

ICs don't have this flexibility and therefore have to compromise. Only a few IC
processes are capable of supporting parts with working voltage greater than
40-44 V too.


Graham

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've
personally examined the email atachments that no longer exist,
(heck, you probably did that when you sent them to me!) and choose
to overrule the judgement of the MSP officer who personally
examined them and said that they were actually just gross pix of
adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

So stop accusing people of doing so.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

Nice try, proven liar.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

Art, thanks for agreeing that your synopsis was a mixture of
self-pity and lies. You're such a sport! ;-)

Score! I again blew Art's mind so badly that he just posted my post with no
comments.

Sander deWaal wrote:

Forget about the "watts" thing.
100 watts is twice as loud as 10 watts, which is in turn twice as loud
as 1 watt.
Switching from a 70 watts amp to a 140 watts type won't gain you much.

Very true. It's best to think of decibels.

Doubling power is just 3dB, which isn't much of a percieved volume increase.

Best to consider your needs than to obsess with supposed 'required power'.


Graham

Sander deWaal wrote:

Paul Dormer said:

Here's a review of the Gaincard by Steven R. Rochlin. Note that he
mentions it in the same breath as the Ongaku he used to own..

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...9/47review.htm

I'm familiar with Steven Rochlin's use of language.
Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical about this :-)

For someone to 'wax lyrical' about a bog standard National Semiconducor
power op-amp reinforces my suspicion that there's no shortage of audio
charlatans !


Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote:

so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

Your obsession with following this disputed claim makes you look very
sad.

It's very easy to smear ppl. I'm unimpressed.


Then you must be very unimpressed with Arny.

Is it alright in your book to
knowingly falsely accuse people
of emailing child porn? The record shows
Arny has made such claims. The record shows
that concurrently to this, he also
claims that the Michigan State Police has
judged the 'alleged' material top be of adults.
How do you reconcile the inherent inconsistency?
Does truth matter to you? If so, reconcile your
ambivilance towards Arny's behavior
with your passion for truth.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


so, what do you think of Arny now, after you read my
synopsis of his behaviors regarding his claims that
various posters here have sent him email
containing child porn? And how he still maintains
we sent him child porn, while at the same time
alleging that the very same pictures, while they were being
stored in his hard drive, were NOT child porn, so as to absolve
himself of the criminal act of possesing child porn?
Can you see that his claims are inconsistent and
that one, or all of them, are lies?

What child porn, Art? The stuff you sent me?

I take it that with your well-known omniscience Art, you've
personally examined the email atachments that no longer exist,
(heck, you probably did that when you sent them to me!) and choose
to overrule the judgement of the MSP officer who personally
examined them and said that they were actually just gross pix of
adults.


In that case, even if we can believe your story, doofus, nobody sent
you child porn.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

So stop accusing people of doing so.

Who is the dofus, this info has been posted here for almost a year?

And of course I never examined the email attachments
that , hehe, "no longer exist", as, for one thing,
they never, ever existed at all.

Nice try, proven liar.

This was the synopsis I posted several days ago, with a note
in the header requesting that you read it.

It's a mixture of self-pity and lies.

You are dead on right there, doofus!!!! It was merely a description
of your behavior.

Art, thanks for agreeing that your synopsis was a mixture of
self-pity and lies. You're such a sport! ;-)

Score! I again blew Art's mind so badly that he just posted my post with
no
comments.



Merely a sticky mouse.
My reply followed immediately.