In article gers.com,
"Duncan A. McRae" wrote:

Maybe you folks can help me out with a problem I'm having with a
recently-installed system.

BACKGROUND
Quite a while ago, I went to the Future Shop in Oakville and picked up a
Clarion stereo, MTX 4244 amp, MTX 12" sub (boxed) and a pair of Infinity
5.x" speakers for my doors. This was all installed in an old BMW 525i, then
transferred to my Acura CL3.0 with no problems (the speakers weren't
transferred because the Acura uses 6" speakers up front). In March, the
Clarion stereo was stolen. I had the bodyshop replace the stock (Bose)
system which I'd kept, and all was fine (though not as clear and powerful as
the old system, obviously). Most importantly, there was no alternator
noise, nor any other intrusion into my listening pleasure, save the quality
of the system.

LAST WEEK
I took the Acura back to Future Shop and picked up a new stereo, a Panasonic
CQ-DF583. I also had the speakers installed by using plastic cuffs (anchor
speaker to cuff, anchor cuff to mount). It appeared that the original
installer had cut some corners; the speaker wire and power wire were run
down the same (driver's) side of the car, and there was only one set of
RCA's going back to the amp (the fronts, rears and sub were ALL being run
off a single channel). When we turned the deck on, there was a high-pitched
whining, which changes with engine speed. Based on conversation with the
installers and research in this group/on the 'net, I'm pretty sure it's
alternator noise.

TODAY
I took the CL back again today to get a second RCA strung to the back, and
to upgrade the deck to a CQ-DF783. The only real difference is that it
boasts two pair of pre-outs and a separate dongle for the sub. Anyway, the
speaker wires were strung down the passenger side (fronts & sub get the
wires to&from the amp, back speakers run straight off the deck), the new
radio was installed, and the whine from the system is damned near deafening.
I noticed that it decreased on the drive home. It was raining heavily,
which might have improved the bad-ground situation, if that's the problem.

I just went to the vehicle to check things out, and here's what I found:
- the amp is grounded to the d/s wheel-well. The paint was not (as far as
I can see) sanded away first, but a metal (piercing) screw was used.
- the grommet is separated from the head of the screw by a stack of
washers, likely to keep the screw from going so far through the housing that
it pierces my tire.
- the cord is perhaps 24" long, spliced half-way (the amp was once mounted
to the BMW, and so the wire only had to go a few inches to ground).
- I pulled the deck and checked the aerial; it's snuggly seated in the deck
- I cannot check the connections in the wiring; they've been wrapped in
electical tape.
- I actually get TWO noises from the system; the first when I turn the key
to the "accessories" stage, and then the alternator whine is added when I
turn it on.
- Of the two, the first (accessories-only stage) is louder.

I spoke with the install manager, and he suggests that it could be caused by
a bad ground in any other system in the car. I didn't understand what that
had to do with anything, since there was no noise prior to their
installation last week. The installation this week comprised simply of
pulling the old stereo out and sliding the new one in; that shouldn't have
been a factor. They offerred to check it out and cap the expense to me at
$200. I don't feel happy paying ANYTHING, let alone $200, to fix a problem
that didn't exist before they did the installation last Saturday.

I've already called the Future Shop and asked that a manager get involved to
help sort this out; I'm prepared to let the dude have my car all day (a
large inconvenience in itself) but I DON'T see that I should have to pay for
it.

Is there anything I can do before next weekend to rule out other systems?
I've seen on the 'net that I could
- replace my spark-plug wires, which seems a little odd, and
- install a capacitor between my alternator and... something.

Is either step reasonable, inexpensive, and an easy DIY job? I'm not afraid
to pull wires & such (I've built twenty or thirty computers, and tinker with
my remaining 9 regularly), but I'm no mechanic.

Thanks folks;
Duncan


Make sure that the amp's negative terminal, and nothing else, is very
well grounded. The RCA cables should be grounded only from inside the
head unit, nowhere else. The speaker cables should not be grounded
except for maybe inside the amplifier.

Remove the RCA cables and check the voltage on the chassis of the head
unit. It should be less than 0.1 volts. More voltage (or the HU not
turning on) means it has a bad ground.

