I've got an old Sony PS-LX2 turntable -- went back into its box 15 or so
years ago, as I moved on from vinyl . . . now, like a lot of people, I
want to go back -- pull the LPs from the cabinets and spin them again.
My question is this -- what's happened to turntable design since I
put mine away? The Sony was a decent mid-range machine back when, but
are newer models kinder to the discs, less likely to put unwonted wear
on them?
And will I get drastically improved sound from a moderate or
higher-end model on the market today?
What's available, under $1000, that would represent a wilder
upgrade in sound and put less wear on the discs? Will finding parts for
the old Sony be a serious problem?

From: Lloyd Fonvielle

What's available, under $1000, that would represent a wilder
upgrade in sound and put less wear on the discs?

http://audioadvisor.com/store/catego...ntables&sel=1&
CategoryID=60

Look at the VPI HW-19 Jr and the Thorens tables under $1000.

If you want to spend a little more, aa is selling the VPI Aries Scout
w/Dynavector 10x5 cartridge for a really good price, $1765.

Or go to rega's website and find a dealer near you:
http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

These are a lot of people's only choice under $1000.

Hope this helps.

It's a great help -- thanks!
Do you happen to know if there have been significant improvements
in the tracking mechanisms of modern turntables which result in less
wear on the vinyl -- or will I simply get better sound with something
newer than my old Sony PS-LX2?

Christopher wrote:
From: Lloyd Fonvielle


What's available, under $1000, that would represent a wilder
upgrade in sound and put less wear on the discs?


http://audioadvisor.com/store/catego...ntables&sel=1&
CategoryID=60

Look at the VPI HW-19 Jr and the Thorens tables under $1000.

If you want to spend a little more, aa is selling the VPI Aries Scout
w/Dynavector 10x5 cartridge for a really good price, $1765.

Or go to rega's website and find a dealer near you:
http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

These are a lot of people's only choice under $1000.

Hope this helps.

You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the subject.


GeoSynch


"Lloyd Fonvielle" wrote in message
ink.net...
It's a great help -- thanks!
Do you happen to know if there have been significant improvements
in the tracking mechanisms of modern turntables which result in less
wear on the vinyl -- or will I simply get better sound with something
newer than my old Sony PS-LX2?

Christopher wrote:
From: Lloyd Fonvielle


What's available, under $1000, that would represent a wilder
upgrade in sound and put less wear on the discs?


http://audioadvisor.com/store/catego...ntables&sel=1&
CategoryID=60

Look at the VPI HW-19 Jr and the Thorens tables under $1000.

If you want to spend a little more, aa is selling the VPI Aries Scout
w/Dynavector 10x5 cartridge for a really good price, $1765.

Or go to rega's website and find a dealer near you:
http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

These are a lot of people's only choice under $1000.

Hope this helps.

GeoSynch wrote:


You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the subject.


GeoSynch


"Lloyd Fonvielle" wrote in message
link.net...
It's a great help -- thanks!
Do you happen to know if there have been significant improvements
in the tracking mechanisms of modern turntables which result in less
wear on the vinyl -- or will I simply get better sound with something
newer than my old Sony PS-LX2?

Christopher wrote:
From: Lloyd Fonvielle


What's available, under $1000, that would represent a wilder
upgrade in sound and put less wear on the discs?



http://audioadvisor.com/store/catego...ntables&sel=1&
CategoryID=60

Look at the VPI HW-19 Jr and the Thorens tables under $1000.

If you want to spend a little more, aa is selling the VPI Aries Scout
w/Dynavector 10x5 cartridge for a really good price, $1765.

Or go to rega's website and find a dealer near you:
http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

These are a lot of people's only choice under $1000.

Hope this helps.











As a former owner of a VPI HW-19 Jr. (and current owner of other VPI
products), I can tell you that the least expensive VPI is, like their other
models, built like a tank with excellent quality parts. It is often sold with
either an Audioquest or Rega arm and something like one of the Grado
cartridges. IMHO, you get a lot of bang for the buck with one of these
combinations. Another nice thing about the VPI Jr. table is that if/when your
desires and/or budget increase, the table can be upgraded to one of the better
models by simply swampping some of the parts - e.g. heavier platter, suspension
improvements, etc.

FWIW, I haven't had a chance to personally audition the VPI Scout, which comes
with one of VPI's excellent tonearms, but many favorable comments have come
from both professional reviewers and user/hobbyists on some of the Internet
audio forums.


Bruce J. Richman

GeoSynch wrote:

You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the subject.

