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#1
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Stereo Loudness Control?
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the
Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? TIA, Dan P.S. yes, I still a two channel man. |
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#2
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan:
No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair -------------------------- "Dan" wrote in message ... I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? TIA, Dan P.S. yes, I still a two channel man. |
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#3
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan:
No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair -------------------------- "Dan" wrote in message ... I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? TIA, Dan P.S. yes, I still a two channel man. |
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#4
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan:
No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair -------------------------- "Dan" wrote in message ... I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? TIA, Dan P.S. yes, I still a two channel man. |
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#5
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan:
No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair -------------------------- "Dan" wrote in message ... I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? TIA, Dan P.S. yes, I still a two channel man. |
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#6
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Stereo Loudness Control?
On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote:
Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#7
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Stereo Loudness Control?
On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote:
Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#8
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Stereo Loudness Control?
On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote:
Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#9
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Stereo Loudness Control?
On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote:
Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#10
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Stereo Loudness Control?
I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the
right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#11
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Stereo Loudness Control?
I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the
right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#12
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Stereo Loudness Control?
I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the
right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#13
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Stereo Loudness Control?
I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the
right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#14
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but
they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. With electronic and/or digital controls, it would be very easy to preset the exact compensation curves into a system based on individual requirements (ears, speakers, listening habits, etc.) but I've never seen it done. "Tim Padrick" wrote in message ... I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#15
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but
they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. With electronic and/or digital controls, it would be very easy to preset the exact compensation curves into a system based on individual requirements (ears, speakers, listening habits, etc.) but I've never seen it done. "Tim Padrick" wrote in message ... I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#16
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but
they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. With electronic and/or digital controls, it would be very easy to preset the exact compensation curves into a system based on individual requirements (ears, speakers, listening habits, etc.) but I've never seen it done. "Tim Padrick" wrote in message ... I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#17
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but
they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. With electronic and/or digital controls, it would be very easy to preset the exact compensation curves into a system based on individual requirements (ears, speakers, listening habits, etc.) but I've never seen it done. "Tim Padrick" wrote in message ... I've never encountered a Loudness circuit that boosted the right amount the right frequencies - they always boost too much upper bass and lower treble. Plus, the better the system is, the less the frequency extremes fall off. With a lot of gear, the response changes as the level changes. "Dan" wrote in message ... On 2/8/2004 2:30 PM, Sofie wrote: Dan: No..... with most of the "variable loudness" designs as found in better equipment such as your Denon, and in Yamaha and others..... the perceived and actual volume will decrease as the loudness compensation is cranked in..... you then have to compensate for the over-all volume that you desire with the "Volume" control. The reason that most receivers like your Marantz and others do not have this feature is that is more expensive to build into the final product than just a much simpler loudness switch. In the world of competitive manufacturing involving large quantities of product just a couple dollars of parts become a huge increase in the retail list price by the time the product makes it through the many levels of the distribution chain. Just imagine if you built a million of something and you added in $2 in extra parts with no increase in the final retail list price....... you would be subtracting $2,000,000 from your profit line...... this is one of the reasons that you are seeing less and less knobs, controls and switches on your equipment..... it is much cheaper to put these functions into a cheap hand held IR remote control...... just don't lose the factory remote. My Marantz was more expensive than then my Denon. I guess Marantz figures the the loudness control would be irrelevant at the minimal volumes its listener's will use and invested more in the amplifier possibly. Dan |
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#18
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote in message ...
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A perfect correction would have to take into account the efficiency of the loudspeakers, the reverberation radius of the room, the level at which the recording was made, the gain in the CD player etc. The loudness button in almost every amplifier is very crude and compensates by means of the position of the volume control; when is lowered, the bass is not lowered as much as higher frequencies. Sometimes this applies also to the treble, but this is unphysiological (look at the Fletcher&Munson curves, they are not compressed towards the treble). Furthermore, the main purpose of the button is not to keep the perceived level constant as you press the button, but to keep the spectral balance constant as you lower the volume control. Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? Obviously not... :-) |
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#19
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote in message ...
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A perfect correction would have to take into account the efficiency of the loudspeakers, the reverberation radius of the room, the level at which the recording was made, the gain in the CD player etc. The loudness button in almost every amplifier is very crude and compensates by means of the position of the volume control; when is lowered, the bass is not lowered as much as higher frequencies. Sometimes this applies also to the treble, but this is unphysiological (look at the Fletcher&Munson curves, they are not compressed towards the treble). Furthermore, the main purpose of the button is not to keep the perceived level constant as you press the button, but to keep the spectral balance constant as you lower the volume control. Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? Obviously not... :-) |
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#20
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote in message ...
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A perfect correction would have to take into account the efficiency of the loudspeakers, the reverberation radius of the room, the level at which the recording was made, the gain in the CD player etc. The loudness button in almost every amplifier is very crude and compensates by means of the position of the volume control; when is lowered, the bass is not lowered as much as higher frequencies. Sometimes this applies also to the treble, but this is unphysiological (look at the Fletcher&Munson curves, they are not compressed towards the treble). Furthermore, the main purpose of the button is not to keep the perceived level constant as you press the button, but to keep the spectral balance constant as you lower the volume control. Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? Obviously not... :-) |
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#21
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote in message ...
