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#1
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Lets say we have a 2-way speaker using a passive x-over, 6.5" mid/woofer, and
a 1" dome tweeter. Would it be correct to say that for most music passages the mid/woofer would be drawing more power from the amp than the tweeter would? Does it take more power to produce low frequencies than it does to produce high frequencies? Now lets say we are running a 80W amp to the 2-way speaker and we are really blasting a hip hop song with a huge bass track and a lot of highs. Assume that the mid/woofer is drawing 50W of power from the amp. Is the tweet able to get access to 80W of power from the amp at the same time (since it is playing different frequencies) or is the tweet only able to get 80w-50W=30W? |
#2
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#3
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#4
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Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem
to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Now lets say we are running a 80W amp to the 2-way speaker and we are really blasting a hip hop song with a huge bass track and a lot of highs. Assume that the mid/woofer is drawing 50W of power from the amp. Is the tweet able to get access to 80W of power from the amp at the same time (since it is playing different frequencies) or is the tweet only able to get 80w-50W=30W? It ALL depends upon the spectral distribution of the power AT THAT MOMENT, and it all depends upon the crossover frequency. But to answer you more general question. If the total power of the amplifier is 80 watts, and it's already busy using 50 watts of it to do one, thing, then no matter what tehe other thing is, there's only 30 watts remaining to do whatever that is. |
#5
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Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem
to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Now lets say we are running a 80W amp to the 2-way speaker and we are really blasting a hip hop song with a huge bass track and a lot of highs. Assume that the mid/woofer is drawing 50W of power from the amp. Is the tweet able to get access to 80W of power from the amp at the same time (since it is playing different frequencies) or is the tweet only able to get 80w-50W=30W? It ALL depends upon the spectral distribution of the power AT THAT MOMENT, and it all depends upon the crossover frequency. But to answer you more general question. If the total power of the amplifier is 80 watts, and it's already busy using 50 watts of it to do one, thing, then no matter what tehe other thing is, there's only 30 watts remaining to do whatever that is. |
#6
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"ab" wrote in message
t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Maybe it would help if you explained why you want to know. |
#7
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"ab" wrote in message
t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Maybe it would help if you explained why you want to know. |
#8
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![]() "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Surely the second is nonsense. Consider the following hypothetical example: A perfectly efficient speaker is connected to an amplifier. A pure sine wave is fed into the amplifier at a frequency of 1kHz, and it's amplitude adjusted such that the 1W is fed to the speaker. The speaker would thus produce 1W worth of sound. Now assume the same is done for 2kHz, the speaker would produce 1W again. If these two signals are now mixed, then clearly 1W worth of sound is produced at two different frequencies, i.e. 2W. If the amplifier can only supply 1W total, then clearly something is wrong. Let us however assume that an amp rated a 1W, can output 1W to any frequency we want simultaneously. This solves the problem. If, however, we add a third frequency, or ten more, or a thousand more, then what? Does this mean that an amplifier rated as 1W can actually produce 1kW of power? How about if we use an infinite number of frequencies, infinite power out from the amp? Clearly this is nonsense, and a 1W amp can produce exactly that, 1W total power. Hope it is of help, and indeed correct! Christopher Key |
#9
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![]() "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. The other half of the people say an 80W amp supplies 80W to all frequencies across the audio spectrum. These people say that even if the woofer/mid is drawing 80W the tweeter can also draw 80W at the same exact time because it is reproducing different frequencies than the woofer/mid. I do not know which answer is correct. Surely the second is nonsense. Consider the following hypothetical example: A perfectly efficient speaker is connected to an amplifier. A pure sine wave is fed into the amplifier at a frequency of 1kHz, and it's amplitude adjusted such that the 1W is fed to the speaker. The speaker would thus produce 1W worth of sound. Now assume the same is done for 2kHz, the speaker would produce 1W again. If these two signals are now mixed, then clearly 1W worth of sound is produced at two different frequencies, i.e. 2W. If the amplifier can only supply 1W total, then clearly something is wrong. Let us however assume that an amp rated a 1W, can output 1W to any frequency we want simultaneously. This solves the problem. If, however, we add a third frequency, or ten more, or a thousand more, then what? Does this mean that an amplifier rated as 1W can actually produce 1kW of power? How about if we use an infinite number of frequencies, infinite power out from the amp? Clearly this is nonsense, and a 1W amp can produce exactly that, 1W total power. Hope it is of help, and indeed correct! Christopher Key |