Thanks for pointing to this site. Fremer's stuff is fascinating to read
but he's reviewing stuff that's way out of my range -- from a few
thousand dollars to 73 thousand dollars! I love my LPs, want to protect
them and have them sound as good as possible, but I have other interests
in life as well, including food, clothing and housing.
There doesn't seem to be much help out there for someone who wants
a superlative COMPROMISE -- somewhere far short of the outer limits of
what's technologically possible.
A good machine under a thousand dollars (or even 2 thousand
dollars!) capable of playing LPs, 45s and 78s, putting as little wear on
the discs as possible, but delivering the kind of a full rich sound that
CDs just can't provide.
Given those middle-of-the-road parameters, is there anything out
there better than the Thorens TD-190?
How much better would this machine perform than my old Sony PS-LX2?

Bruce J. Richman wrote:

As a former owner of a VPI HW-19 Jr. (and current owner of other VPI
products), I can tell you that the least expensive VPI is, like their other
models, built like a tank with excellent quality parts. It is often sold with
either an Audioquest or Rega arm and something like one of the Grado
cartridges. IMHO, you get a lot of bang for the buck with one of these
combinations. Another nice thing about the VPI Jr. table is that if/when your
desires and/or budget increase, the table can be upgraded to one of the better
models by simply swampping some of the parts - e.g. heavier platter, suspension
improvements, etc.

FWIW, I haven't had a chance to personally audition the VPI Scout, which comes
with one of VPI's excellent tonearms, but many favorable comments have come
from both professional reviewers and user/hobbyists on some of the Internet
audio forums.

It sounds like a fine machine, which can be had for a reasonable price,
considering -- but I think it only has one speed. What the heck would I
do with my 45s?

Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:

You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the subject.

Thanks for pointing to this site. Fremer's stuff is fascinating to read
but he's reviewing stuff that's way out of my range -- from a few
thousand dollars to 73 thousand dollars! I love my LPs, want to protect
them and have them sound as good as possible, but I have other interests
in life as well, including food, clothing and housing.
There doesn't seem to be much help out there for someone who wants
a superlative COMPROMISE -- somewhere far short of the outer limits of
what's technologically possible.
A good machine under a thousand dollars (or even 2 thousand
dollars!) capable of playing LPs, 45s and 78s, putting as little wear on
the discs as possible, but delivering the kind of a full rich sound that
CDs just can't provide.
Given those middle-of-the-road parameters, is there anything out
there better than the Thorens TD-190?
How much better would this machine perform than my old Sony PS-LX2?


Have a look at www.amusicdirect.com for a Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject turntables,
which all cost well under a grand, won't do any harm to new or existing LPs, play
exceptionally well both 33s and 45s but not 78 (what on earth do you need that for?).


GeoSynch

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:20:55 GMT, Lloyd Fonvielle
wrote:

GeoSynch wrote:

You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the subject.

Thanks for pointing to this site. Fremer's stuff is fascinating to read
but he's reviewing stuff that's way out of my range -- from a few
thousand dollars to 73 thousand dollars! I love my LPs, want to protect
them and have them sound as good as possible, but I have other interests
in life as well, including food, clothing and housing.
There doesn't seem to be much help out there for someone who wants
a superlative COMPROMISE -- somewhere far short of the outer limits of
what's technologically possible.
A good machine under a thousand dollars (or even 2 thousand
dollars!) capable of playing LPs, 45s and 78s, putting as little wear on
the discs as possible, but delivering the kind of a full rich sound that
CDs just can't provide.
Given those middle-of-the-road parameters, is there anything out
there better than the Thorens TD-190?
How much better would this machine perform than my old Sony PS-LX2?

Get yourself a ProJect turntable from Sumiko.

The problem that you're going to have is playing 78s. You might want
to get a separate 78 capable turntable from eBay. I got my Project 1
turntable for about $120 delivered on eBay, so if you can find
something comparable (most of the time they go for around $200 when
you can find them, so I was pretty lucky), you'll still have plenty of
money to buy the second turntable for 78s.

My turntable sounds really good. I had a Thorens 321 with a Mayware
arm for years (with quite a few good budget cartridges) and it was
obvious that the ProJect was a little more detailed and satisfying
right out of the box.

