Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible, and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
cb

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:56:11 +0200, "Chris Berry"
wrote:

Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible, and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?

There is only one - the ATC 75mm dome, as used by PMC et al for
top-class monitors.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi Stewart,
I managed to locate that driver but there are 3 problems with it as far as I
can see.
1. It's not as efficient as needed.
2. The power handling is a little on the low side.
3. I'd need a pair because of the efficiency required (and the power
handling) which would cost me £600

To put things in a bit more perspective, my bass cab has cost me a total of
£150. Doubling the cost would be my absolute limit.

cb


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:56:11 +0200, "Chris Berry"
wrote:

Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible,
and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?

There is only one - the ATC 75mm dome, as used by PMC et al for
top-class monitors.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:15:26 +0200, "Chris Berry"
wrote:

Hi Stewart,
I managed to locate that driver but there are 3 problems with it as far as I
can see.

Well, I guess that depends on how you define 'problems'. :-)

1. It's not as efficient as needed.

You'll find more efficient drivers, but will you find 'good sound'?

2. The power handling is a little on the low side.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for those who use them in main studio
monitors. What the heck are you planning to do with them?

3. I'd need a pair because of the efficiency required (and the power
handling) which would cost me £600

Quality costs.

To put things in a bit more perspective, my bass cab has cost me a total of
£150. Doubling the cost would be my absolute limit.

Please forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your
delusion.....................

BTW, exactly why do you need a midrange unit for a bass guitar?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

1. It's not as efficient as needed.

You'll find more efficient drivers, but will you find 'good sound'?

As I said before, I need a single driver to complement a delta 12 LF for
construction reasons (will end up in the same cab).



2. The power handling is a little on the low side.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for those who use them in main studio
monitors. What the heck are you planning to do with them?

It's for a bass guitar cabinet. Most people go for a tweeter with a 12",
2x10" or 15" bass driver. I really don't like the sound of tweeters.
Another solution that a lot of bass players go for is to go for a 2x10" +
tweeter enclosure. This doesn't reproduce deep bass on the bottom strings
very well as the 10" drivers used are essentially mid/woofers (-3db
@60-70Hz). a single 10" cab + my 12" (which is flat to 35 Hz BTW) would work
OK as would a 2x10". I really don't want another cab though if possible
hence the idea of a smaller efficient midrange to handle 500-7kHz under
£100. The Delta 12 LF doesn't sound sweet above about 1.5kHz so a midrange
that's good in that range would solve the problem. Yes, I have an active
crossover and biamp it at the moment.



3. I'd need a pair because of the efficiency required (and the power
handling) which would cost me £600

Quality costs.

It sure does but that driver is well out of any budget I have for this
project.


To put things in a bit more perspective, my bass cab has cost me a total
of
£150. Doubling the cost would be my absolute limit.

Please forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your
delusion.....................

It's not a delusion I assure you. There are some really good designs out
there that get around this...


BTW, exactly why do you need a midrange unit for a bass guitar?

Low mid is where most of the action happens for bass guitar - not 40Hz which
is why so many bassists get away with 2 midrange speakers and no bass
speaker. I kind of like having the bottom there and well defined which is
why I've got a single 12" + fullrange on the end of my biamp/crossover. The
12" handles the low mid famously but the detail is in the med-high mids.
Nothing much above 7khz at all.

cb

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:23:12 +0200, "Chris Berry"
wrote:

BTW, exactly why do you need a midrange unit for a bass guitar?

Low mid is where most of the action happens for bass guitar - not 40Hz which
is why so many bassists get away with 2 midrange speakers and no bass
speaker. I kind of like having the bottom there and well defined which is
why I've got a single 12" + fullrange on the end of my biamp/crossover. The
12" handles the low mid famously but the detail is in the med-high mids.
Nothing much above 7khz at all.

Actualy, nothing much above 700Hz. As I previously noted, please
forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your delusion...

OTOH, this is a *reproduction* newsgroup. Perhaps you might find what
you want on one of the more performance-based newsgroups? Sounds like
what you really want is a PA system.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...


Actualy, nothing much above 700Hz. As I previously noted, please
forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your delusion...

OTOH, this is a *reproduction* newsgroup. Perhaps you might find what
you want on one of the more performance-based newsgroups? Sounds like
what you really want is a PA system.


Are there any PA NG's?
cb

"Chris Berry" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible, and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?

How about a JBL 2118, 8" midrange if it's within your budget. It may not be
small, but it doesn't require much cabinet space.

Fred.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:19:05 +0200, "Chris Berry"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...


Actualy, nothing much above 700Hz. As I previously noted, please
forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your delusion...

OTOH, this is a *reproduction* newsgroup. Perhaps you might find what
you want on one of the more performance-based newsgroups? Sounds like
what you really want is a PA system.


Are there any PA NG's?

Not that I'm aware of, but there's rec.audio.production, which is more
biased towards the pro-audio market. Perhaps somebody there can head
you in the right direction.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Chris Berry" wrote in message ...
Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible, and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
cb

You need a midrange that can not only take a lot of input power, but
can put out a lot of acoustic power, without breaking up.

Try four medium priced, 5 in woofers, wired in series parallel. Small
woofers typically have a longer throw than midranges, and can put out
more undistorted power.

The Vifa P13WH-OO, (on my old price sheet) is $36. It can take 40
Watts input power. 4 X $36 = $144. 4 X 40 = 160 Watts.