#11
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#12
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#13
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#14
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Maybe it would help if you explained
why you want to know. I am just trying to understand how the power is delivered to the various components in a speaker. Thanks very much for all the replies. I appreciate it. I am configuring one of my amps in my car audio system. The amp is an 80x4 RMS @4-ohms unit and it is driving a pair of component speakers. The component speakers use a 6.5" mid, 1" silk tweeter, and a 3500hz 18db slope 2-way x-over. I was trying to use theory to determine if bridging the amp to 200x2 was a better option than bi-amping it to 80x4 without the passive x-over. The amp has the proper active x-over to make this work. I was thinking that in 200x2 mode the 6.5" woofer/mids would have access to more power than they would if I ran it bi-amped (80x4). My question about power consumption was created when I was discussing how the power would be distributed to the drivers during a bass heavy track. |
#15
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Maybe it would help if you explained
why you want to know. I am just trying to understand how the power is delivered to the various components in a speaker. Thanks very much for all the replies. I appreciate it. I am configuring one of my amps in my car audio system. The amp is an 80x4 RMS @4-ohms unit and it is driving a pair of component speakers. The component speakers use a 6.5" mid, 1" silk tweeter, and a 3500hz 18db slope 2-way x-over. I was trying to use theory to determine if bridging the amp to 200x2 was a better option than bi-amping it to 80x4 without the passive x-over. The amp has the proper active x-over to make this work. I was thinking that in 200x2 mode the 6.5" woofer/mids would have access to more power than they would if I ran it bi-amped (80x4). My question about power consumption was created when I was discussing how the power would be distributed to the drivers during a bass heavy track. |
#16
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In article ,
ab wrote: Lets say we have a 2-way speaker using a passive x-over, 6.5" mid/woofer, and a 1" dome tweeter. Would it be correct to say that for most music passages the mid/woofer would be drawing more power from the amp than the tweeter would? Yes, because music has more energy at lower frequencies. The energy above and below 350Hz is about equal. With 1200 and 3000 Hz cross-over frequencies, the tweeter is seeing just 35 and 15% of the total power. The actual cross-over should be someplace between those two. Does it take more power to produce low frequencies than it does to produce high frequencies? It takes the same acoustic power to reach a given output level regardless of frequency. Differences in efficiency and radiation patterns will change the electrical power it takes to get there. Now lets say we are running a 80W amp to the 2-way speaker and we are really blasting a hip hop song with a huge bass track and a lot of highs. Assume that the mid/woofer is drawing 50W of power from the amp. Is the tweet able to get access to 80W of power from the amp at the same time (since it is playing different frequencies) No. or is the tweet only able to get 80w-50W=30W? Given 8 Ohm tweeter and woofer impedances only 3.5W will be available to the tweeter and the amp will be putting out just 50+3.5 = 53.5W. If an amp will deliver 80W RMS into 8 Ohms, it can deliver 25.3 V RMS or 35.8V peak. 50W is 20V RMS or 28.3 V peak. So, when you have ~50W of bass you can add just 7.5V to the signal before it clips, which is 5.3V RMS or 3.5W into 8 Ohms. In real life it's a bit more complicated because speaker impedance varies with frequency, and either current or voltage can be limitting output. -- a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/"Home Page/a Life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease. |
#17
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In article ,
ab wrote: Lets say we have a 2-way speaker using a passive x-over, 6.5" mid/woofer, and a 1" dome tweeter. Would it be correct to say that for most music passages the mid/woofer would be drawing more power from the amp than the tweeter would? Yes, because music has more energy at lower frequencies. The energy above and below 350Hz is about equal. With 1200 and 3000 Hz cross-over frequencies, the tweeter is seeing just 35 and 15% of the total power. The actual cross-over should be someplace between those two. Does it take more power to produce low frequencies than it does to produce high frequencies? It takes the same acoustic power to reach a given output level regardless of frequency. Differences in efficiency and radiation patterns will change the electrical power it takes to get there. Now lets say we are running a 80W amp to the 2-way speaker and we are really blasting a hip hop song with a huge bass track and a lot of highs. Assume that the mid/woofer is drawing 50W of power from the amp. Is the tweet able to get access to 80W of power from the amp at the same time (since it is playing different frequencies) No. or is the tweet only able to get 80w-50W=30W? Given 8 Ohm tweeter and woofer impedances only 3.5W will be available to the tweeter and the amp will be putting out just 50+3.5 = 53.5W. If an amp will deliver 80W RMS into 8 Ohms, it can deliver 25.3 V RMS or 35.8V peak. 50W is 20V RMS or 28.3 V peak. So, when you have ~50W of bass you can add just 7.5V to the signal before it clips, which is 5.3V RMS or 3.5W into 8 Ohms. In real life it's a bit more complicated because speaker impedance varies with frequency, and either current or voltage can be limitting output. -- a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/"Home Page/a Life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease. |