The new entry level model is no longer called the 1. It's called The
Debut II. It runs $279 list, the main difference seeming to be the
fact that it comes with an Ortifon cartridge at that price, instead of
the Sumiko Oyster that used to come with it.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/debut.htm

Here are the other models:

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/rm9.htm
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/p...erspective.htm
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/rm6sb.htm
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/p..._xpression.htm

They make an optional "speed box" that might make 78 possible, but
it's not totally clear from the site whether it's compatable with all
models (it isn't compatable with the most expensive model because it's
already electronically speed control). I'd write them just to make
sure, if you decide to go that route.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/p...s/speedbox.htm

The VPI turntables are very good as well, and you're going to *start*
close to $1000. The Project turntables are simple, well-made products
that sound good.

dave weil said:

They make an optional "speed box" that might make 78 possible, but
it's not totally clear from the site whether it's compatable with all
models (it isn't compatable with the most expensive model because it's
already electronically speed control). I'd write them just to make
sure, if you decide to go that route.

There's more involved to play 78-ers than just speed.
Needle dimensions, tracking force, antiskating.........
Not to mention the possibility of vertical vs. horizontal cutting.
Therefor, it's important to use a STEREO cartridge, as this type can
handle lateral movements.

Then there's the variety of equalizing characteristics that were used.
The latter can be done via software, I suppose.
One could also build a dedicated preamp with a selector switch for
most equalizing time constants.
I once did this for a client of mine.
9 different eq curves, 6 tubes and a separate power supply.
AFAIK, the guy is still using it, to his utmost pleasure.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

GeoSynch wrote:

Have a look at www.amusicdirect.com for a Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject turntables,
which all cost well under a grand, won't do any harm to new or existing LPs, play
exceptionally well both 33s and 45s but not 78 (what on earth do you need that for?).

To play 78s?

I'll check out the link, though -- thanks . . .

Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:


Bruce J. Richman wrote:

As a former owner of a VPI HW-19 Jr. (and current owner of other VPI
products), I can tell you that the least expensive VPI is, like their other
models, built like a tank with excellent quality parts. It is often sold
with
either an Audioquest or Rega arm and something like one of the Grado
cartridges. IMHO, you get a lot of bang for the buck with one of these
combinations. Another nice thing about the VPI Jr. table is that if/when
your
desires and/or budget increase, the table can be upgraded to one of the
better
models by simply swampping some of the parts - e.g. heavier platter,
suspension
improvements, etc.

FWIW, I haven't had a chance to personally audition the VPI Scout, which
comes
with one of VPI's excellent tonearms, but many favorable comments have come
from both professional reviewers and user/hobbyists on some of the Internet
audio forums.

It sounds like a fine machine, which can be had for a reasonable price,
considering -- but I think it only has one speed. What the heck would I
do with my 45s?









All of the VPI models play both 33s and 45s, so that will not be a problem.



Bruce J. Richman

"Lloyd Fonvielle" wrote

A good machine under a thousand dollars (or even 2
thousand dollars!) capable of playing LPs, 45s and 78s,
putting as little wear on the discs as possible, but delivering
the kind of a full rich sound that CDs just can't provide.
Given those middle-of-the-road parameters, is there
anything out there better than the Thorens TD-190?

It would not be advisable to use the same phono cartridge
for 33s as 78s. The composition used to make 78s and
the varying grove width will shorted the life of the stylus
greatly.

See: http://www.stantondj.com/alpha44/load.asp?page=78rpm

Powell wrote:

It would not be advisable to use the same phono cartridge
for 33s as 78s. The composition used to make 78s and
the varying grove width will shorted the life of the stylus
greatly.

Thorens offers a replacement stylus for use when playing 78s on its
TD-190 model.

I don't have many 78s and none of them is of any great value, but I
would like to be able to spin them now and then without investing in a
dedicated turntable . . .

dave weil wrote:

Get yourself a ProJect turntable from Sumiko.

The problem that you're going to have is playing 78s. You might want
to get a separate 78 capable turntable from eBay. I got my Project 1
turntable for about $120 delivered on eBay, so if you can find
something comparable (most of the time they go for around $200 when
you can find them, so I was pretty lucky), you'll still have plenty of
money to buy the second turntable for 78s.

My turntable sounds really good. I had a Thorens 321 with a Mayware
arm for years (with quite a few good budget cartridges) and it was
obvious that the ProJect was a little more detailed and satisfying
right out of the box.

The new entry level model is no longer called the 1. It's called The
Debut II. It runs $279 list, the main difference seeming to be the
fact that it comes with an Ortifon cartridge at that price, instead of
the Sumiko Oyster that used to come with it.

Thanks -- I'll check that out . . .

Bruce J. Richman wrote:

All of the VPI models play both 33s and 45s, so that will not be a problem.

