Hi,

I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.

Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
get it back to a blank fibreglass board?

Thanks, RdM

Ross Matheson wrote:

Hi,

I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.

Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
get it back to a blank fibreglass board?

Thanks, RdM


Scour the traces to bare copper with some ScotchBrite.
Put the board in a tank of etchant.
LV

In article ,
Ross Matheson wrote:

Hi,

I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.

Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
get it back to a blank fibreglass board?

Thanks, RdM

I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
real trick will be applying new traces.

Lord Valve offered the following advice:
in ,

: Ross Matheson wrote:
:
: Hi,
:
: I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
: SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
: quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
: thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
: sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.
:
: Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
: get it back to a blank fibreglass board?
:
: Thanks, RdM
:
:
: Scour the traces to bare copper with some ScotchBrite.
: Put the board in a tank of etchant.
: LV

Thanks! I wondered about heat, given experience with unwanted trace lifting,
but that was mainly on crummy pcbs. Going the whole etchant route occurred
to me, and I may have to do it, but I just thought I'd ask first. RM.

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

: In article ,
: Ross Matheson wrote:
:
: Hi,
:
: I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
: SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
: quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
: thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
: sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.
:
: Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
: get it back to a blank fibreglass board?
:
: Thanks, RdM
:
: I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
: and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
: real trick will be applying new traces.

Thanks Kevin - I don't want to apply new traces. I want to re-use it with
inserted rivet-tags (for want of a better word to describe them - I've
scored a ~500ml jar full of silver-plated double-tag eyelet things) or
turrets, in my own pattern of holes, afterward. With heat, I'd want enough
to just loosen the traces (which may be thick enough to "peel") but not
scorch the board. I may try a heatgun first, and if that fails, use etchant.
Obviously the heat method would be *far* cheaper:=}) I guess I'll try it.
Regards, RdM.

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.

Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
get it back to a blank fibreglass board?

Thanks, RdM

I used to do it with a knife to break and pull up a trace. Then the entire
trace could be peeled away from the board.

Ross Matheson wrote:

: I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
: and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
: real trick will be applying new traces.

Thanks Kevin - I don't want to apply new traces. I want to re-use it with
inserted rivet-tags (for want of a better word to describe them - I've
scored a ~500ml jar full of silver-plated double-tag eyelet things) or
turrets, in my own pattern of holes, afterward. With heat, I'd want enough
to just loosen the traces (which may be thick enough to "peel") but not
scorch the board. I may try a heatgun first, and if that fails, use etchant.
Obviously the heat method would be *far* cheaper:=})

Cheaper? In money perhaps, but not in time. Ferric cloride (or whatever
it's called in English) is very cheap.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

"Robert Morein" wrote:

: "Ross Matheson" wrote in message
: ...
: Hi,
:
: I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
: SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
: quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
: thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
: sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.
:
: Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
: get it back to a blank fibreglass board?
:
: Thanks, RdM
:
: I used to do it with a knife to break and pull up a trace. Then the entire
: trace could be peeled away from the board.

The mechanical option:=})
It's a possibility, given the trace thicknesses.
I've a few of the larger size, and a few more smaller.
Mostly up until now I had just stripped the HV electros and quality
resistors, but left the larger ones still screwed to their chassis.
Tonight I've been unscrewing the larger ones, and realised the quality!
A trial few passes on a corner with a sharp blade shows that it won't be
easy or practical on these, though - small bits and fibreglass shavings.
I haven't gotten out the heat gun yet - I'm still de-soldering parts.

At least one of these boards I suspect were junked unecessarily.
Typical output:
5.1V 3.5A
12.0V 0.3A
-12.0V 0.1A
24.0V 5.0A
24.0V 3.0A
24.0V 3.0A
24.0V 1.0A

Beautiful construction. Pity I can't re-wind or re-make into something else!
Salvaging the best of the parts and the pcb seems the best I can do with it.
Thanks for your input, Robert:-)
RdM

As if it matters: a slight error.
: 24.0V 1.0A
38.0V 1.0A
Sorry about the extensive cross-post.
I think I have enough to go on with now!
Reports later, if a successful blank pcb point-to-point conversion.
Thanks to all respondents:- RdM

Mikkel C. Simonsen wrote:
Ross Matheson wrote:

: I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
: and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
: real trick will be applying new traces.