Connect a handheld amplifier (like Radio Shack's) to the RCA cables on
the HU, with no other RCA cables connected, to see if there's noise
without a ground loop.

Thank you, Kevin. I'll see what I can do (I may just show this to the
original install-tech and see what HE does with it).


"Kevin McMurtrie" wrote in message
...
Make sure that the amp's negative terminal, and nothing else, is very
well grounded. The RCA cables should be grounded only from inside the
head unit, nowhere else. The speaker cables should not be grounded
except for maybe inside the amplifier.

Remove the RCA cables and check the voltage on the chassis of the head
unit. It should be less than 0.1 volts. More voltage (or the HU not
turning on) means it has a bad ground.

Connect a handheld amplifier (like Radio Shack's) to the RCA cables on
the HU, with no other RCA cables connected, to see if there's noise
without a ground loop.

Duncan A. McRae wrote

Maybe you folks can help me out with a problem I'm having with a
recently-installed system.

After reading this post I would suggest that the problem you are having is
with Future Shop.

BACKGROUND
Quite a while ago, I went to the Future Shop in Oakville and picked up a
Clarion stereo, MTX 4244 amp, MTX 12" sub (boxed) and a pair of Infinity
5.x" speakers for my doors. This was all installed in an old BMW 525i,
then
transferred to my Acura CL3.0 with no problems (the speakers weren't
transferred because the Acura uses 6" speakers up front). In March, the
Clarion stereo was stolen. I had the bodyshop replace the stock (Bose)
system which I'd kept, and all was fine (though not as clear and powerful
as
the old system, obviously). Most importantly, there was no alternator
noise, nor any other intrusion into my listening pleasure, save the
quality
of the system.

Do you have any idea if anyone who works there now was around during the
above installation which you were satisfied with?

LAST WEEK
I took the Acura back to Future Shop and picked up a new stereo, a
Panasonic
CQ-DF583. I also had the speakers installed by using plastic cuffs
(anchor
speaker to cuff, anchor cuff to mount). It appeared that the original
installer had cut some corners; the speaker wire and power wire were run
down the same (driver's) side of the car, and there was only one set of
RCA's going back to the amp (the fronts, rears and sub were ALL being run
off a single channel). When we turned the deck on, there was a
high-pitched
whining, which changes with engine speed. Based on conversation with the
installers and research in this group/on the 'net, I'm pretty sure it's
alternator noise.

Couple of items here ...
1) running the speaker wire and power wire down the same side of the car is
fine, it's the RCAs that have to be on their own.
2) technically there is nothing wrong (short cut) about running the entire
show off of 1 set of RCAs, the only thing you lose is the ability to fade.
I would suspect the head unit ground might be causing the problem (assuming
you haven't re-routed the RCAs beside the power cable). Way back in the day,
one of the regulars on here (could have been Durbin) posted a bullet-proof
grounding method for head units.

To paraphrase ... take the ground wire coming from the wiring harness of the
head unit and attach it to the casing of the head unit. From that same point
of attachment, run a new piece of wire to the nearest solid piece of metal
that will provide a system ground. Ignore the ground wire that is available
in the wiring harness of the vehicle.

TODAY
I took the CL back again today to get a second RCA strung to the back, and
to upgrade the deck to a CQ-DF783. The only real difference is that it
boasts two pair of pre-outs and a separate dongle for the sub. Anyway,
the
speaker wires were strung down the passenger side (fronts & sub get the
wires to&from the amp, back speakers run straight off the deck), the new
radio was installed, and the whine from the system is damned near
deafening.
I noticed that it decreased on the drive home. It was raining heavily,
which might have improved the bad-ground situation, if that's the problem.

I just went to the vehicle to check things out, and here's what I found:
- the amp is grounded to the d/s wheel-well. The paint was not (as far
as
I can see) sanded away first, but a metal (piercing) screw was used.
- the grommet is separated from the head of the screw by a stack of
washers, likely to keep the screw from going so far through the housing
that
it pierces my tire.
- the cord is perhaps 24" long, spliced half-way (the amp was once
mounted
to the BMW, and so the wire only had to go a few inches to ground).
- I pulled the deck and checked the aerial; it's snuggly seated in the
deck
- I cannot check the connections in the wiring; they've been wrapped in
electical tape.
- I actually get TWO noises from the system; the first when I turn the
key
to the "accessories" stage, and then the alternator whine is added when I
turn it on.
- Of the two, the first (accessories-only stage) is louder.