Put the drivers in *small*, sealed, enclousres, (inside your bass
enclosure). Don't make the enclosures so small that the resonant
frequency goes above 200 Hz.

Bob Stanton

Thanks Fred,
It's one of the better suggestions that I've had so far.
I kind of like the idea of multiples as well as that makes for wider
dispersion.
cb

In article , (Bob-Stanton) wrote:
"Chris Berry" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
I'm looking for a midrange that sounds good, is as small as possible, and
with sufficient efficiency and power handling to complement an eminence
delta 12 LF for bass guitar.
I'm really stumped and the nearest thing I can come up with is a B&C 6"
driver that'sjust on the low side for the power handling.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
cb

You need a midrange that can not only take a lot of input power, but
can put out a lot of acoustic power, without breaking up.

Try four medium priced, 5 in woofers, wired in series parallel. Small
woofers typically have a longer throw than midranges, and can put out
more undistorted power.

The Vifa P13WH-OO, (on my old price sheet) is $36. It can take 40
Watts input power. 4 X $36 = $144. 4 X 40 = 160 Watts.

Multiple drivers is the way to go. The rating on these drivers will go to 160 watts
in series. Another parallel pair will take 420 watts equivalant drive voltage.

greg

"Chris Berry" wrote in message
...
Thanks Fred,
It's one of the better suggestions that I've had so far.
I kind of like the idea of multiples as well as that makes for wider
dispersion.

And more phase cancellation response problems though. You will probably not
get the same sensitivity as a single 2118 either.

TonyP.

I would use a horn:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...&St=5402&St2=-
48833969&St3=70223117&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=7324&DID= 7

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=264-225
&ctab=1

105dB 1W/1M

Tim

In article , Browntimdc wrote:
I would use a horn:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...&St=5402&St2=-
48833969&St3=70223117&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=7324&DID =7

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=264-225
&ctab=1

As I said on another group, multiple drivers is the way to go. 5-6 inchers.
Your going to have a tough time getting much below 800 Hz with typical horns.
In fact this one is NOT really a MID RANGE. It crosses over around 2 kHz.
I have made horns using small drivers, and they work well, but
are not as smooth as a non loaded driver.

greg

(GregS) wrote in
:

In article , Browntimdc
wrote:
I would use a horn:
Your going to have a tough time getting much below 800 Hz
with typical horns.

HE doesn't need to go that low.

In fact this one is NOT really a MID RANGE. It
crosses over around 2 kHz.

Then he can use a bigger lens to go lower.

I have made horns using small drivers, and
they work well, but are not as smooth as a non loaded driver.

How smooth does a bass guitar need to be?

Tim

"Chris Berry" wrote in news:bfugmv$6gl$04$1
@news.t-online.com:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...


Actualy, nothing much above 700Hz. As I previously noted, please
forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your delusion...

Obviously someone has never heard of Stanley Clarke

GregS wrote:

As I said on another group, multiple drivers is the way to go. 5-6 inchers.

The risk here is that interference effects can make multiple drivers sound
*NASTY* if the cabinet is not designed very very carefully. It can work
but a single device is a far simpler proposition for most applications.

Your going to have a tough time getting much below 800 Hz with typical
horns.

I have seen horn loading used down to around 30hz but you have to array
multiple boxes to get the mouth area required (only really practical in
the context of a large PA system).

To the OP: When you say that you do not like tweeters, is this a general
statement or a comment about for example piezo 'horns' which do indeed
sound NASTY. If it is just a piezo thing you could try a proper 1 inch
compression driver (which will need a crossover), they tend to be a
major improvement on anything piezo based!

Regards, Dan.
--
** The email address *IS* valid, do NOT remove the spamblock
And on the evening of the first day the lord said...........
..... LX 1, GO!; and there was light.

In article , Browntimdc wrote:
"Chris Berry" wrote in news:bfugmv$6gl$04$1
:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...


Actualy, nothing much above 700Hz. As I previously noted, please
forgive me if I do not accept your invitation to join your delusion...

Obviously someone has never heard of Stanley Clarke

I think most basses don't have enough low energy. The bass boxes need
real large drivers or low resonances, to get low.

greg

In article , wrote:
GregS wrote:

As I said on another group, multiple drivers is the way to go. 5-6 inchers.

The risk here is that interference effects can make multiple drivers sound
*NASTY* if the cabinet is not designed very very carefully. It can work
but a single device is a far simpler proposition for most applications.

Your going to have a tough time getting much below 800 Hz with typical
horns.

I have seen horn loading used down to around 30hz but you have to array
multiple boxes to get the mouth area required (only really practical in
the context of a large PA system).

You can use all the mouth you want, but you still need fundamental resonace
to somewhere down in cutoff region, otherwise its a waste of space.

To the OP: When you say that you do not like tweeters, is this a general
statement or a comment about for example piezo 'horns' which do indeed
sound NASTY. If it is just a piezo thing you could try a proper 1 inch

By tweeters I'm talking about PA stuff down to maybe 1 kHz. In that range where
the ear is most sensitive, any peaks or disturbances are most critical to easy
listening, or ear fatique. Most all horns have on axis peaks unless they use big wide
refractor and reflection plates. Using horn tweeters above 5 kHz is mandatory for
high SPL.

greg