Thanks Kevin - I don't want to apply new traces. I want to re-use it with
inserted rivet-tags (for want of a better word to describe them - I've
scored a ~500ml jar full of silver-plated double-tag eyelet things) or
turrets, in my own pattern of holes, afterward. With heat, I'd want enough
to just loosen the traces (which may be thick enough to "peel") but not
scorch the board. I may try a heatgun first, and if that fails, use etchant.
Obviously the heat method would be *far* cheaper:=})


Cheaper? In money perhaps, but not in time. Ferric cloride (or whatever
it's called in English) is very cheap.

Another option, not quite as cheap as ferric chloride (but a lot less
messy) is ammonium persulphate. It's what I use when I need to make PC
boards.

When using either reagent, the process is greatly accelerated if the
etchant bath is heated to around 60 Celsius.

Cheers,
Fred

--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

These aren't multilayer boards, are they? You'll never get the inside layers

out.

Ross Matheson wrote:

Hi,

I've been parting out some rather large junked but new-ish photocopier
SMPS boards, as large as ~ 11"x12" in ali chassis, and eyeing up the
quality fibreglass PCB itself. Wide traces and groundplane areas, and the
thought has occurred to me to strip off the actual traces and re-use
sections of the boards with eyelet tags or turrets for my own projects.

Any ideas as to how to go about effectively lifting the copper traces to
get it back to a blank fibreglass board?

I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
real trick will be applying new traces.


Heat works good. Use your soldering iron to heat a trace and use a blade to
lift a small bit then grab it with pliers. Working along with the iron and
pulling on it will get it off with no problems. On larger sections like
planes a heat gun will work too.

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

: "Ross Matheson" wrote in message
:
: Thanks Kevin - I don't want to apply new traces. I want to re-use it with
: inserted rivet-tags (for want of a better word to describe them - I've
: scored a ~500ml jar full of silver-plated double-tag eyelet things) or
: turrets, in my own pattern of holes, afterward.
:
: How bizarre ....
:
: geoff

As one of Donald Barthelmes characters said,
"The ane is sometimes inutile to the artist" :-)

They'll be better than this sort of (overpriced) thing, though;
http://www.tubebuilder.com/ptp%20boards.html
extremely cheap/free, customisable, and I get to recycle them:-)

For the investment of a little time, it saves me buying new fibreglass
boards (although I haven't looked up any prices;- do you know of a good NZ
supplier for blank fibreglass pcb stock, in case I wanted to start there?)
and I already have a jar of double tag rivet things - even normal small tag
strips cost a little, and don't have the flexibility of custom placement.

I just thought it might be an interesting experiment for point-to-point
wiring for tube amps - even just for prototyping - and so far, it is:=})

Ross

"Gilbert Bates" wrote:

: I don't know how you could possibly re-use it, but scortching it hard
: and fast with a blowtorch will make the traces easy to peel off. The
: real trick will be applying new traces.
:
:
: Heat works good. Use your soldering iron to heat a trace and use a blade to
: lift a small bit then grab it with pliers. Working along with the iron and
: pulling on it will get it off with no problems. On larger sections like
: planes a heat gun will work too.

So far this technique has worked extremely well, even with a small variable
20-200W iron. I'm going to get out the 100W iron with the massive tip:=)
[The only "heat gun" I have is a domestic hairdryer that is a workshop item]
Thanks for all the suggestions. All I need to do after is get off the green
lacquer and a bit of writing on the other side. Will try paint stripper;- I
need to buy a new can though. All in all this looks as though it will work
out, mainly because so many tracks are really wide high current ones.

I wouldn't have bothered with a pcb covered in fine traces, multilayer, etc.
Partly too this was inspired by the earlier point-to-point wiring thread on
rec.audio.tubes, and mention of turrets and fibreglass boards, etc.

I probably shouldn't have crossposted this at all, but ta for the x-replies.