#18
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Drew Eckhardt wrote:
In real life it's a bit more complicated because speaker impedance varies with frequency, and either current or voltage can be limitting output. And I thought the reason it's a bit more complicated was because real music doesn't consist of two unclipped continuous sine waves. ;^) |
#19
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Drew Eckhardt wrote:
In real life it's a bit more complicated because speaker impedance varies with frequency, and either current or voltage can be limitting output. And I thought the reason it's a bit more complicated was because real music doesn't consist of two unclipped continuous sine waves. ;^) |
#20
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![]() "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. And those people are right. It would be nice to get 160W out of an 80W amp by simply dividing up the frequency range, but it ain't gonna happen. Norm Strong |
#21
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![]() "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. And those people are right. It would be nice to get 160W out of an 80W amp by simply dividing up the frequency range, but it ain't gonna happen. Norm Strong |
#22
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"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:g_Prb.120183$ao4.372379@attbi_s51 "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. And those people are right. It would be nice to get 160W out of an 80W amp by simply dividing up the frequency range, but it ain't gonna happen. While its impossible to beat the law of conservation of energy, it is possible to win it and it's possible to lose it. Take two 50 watt amps. Either can handle a 20 volt RMS signal. Mix 200 and 4000 Hz 1:1, pass through an electronic crossover and then to the two amps. One amp handles signals above 1 KHz, the other handles signals below 1 KHz. Neither amp will clip until the voltage passing through it is 20 volts or more. If you don't divide the signals, it takes a power amp that can pass a 40 volt signal to amplify them without distortion. This would be a 200 watt amp. So, 2 50 watt amps can do the job of a 200 watt amp. However, if you are amplifying a single tone, the 200 watt amp can produce a 40 volt or 200 watt signal, while the two 50 watt amps are limited to producing a 50 watt signal. |
#23
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"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:g_Prb.120183$ao4.372379@attbi_s51 "ab" wrote in message t... Thanks for the response to my specific question below. Unfortunately I seem to get different answers to this question from everyone. Half the people agree with you. And those people are right. It would be nice to get 160W out of an 80W amp by simply dividing up the frequency range, but it ain't gonna happen. While its impossible to beat the law of conservation of energy, it is possible to win it and it's possible to lose it. Take two 50 watt amps. Either can handle a 20 volt RMS signal. Mix 200 and 4000 Hz 1:1, pass through an electronic crossover and then to the two amps. One amp handles signals above 1 KHz, the other handles signals below 1 KHz. Neither amp will clip until the voltage passing through it is 20 volts or more. If you don't divide the signals, it takes a power amp that can pass a 40 volt signal to amplify them without distortion. This would be a 200 watt amp. So, 2 50 watt amps can do the job of a 200 watt amp. However, if you are amplifying a single tone, the 200 watt amp can produce a 40 volt or 200 watt signal, while the two 50 watt amps are limited to producing a 50 watt signal. |
#24
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Take two 50 watt amps. Either can handle a 20 volt RMS signal. Mix 200 and 4000 Hz 1:1, pass through an electronic crossover and then to the two amps. One amp handles signals above 1 KHz, the other handles signals below 1 KHz. Neither amp will clip until the voltage passing through it is 20 volts or more. If you don't divide the signals, it takes a power amp that can pass a 40 volt signal to amplify them without distortion. This would be a 200 watt amp. So, 2 50 watt amps can do the job of a 200 watt amp. Take two 50 Watt amps. Either can handle a 20 * sqrt(2) = 28.3 Volt peak signal. Feed both amps a 1 KHz square wave and adjust for maximum output. Each amp produces the equivalent of a 50 W sine wave at 1 KHz, plus 50 W of odd harmonics, for a grand total of 200 Watts RMS. |
#25
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Take two 50 watt amps. Either can handle a 20 volt RMS signal. Mix 200 and 4000 Hz 1:1, pass through an electronic crossover and then to the two amps. One amp handles signals above 1 KHz, the other handles signals below 1 KHz. Neither amp will clip until the voltage passing through it is 20 volts or more. If you don't divide the signals, it takes a power amp that can pass a 40 volt signal to amplify them without distortion. This would be a 200 watt amp. So, 2 50 watt amps can do the job of a 200 watt amp. Take two 50 Watt amps. Either can handle a 20 * sqrt(2) = 28.3 Volt peak signal. Feed both amps a 1 KHz square wave and adjust for maximum output. Each amp produces the equivalent of a 50 W sine wave at 1 KHz, plus 50 W of odd harmonics, for a grand total of 200 Watts RMS. |
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