Recently, my interest in bookshelf speakers has declined, as I reluctantly
concluded that none of the mid-priced two-way offerings I've been have the
midrange clarity of my floor-standers, with the exception of the Spicas at
moderate volume levels.

The recent B&W offerings have been panned for a "thin" sound, though they
may have excellent clarity.

Various exotic offerings have appeared over the years. I once had NEAR
10me's, with massive magnet structures and metal drivers, but they sounded
very soft and vague in the mids.

The physical principles of cone rigidity and directionality that hamper two
way bookshelf speakers are well known. It appears that the attempt to extend
the response downward, or to jigger the response curve to give the illusion
of more bass, have a strongly negative effect on midrange clarity, compared
to three-way speakers where the midrange driver is physically small and/or
light.

However, the advances in materials have been remarkable, which implies that
every so often, one should reevaluate. Personally, I'm not familiar with
high-end offerings in this area, because one pays so much "to get so
little."

Opinions?

The little stand-mount Sonus Fabers (don't remember the model) are
supposed to be superb.

I tried to listen to them at Tweeters, and think I would have liked them, but
every time I got the volume where I wanted it, the salesmoron kept turning it
up because "you gotta hear it *here*" -- as if I couldn't hear it at the volume
I wanted. So I'm sticking with my Spendors, my B&Ws and my Paradigms.

llhope (Christopher) said:

The little stand-mount Sonus Fabers (don't remember the model) are
supposed to be superb.

I tried to listen to them at Tweeters, and think I would have liked them, but
every time I got the volume where I wanted it, the salesmoron kept turning it
up because "you gotta hear it *here*" -- as if I couldn't hear it at the volume
I wanted. So I'm sticking with my Spendors, my B&Ws and my Paradigms.

Salesdroids are to be removed from serious listening sessions.
Tell him to go work for Woofers.

Find another store. A serious audio store wouldn't allow for something
to happen.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

farrell22 wrote:


The little stand-mount Sonus Fabers (don't remember the model) are
supposed to be superb.

I tried to listen to them at Tweeters, and think I would have liked them, but
every time I got the volume where I wanted it, the salesmoron kept turning it
up because "you gotta hear it *here*" -- as if I couldn't hear it at the
volume
I wanted. So I'm sticking with my Spendors, my B&Ws and my Paradigms.








Beware of salesdroids that want to boost the volume of products they're trying
to push.. It's commonly known that often the louder of 2 products being
compared will appear to sound "better" irrespective of any actual differences
in quality.

The volume preferred by somebody else is also quite irrelevant to your
listening preferences.



Bruce J. Richman

From: Sander deWaal

(Christopher) said:

The little stand-mount Sonus Fabers (don't remember the model) are
supposed to be superb.

I tried to listen to them at Tweeters, and think I would have liked them,
but
every time I got the volume where I wanted it, the salesmoron kept turning
it
up because "you gotta hear it *here*" -- as if I couldn't hear it at the
volume
I wanted. So I'm sticking with my Spendors, my B&Ws and my Paradigms.

Salesdroids are to be removed from serious listening sessions.
Tell him to go work for Woofers.

Find another store. A serious audio store wouldn't allow for something
to happen.

I imagine if Tweeters is who's carrying them in a particular area, they're the
only ones who are carrying them.

I certainly wouldn't buy anything at Tweeters. That's for sure.

From: (Bruce J. Richman)

The volume preferred by somebody else is also quite irrelevant to your
listening preferences.

Exactly my point. I listen to music, I think, at a much lower volume than 90%
of the rest of the universe. Usually salesepeople get that, but there's always
an asshole somewhere.

Beware of salesdroids that want to boost the volume of products they're
trying
to push.. It's commonly known that often the louder of 2 products being
compared will appear to sound "better" irrespective of any actual differences
in quality.

When I go to a chain store like Tweeters, I wonder if they aren't instructed to
play it louder, for the reason you give.

And the guy wouldn't stop playing multichannel, either. You can believe I
didn't feel like coming back later with my own listening material (most of
which would have been on LP -- oh, horror -- anyway).

llhope (Christopher) said:

Find another store. A serious audio store wouldn't allow for something
to happen.

I imagine if Tweeters is who's carrying them in a particular area, they're the
only ones who are carrying them.

Depends on what area you're living in.
I'm not from the US, but certainly some American friend can join in
and advise you where to go to if you let us know your whereabouts.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

farrell22 wrote:


From: (Bruce J. Richman)

The volume preferred by somebody else is also quite irrelevant to your
listening preferences.

Exactly my point. I listen to music, I think, at a much lower volume than 90%
of the rest of the universe. Usually salesepeople get that, but there's
always
an asshole somewhere.

Beware of salesdroids that want to boost the volume of products they're
trying
to push.. It's commonly known that often the louder of 2 products being
compared will appear to sound "better" irrespective of any actual
differences
in quality.

When I go to a chain store like Tweeters, I wonder if they aren't instructed
to
play it louder, for the reason you give.


There's no way you can tell, of course, but it wouldn't surprise me if/when a
salesperson tries to boost sales of slow-moving items by playing with the
volume controls of a given product - especially when trying to make a customer
believe that the given product is "better" than another one.

The salespeople and/or stores I respect the most are those that basically say
as little as possible (other than to answer questions I might have) and let the
listener adjust the volume control to his preference and then listen at
leisure.


And the guy wouldn't stop playing multichannel, either.

Well, there's more profit to be made in selling more channels .