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A perfect correction would have to take into account the efficiency of the loudspeakers, the reverberation radius of the room, the level at which the recording was made, the gain in the CD player etc. The loudness button in almost every amplifier is very crude and compensates by means of the position of the volume control; when is lowered, the bass is not lowered as much as higher frequencies. Sometimes this applies also to the treble, but this is unphysiological (look at the Fletcher&Munson curves, they are not compressed towards the treble). Furthermore, the main purpose of the button is not to keep the perceived level constant as you press the button, but to keep the spectral balance constant as you lower the volume control. Secondly, the Marantz SR4320 doesn't have this control. Why is this? Isn't is standard on all stereo receivers? Obviously not... :-) |
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#22
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote:
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A 'loudness' control is related to the actual sound pressure level arriving at hte listener's ears. So unless the whole system including speakers is calibrated to that control and it's interaction with the main volume control, it's effects are arbitary at best. Just leave it 'Off' and turn the volume up ;-) geoff |
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#23
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote:
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A 'loudness' control is related to the actual sound pressure level arriving at hte listener's ears. So unless the whole system including speakers is calibrated to that control and it's interaction with the main volume control, it's effects are arbitary at best. Just leave it 'Off' and turn the volume up ;-) geoff |
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#24
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote:
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A 'loudness' control is related to the actual sound pressure level arriving at hte listener's ears. So unless the whole system including speakers is calibrated to that control and it's interaction with the main volume control, it's effects are arbitary at best. Just leave it 'Off' and turn the volume up ;-) geoff |
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#25
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Dan wrote:
I have two stereo receivers, one with a variable loudness control (the Denon) and one without it (the Marantz). First of all, when I put the Denon' volume very low to test this control to restore the higher and lower frequencies (move the knob counter clock-wise from the flat setting), it does restore the base and treble but actually makes the perceived volume lower! Shouldn't it keep the perceived volume the same? A 'loudness' control is related to the actual sound pressure level arriving at hte listener's ears. So unless the whole system including speakers is calibrated to that control and it's interaction with the main volume control, it's effects are arbitary at best. Just leave it 'Off' and turn the volume up ;-) geoff |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. |
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#27
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Stereo Loudness Control?
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. |
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#28
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Stereo Loudness Control?
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. |
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#29
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Stereo Loudness Control?
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message . ..
Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Rich Andrews wrote in message . 3.44...
(Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Rich Andrews wrote in message . 3.44...
(Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? |
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#36
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Rich Andrews wrote in message . 3.44...
(Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? |
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#37
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Stereo Loudness Control?
Rich Andrews wrote in message . 3.44...
(Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? |
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
m: Rich Andrews wrote in message news: ... (Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? No. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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#39
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
m: Rich Andrews wrote in message news: ... (Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? No. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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#40
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Stereo Loudness Control?
(Svante) wrote in
m: Rich Andrews wrote in message news: ... (Svante) wrote in om: "Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news: ... Loudness controls aren't meant to compensate for equipment deficiencies, but they are an attempt to compensate for the "Fletcher-Munson effect" in which our ears tend to become less sensitive to frequency extremes at low volume. Unfortunately, even the best analog loudness circuits only roughly approximate the right compensation. Also, no two people are alike, and furthermore, without separate loudness and volume controls, it's nearly impossible to calibrate the loudness compensation. Here's how it works: You turn the loudness control all the way up, then you turn up the volume control for the original sound pressure level (how would you know how loud the original recording was? That information is usually not provided). Then you use the loudness control to adjust for a comfortable listening level. With a single volume control, any loudness compensation simply assumes that the original sound pressure level is when the volume control is halfway up. When all is said and done, it's probably only slightly less convenient to just turn up the bass and treble when listening at low volume. Good explanation, with one exception. The treble should NOT be turned up. It is commonly done with the loudness button, but there is no physiological excuse for doing so. Have a look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, eg at: http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm Now, the low frequencies are *compressed*, that is, moving 10 dB down may yield a perceived drop of 15-20 dB (or Phon to be absolutely correct). At mid and high frequencies a 10 dB drop will yield approximately a 10 dB perceived drop. The net result is that when the volume is turned down, the bass (only) appears to have dropped more than the mid and high. So, the treble should not be turned up, at least not for physiological reasons. I quite disagree. Both the treble and bass are to be compensated if the end result is to be a flat response. The treble not as much as the bass, but it still needs to be done. http://members.aol.com/sbench/freqres3.html r That is just the point, the goal is NOT to acheive ears with a flat frequency response. Why would you want to listen with flat ears at home when you have the non-flat ears at every concert you go to? For example, the dip in the FM curves at ~3kHz comes from resonance in the earcanal outside the eardrum. Would you want to cancel the effect of the earcanal, just because you listen at home? The use of the loudness button can be explained by looking in detail at the FM curves, let's take the curves on the page you referred to. Let's also say that we play a piece at 50 dB level, but that the piece actually was recorded at 90 dB. Without any compensation this will happen: At 1kHz we will perceive a drop of 40 Phon, we pass four lines going downwards in the FM diagram. At low frequencies, say 100 Hz, we will perceive a drop of 70 Phon as we pass 7 lines. Boosting the bass, by 30 phon (about 20 dB at 100 Hz and this level) would give a listening impression more similar to the original recording. At 10 kHz we only pass 4 lines, ie we perceive a 40 Phon drop. Boosting the treble would (and does) yield an unnaturally bright sound. I shall admit that there IS a certain compression effect at the very highest levels at 10 kHz, between 100 and 120 dB we pass 3 Phon lines, and would perceive a 30 Phon change. However, the loudness function is hardly intended to compensate for these extremely high levels in the treble. Also going from 0 to 90 dB there IS a minimal compression of ~2dB, which is hardly worth compensating for. Did that explain my point? No. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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