I spoke with the install manager, and he suggests that it could be caused
by
a bad ground in any other system in the car. I didn't understand what
that
had to do with anything, since there was no noise prior to their
installation last week. The installation this week comprised simply of
pulling the old stereo out and sliding the new one in; that shouldn't have
been a factor. They offerred to check it out and cap the expense to me at
$200. I don't feel happy paying ANYTHING, let alone $200, to fix a
problem
that didn't exist before they did the installation last Saturday.

I've already called the Future Shop and asked that a manager get involved
to
help sort this out; I'm prepared to let the dude have my car all day (a
large inconvenience in itself) but I DON'T see that I should have to pay
for
it.

The rest of your post is very unnecessary. The actions of the install
manager are reprehensible. To even suggest to you that their installation
isn't the cause of your problem is absurd. Rain hell-fire and brimstone on
the store manager, and/or go right to corporate level and don't even dream
of spending another dime. I would recommend taking a print-out of this
thread with you to point out that you are sharing your terrible experience
with thousands of potential customers.
I live just north of Toronto, and would be willing to help you out in person
with this (I get really steamed when people get taken advantage of). I will
be going to the Ontario Renaissance Festival on Sunday (Trafalgar and Derry)
so that would be an ideal time to hook up and talk if you like.

I would suspect the head unit ground might be causing the problem (assuming
you haven't re-routed the RCAs beside the power cable).

BUT even running RCAs next to power wire 99% of the time causes zero problems.
Bad grounds, loose broken etc. are usually the cause of whine.

radio was installed, and the whine from the system is damned near
deafening.
snip
I just went to the vehicle to check things out, and here's what I found:
- the amp is grounded to the d/s wheel-well. The paint was not (as far
as
I can see) sanded away first, but a metal (piercing) screw was used.

BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!!!!!!!!
1) First off the wheel well is typically just welded on, not a good place to
ground.
2) Paint needs to be scraped away to get a good secure connection.
3) Screws almost never (by almost never i pretty much mean never) make a good
solid tight connection.

This is most likely your problem right there. take it back and tell them this
is bad installation skills and raise absolute hell.

Les

Hi,
Who would go to Future shop for a good install anyhow?
Tony

Daniel Snooks wrote:
Duncan A. McRae wrote


Maybe you folks can help me out with a problem I'm having with a
recently-installed system.


After reading this post I would suggest that the problem you are having is
with Future Shop.


BACKGROUND
Quite a while ago, I went to the Future Shop in Oakville and picked up a
Clarion stereo, MTX 4244 amp, MTX 12" sub (boxed) and a pair of Infinity
5.x" speakers for my doors. This was all installed in an old BMW 525i,

then

transferred to my Acura CL3.0 with no problems (the speakers weren't
transferred because the Acura uses 6" speakers up front). In March, the
Clarion stereo was stolen. I had the bodyshop replace the stock (Bose)
system which I'd kept, and all was fine (though not as clear and powerful

as

the old system, obviously). Most importantly, there was no alternator
noise, nor any other intrusion into my listening pleasure, save the

quality

of the system.


Do you have any idea if anyone who works there now was around during the
above installation which you were satisfied with?


LAST WEEK
I took the Acura back to Future Shop and picked up a new stereo, a

Panasonic

CQ-DF583. I also had the speakers installed by using plastic cuffs

(anchor

speaker to cuff, anchor cuff to mount). It appeared that the original
installer had cut some corners; the speaker wire and power wire were run
down the same (driver's) side of the car, and there was only one set of
RCA's going back to the amp (the fronts, rears and sub were ALL being run
off a single channel). When we turned the deck on, there was a

high-pitched

whining, which changes with engine speed. Based on conversation with the
installers and research in this group/on the 'net, I'm pretty sure it's
alternator noise.