Ross M

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message

They'll be better than this sort of (overpriced) thing, though;
http://www.tubebuilder.com/ptp%20boards.html
extremely cheap/free, customisable, and I get to recycle them:-)

For the investment of a little time, it saves me buying new fibreglass
boards (although I haven't looked up any prices;- do you know of a good NZ
supplier for blank fibreglass pcb stock, in case I wanted to start there?)
and I already have a jar of double tag rivet things - even normal small
tag
strips cost a little, and don't have the flexibility of custom placement.

I just thought it might be an interesting experiment for point-to-point
wiring for tube amps - even just for prototyping - and so far, it is:=})

Any number of electronic supplies companies sell raw PCB (clad) . Why not
actually make a PCB (easy-peasy) or strip the PCB down to fibreglass with
etchant, if you are dead set on doing this point-to-point thing.

The whole concept of ripping traces off ready made ( esp lacquered) PCBs it
just too bizarre (not to mention time-consuming) to contemplate, for me.
And even then, you'll end up with fibreglass board with a bunch of unrelated
holes in it. Do it 'properly' in the first place.

Or get phenolic tag-strips and do point-to-point wiring like they did
before PCBs were common.

geoff

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

: Any number of electronic supplies companies sell raw PCB (clad) . Why not
: actually make a PCB (easy-peasy) or strip the PCB down to fibreglass with
: etchant, if you are dead set on doing this point-to-point thing.

No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.

: The whole concept of ripping traces off ready made ( esp lacquered) PCBs it
: just too bizarre (not to mention time-consuming) to contemplate, for me.
: And even then, you'll end up with fibreglass board with a bunch of unrelated
: holes in it. Do it 'properly' in the first place.

Ah, it's just an exploratory one-off, so far, naive as that may seem - it's
a cheap kick-in to actually beginning prototyping, don't worry about it:-)

: Or get phenolic tag-strips and do point-to-point wiring like they did
: before PCBs were common.

I have some - and I have a guillotine that I may be able to chop this with.
The tags I have are better than the tag-strips. Extra holes are no problem.
Most of the traces are wide and easy. Still, I understand your reaction:=)
It's just a no/low-cost trial, utilising the available resources:=})

: geoff

Thanks,
ross

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

: Any number of electronic supplies companies sell raw PCB (clad) . Why
not
: actually make a PCB (easy-peasy) or strip the PCB down to fibreglass
with
: etchant, if you are dead set on doing this point-to-point thing.

No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.

How much do you think PCB costs ?

geoff

Just get some perfboard and wire it point to point, much easier than trying
this foolishness.

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

: Any number of electronic supplies companies sell raw PCB (clad) . Why
not
: actually make a PCB (easy-peasy) or strip the PCB down to fibreglass
with
: etchant, if you are dead set on doing this point-to-point thing.

No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.

: The whole concept of ripping traces off ready made ( esp lacquered) PCBs
it
: just too bizarre (not to mention time-consuming) to contemplate, for me.
: And even then, you'll end up with fibreglass board with a bunch of
unrelated
: holes in it. Do it 'properly' in the first place.

Ah, it's just an exploratory one-off, so far, naive as that may seem -
it's
a cheap kick-in to actually beginning prototyping, don't worry about it:-)

: Or get phenolic tag-strips and do point-to-point wiring like they did
: before PCBs were common.

I have some - and I have a guillotine that I may be able to chop this
with.
The tags I have are better than the tag-strips. Extra holes are no
problem.
Most of the traces are wide and easy. Still, I understand your reaction:=)
It's just a no/low-cost trial, utilising the available resources:=})

: geoff

Thanks,
ross

May I suggest using a 120 to 240 volt transformer. These are avail at local
electrical suppliers at current ratings up to several amps if you have he
money. Then modify the rectifiers to a voltage doubler. This should get you
very close to your 560 volts with a cap input filter.Get a xformer with taps
and you can tweak the voltage a bit. I have a couple of 120 to 480 xformers
with taps. Unfortunately they are rated at 2KVA. may be a little over kill.

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

: Any number of electronic supplies companies sell raw PCB (clad) . Why
not
: actually make a PCB (easy-peasy) or strip the PCB down to fibreglass
with
: etchant, if you are dead set on doing this point-to-point thing.

No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.