You can believe I
didn't feel like coming back later with my own listening material (most of
which would have been on LP -- oh, horror -- anyway).




Hopefully, you'll be able to find a store like I did, which had turntables
hooked up to various components, allowed me to audition my own LPs, and
basically got out of the way while I compared various things using music with
which I was very familiar. (I was also able to compare various CD players with
some turntables, because I tend to favor CD players that sound similar, IMHO,
to what I get from analogue playback. Fortunately, I found a CD system with a
tubed DAC that met my needs).

I don't know what your budget is, but FWIW, I highly recommendd VPI
tuintables. As you may already know, they make a fairly broad range of models
at different price points. They are all built like tanks. And if you want to
get something basic like a VPI Jr., it is upgradeable through parts swaps later
should you wish to do so. The company is also very good for customer service.
(One of their newest models, the VPI Scout has been very favorably received by
many users. Art Dudley reviewed it in Stereophile and you can find many
comments on it in the Vinyl Asylum section of Audio Asylum).



Bruce J. Richman

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" emitted :

[snip]

Without specifying a model the term floorstander seems a bit
misleading in the context of this discussion - many are of course
bookshelfs with an extended cabinet encapsulating a separate enclosure
for the woofer - hardly a radical departure. Having A/B'd some
counterpoint examples like this it's rarely the case that the
floorstander whooops the equivalent bookshelf's ass wrt clarity. (On
the contrary.) The floorstanders you use presumably do not fall into
this category and have better drivers, cabinets or whatever to begin
with to make such a big difference..

It seems to me you are complaining about the laws of physics and the
cost of addressing the laws of physics

That's a good way of putting it.

However, it's not simply a matter of driver quality.
A 5" midbass driver for a two-way bookshelf is usually mass loaded and
designed for high excursion. A driver of the same diameter incorporated into
a "floorstander", which, perhaps confusingly, I equate with a 3-way system,
has a light cone and is not designed for high excursion. Nor is the unitary
motion of the cone stressed by large impulses.

The audibility of Doppler distortion has been debated, but physically, at
least, the effect is tonal smearing of midrange frequencies generated by a
cone moving at bass frequencies.

Some of these issues can be addressed by driver construction, and others
cannot. Besides, I'm not relying on theory to predict what I will hear.

From: Paul Dormer

"Christopher" emitted :

The little stand-mount Sonus Fabers (don't remember the model) are
supposed to be superb.

I tried to listen to them at Tweeters, and think I would have liked them,
but
every time I got the volume where I wanted it, the salesmoron kept turning
it
up because "you gotta hear it *here*" -- as if I couldn't hear it at the
volume
I wanted. So I'm sticking with my Spendors, my B&Ws and my Paradigms.


Perhaps the salesman wanted you to hear the speakers operating within
their best operating range.

*Their* best operating range is *my* best operating range.


Was he in love with the Fabers?

In fact, he said he had a pair.

He may
have been over enthusiastic.. lacking in awareness.

Ding, ding, ding.

I was once played
a track at gut churning levels by some music production dudes who were
in love with themselves. So loud that they couldn't hear me *shouting*
at them to turn it down... from two feet away.

farrell22 wrote:


From: (Bruce J. Richman)

And the guy wouldn't stop playing multichannel, either.

Well, there's more profit to be made in selling more channels .

Not to me, baby. Not to me. Viva los records.







Can I hear an "Amen", brothers and sisters?



Bruce J. Richman

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
farrell22 wrote:


From: (Bruce J. Richman)

And the guy wouldn't stop playing multichannel, either.

Well, there's more profit to be made in selling more channels .

Not to me, baby. Not to me. Viva los records.







Can I hear an "Amen", brothers and sisters?




Sure, check out some Five Blind Boys lp's.

Art wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
farrell22 wrote:


From: (Bruce J. Richman)

And the guy wouldn't stop playing multichannel, either.

Well, there's more profit to be made in selling more channels .

Not to me, baby. Not to me. Viva los records.







Can I hear an "Amen", brothers and sisters?




Sure, check out some Five Blind Boys lp's.










OK , after I finish listening to the Edwin Hawkins Singers, Joe & Eddie (highly
recoomended on vinyl), and on seedee, the Fairfield Four.



Bruce J. Richman

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:48:24 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

Recently, my interest in bookshelf speakers has declined, as I reluctantly
concluded that none of the mid-priced two-way offerings I've been have the
midrange clarity of my floor-standers, with the exception of the Spicas at
moderate volume levels.

The recent B&W offerings have been panned for a "thin" sound, though they
may have excellent clarity.

Various exotic offerings have appeared over the years. I once had NEAR
10me's, with massive magnet structures and metal drivers, but they sounded
very soft and vague in the mids.

The physical principles of cone rigidity and directionality that hamper two
way bookshelf speakers are well known. It appears that the attempt to extend
the response downward, or to jigger the response curve to give the illusion
of more bass, have a strongly negative effect on midrange clarity, compared
to three-way speakers where the midrange driver is physically small and/or
light.

However, the advances in materials have been remarkable, which implies that
every so often, one should reevaluate. Personally, I'm not familiar with
high-end offerings in this area, because one pays so much "to get so
little."

Opinions?


Green Mountain Audio Europas. Extremely heavy (43lbs each) cast marble
enclosure, time and phase coherent. New list was $880, they can be had
used around $700. A new version is due out in a couple of weeks.
Very nice midrange, sweet highs, a little weak in the bass.
John