Couple of items here ...
1) running the speaker wire and power wire down the same side of the car is
fine, it's the RCAs that have to be on their own.
2) technically there is nothing wrong (short cut) about running the entire
show off of 1 set of RCAs, the only thing you lose is the ability to fade.
I would suspect the head unit ground might be causing the problem (assuming
you haven't re-routed the RCAs beside the power cable). Way back in the day,
one of the regulars on here (could have been Durbin) posted a bullet-proof
grounding method for head units.

To paraphrase ... take the ground wire coming from the wiring harness of the
head unit and attach it to the casing of the head unit. From that same point
of attachment, run a new piece of wire to the nearest solid piece of metal
that will provide a system ground. Ignore the ground wire that is available
in the wiring harness of the vehicle.


TODAY
I took the CL back again today to get a second RCA strung to the back, and
to upgrade the deck to a CQ-DF783. The only real difference is that it
boasts two pair of pre-outs and a separate dongle for the sub. Anyway,

the

speaker wires were strung down the passenger side (fronts & sub get the
wires to&from the amp, back speakers run straight off the deck), the new
radio was installed, and the whine from the system is damned near

deafening.

I noticed that it decreased on the drive home. It was raining heavily,
which might have improved the bad-ground situation, if that's the problem.

I just went to the vehicle to check things out, and here's what I found:
- the amp is grounded to the d/s wheel-well. The paint was not (as far

as

I can see) sanded away first, but a metal (piercing) screw was used.
- the grommet is separated from the head of the screw by a stack of
washers, likely to keep the screw from going so far through the housing

that

it pierces my tire.
- the cord is perhaps 24" long, spliced half-way (the amp was once

mounted

to the BMW, and so the wire only had to go a few inches to ground).
- I pulled the deck and checked the aerial; it's snuggly seated in the

deck

- I cannot check the connections in the wiring; they've been wrapped in
electical tape.
- I actually get TWO noises from the system; the first when I turn the

key

to the "accessories" stage, and then the alternator whine is added when I
turn it on.
- Of the two, the first (accessories-only stage) is louder.

I spoke with the install manager, and he suggests that it could be caused

by

a bad ground in any other system in the car. I didn't understand what

that

had to do with anything, since there was no noise prior to their
installation last week. The installation this week comprised simply of
pulling the old stereo out and sliding the new one in; that shouldn't have
been a factor. They offerred to check it out and cap the expense to me at
$200. I don't feel happy paying ANYTHING, let alone $200, to fix a

problem

that didn't exist before they did the installation last Saturday.

I've already called the Future Shop and asked that a manager get involved

to

help sort this out; I'm prepared to let the dude have my car all day (a
large inconvenience in itself) but I DON'T see that I should have to pay

for

it.


The rest of your post is very unnecessary. The actions of the install
manager are reprehensible. To even suggest to you that their installation
isn't the cause of your problem is absurd. Rain hell-fire and brimstone on
the store manager, and/or go right to corporate level and don't even dream
of spending another dime. I would recommend taking a print-out of this
thread with you to point out that you are sharing your terrible experience
with thousands of potential customers.
I live just north of Toronto, and would be willing to help you out in person
with this (I get really steamed when people get taken advantage of). I will
be going to the Ontario Renaissance Festival on Sunday (Trafalgar and Derry)
so that would be an ideal time to hook up and talk if you like.

Soundfreak03 wrote
BUT even running RCAs next to power wire 99% of the time causes zero
problems.
Bad grounds, loose broken etc. are usually the cause of whine.

I agree 100% with that statement, but this Future Shop, who is to say they
even used sheilded cable for the RCAs? You and I both know that there are
preferred ways to install things that simply take that item out of the
equation if problems do arise. It is possible that a garbage set of RCAs
(maybe damaged somehow) could certainly pick up noise. Anyway, from the look
of things, it's the head unit ground that is causing most of his problem,
and could be the amp ground causing the rest of it.

Amen to that, nuts and bolts are manufactured for a reason. Would I be
correct in my belief that the spare tire well is a great place to ground

Typically I would say so. They are usually a part of the main chassis, Not
welded on. Make sure you paint the paint away. Be careful before you drill, if
you do, the gas tank is typically close to the spare tire well.

Les