: The whole concept of ripping traces off ready made ( esp lacquered) PCBs
it
: just too bizarre (not to mention time-consuming) to contemplate, for me.
: And even then, you'll end up with fibreglass board with a bunch of
unrelated
: holes in it. Do it 'properly' in the first place.

Ah, it's just an exploratory one-off, so far, naive as that may seem -
it's
a cheap kick-in to actually beginning prototyping, don't worry about it:-)

: Or get phenolic tag-strips and do point-to-point wiring like they did
: before PCBs were common.

I have some - and I have a guillotine that I may be able to chop this
with.
The tags I have are better than the tag-strips. Extra holes are no
problem.
Most of the traces are wide and easy. Still, I understand your reaction:=)
It's just a no/low-cost trial, utilising the available resources:=})

: geoff

Thanks,
ross

Ferric Cloride


Clean off the solder-resist screen (stuff coveting the runners) with
solvent, go over with fine steel wool, dip in PCB etching liquid for about
15 mins, (available at any electronics store, includin' ****Shack), wash
with soap & water - Presto. Individual runners 9post-engineering f8ckups)
could be sliced through with an exacto 9tm) knife, and then you can pull
off
the offending runner, or simply take out a 3 mm section of it (make two
slices) to cut. Easier to buy a cheap-o PCB (they're cheap, and the
etching
stuff 9forgot the chem name) is cheap if you buy a gallon).
There are many sites on the net which take you through making your first
PC board, and many companies now offering short runs of your design. Some
even provide layout software. Have fun. I personally hate PCB's, but
there's little doubt that they're the easiest & best way of daling with
small-signal stuff. Look at some older & RF pc layouts, that's how I
learned. Use your printer & transparencies to line up both sides &
instantly see the errors, or do one side in red & one side in black &
print
out one over the other. Make sure you make corner hash marks. 'Luck.

: No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
: Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.
:
: How much do you think PCB costs ?
:
: geoff

How much do you think "broke" is? ;-)


RS Components costs plus transport would be an absurd expense:-)
I did ask after recommended sources, assuming there might be cheaper.

I just don't have the money to buy new pcb or anything right now, but an
hour or so has got me some practice PTP material to play with.

Yes, perhaps it seems redundant, given that a designed layout could be right
first time, but I see it as free tag/turret board trial/prototype material.

Sorry for the delayed replies - I've been out of town.


Couple of pics posted at

Bizarrely
RdM

I hate the way Free Agent immediately posts an unfinished (or even
draft!) article with a simple accidental bump of Ctrl-N :-)

: Couple of pics posted at
alt.binaries.pictures.radio

Thanks to those who replied with useful suggestions on my 'folly':=)
A moving 100W iron and a sharp blade stripped the traces quite easily.

To those who couldn't understand why I'd bother with such a "bizarre"
idea - apart from the convenience and cheapness of spending half an hour
or so with a hot iron and some steel wool to strip some pcb for some
eyelet tag layout experiments - not having etchant or blank pcb to hand
- you perhaps might not realise what being out of funds is really like!

Remember that this was a large multiple SMPS board, with some areas of
wide traces and few holes, a dumpster dive that I'd already parted out.
The idea was to try out a tube amp custom eyelet tag board layout.
Perhaps a mad-seeming idea, but it cost nothing, and I had the time.

My ISP is likely to cut me off tomorrow as it is ... I'll be back later!

Regards, RdM.

Ross Matheson wrote:

: No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
: Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time expenditure.
:
: How much do you think PCB costs ?
:
: geoff

How much do you think "broke" is? ;-)

RS Components costs plus transport would be an absurd expense:-)
I did ask after recommended sources, assuming there might be cheaper.

RS is a good place for absurd prices :-)

Most electronics stores sell 0.5 or 1kg packs of raw PCB material. It's
scrap from PCB factories, so the sizes vary.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

"Ross Matheson" wrote in message
...
: No funds to buy new PCB. Not up to making a PCB now, later sure.
: Stripping with the iron is right here, easy and a small time
expenditure.
:
: How much do you think PCB costs ?
:
: geoff

How much do you think "broke" is? ;-)



Dunno, but the PCB materials required would cost less than a couple of Big
Macs.


geoff