I don't think the VPI Scout plays 45s.

Lloyd Fonvielle said:

GeoSynch wrote:

You may want to do your own research on this at www.stereophile.com
Sift through its archives for what Michael Fremer has written on the
subject.

Thanks for pointing to this site. Fremer's stuff is fascinating to read
but he's reviewing stuff that's way out of my range -- from a few
thousand dollars to 73 thousand dollars! I love my LPs, want to protect
them and have them sound as good as possible, but I have other interests
in life as well, including food, clothing and housing.
There doesn't seem to be much help out there for someone who wants
a superlative COMPROMISE -- somewhere far short of the outer limits of
what's technologically possible.
A good machine under a thousand dollars (or even 2 thousand
dollars!) capable of playing LPs, 45s and 78s, putting as little wear on
the discs as possible, but delivering the kind of a full rich sound that
CDs just can't provide.
Given those middle-of-the-road parameters, is there anything out
there better than the Thorens TD-190?
How much better would this machine perform than my old Sony PS-LX2?

I'd avoid the Thoren TD-190. It was a big flop, due mostly to some very
negative reviews. Most places are just trying get rid of them at closeout
prices. You should be looking at Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject.

Boon

Marc Phillips wrote:

I'd avoid the Thoren TD-190. It was a big flop, due mostly to some very
negative reviews. Most places are just trying get rid of them at closeout
prices. You should be looking at Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject.

Warning heeded.

Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:


Marc Phillips wrote:

I'd avoid the Thoren TD-190. It was a big flop, due mostly to some very
negative reviews. Most places are just trying get rid of them at closeout
prices. You should be looking at Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject.

Warning heeded.









The VPI Scout is, like all other VPI models, a 2-speed turntable This is
clearly indicated in the Stereophile review as follows:


http://www.stereophile.com/analogsou...76/index4.html


Another thing you might want to consider, since you're stateside, is that VPI
is based in New Jersey, and has an excellent reputation for customer service in
the event that any is needed. (They also have a fairly large dealer network).

FWIW, they work well with Grado cartridges, and often come equipped with them -
depending on the dealer involved.
Package deals are certainly available if you do a little research.



Bruce J. Richman

Marc Phillips wrote:

[snip]

I'd avoid the Thoren TD-190. It was a big flop, due mostly to some very
negative reviews. Most places are just trying get rid of them at closeout
prices. You should be looking at Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject.

Boon

As a brief testimonial, I got a Music Hall MMF-5 a couple of years ago
and it was clearly a big improvement over the cheapo Technics it
replaced. It was relatively inexpensive (about $500), came with a
reasonable cartridge, was not at all difficult to set up, and I've been
very happy with it. For what it's worth, the Music Halls are apparently
built in the same place as the Pro-Jects, and I understand they have
quite a bit in common. With the money you'd have left over, you could
easily get something that would be suitable for playing just the 78s,
which might not be a bad idea . . .

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:15:18 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:

dave weil said:

They make an optional "speed box" that might make 78 possible, but
it's not totally clear from the site whether it's compatable with all
models (it isn't compatable with the most expensive model because it's
already electronically speed control). I'd write them just to make
sure, if you decide to go that route.

There's more involved to play 78-ers than just speed.
Needle dimensions, tracking force, antiskating.........
Not to mention the possibility of vertical vs. horizontal cutting.
Therefor, it's important to use a STEREO cartridge, as this type can
handle lateral movements.

That's a good point (pardon the pun). There are dedicated 78
cartridges with the proper profile. A good compromise is getting a
detachable headstock tonearm and having a spare headstock with such a
cartridge installed for quick changeout. Unfortunately, this isn't
possible with the ProJect turntables.

Or, one can just get an older 78 compliant turntable as a second unit.
You can probably pick one up for a song on eBay nowadays.

Then there's the variety of equalizing characteristics that were used.
The latter can be done via software, I suppose.
One could also build a dedicated preamp with a selector switch for
most equalizing time constants.
I once did this for a client of mine.
9 different eq curves, 6 tubes and a separate power supply.
AFAIK, the guy is still using it, to his utmost pleasure.

Johnebravo said:

Marc Phillips wrote:

[snip]

I'd avoid the Thoren TD-190. It was a big flop, due mostly to some very
negative reviews. Most places are just trying get rid of them at closeout
prices. You should be looking at Rega, Music Hall, or Pro-Ject.

Boon

As a brief testimonial, I got a Music Hall MMF-5 a couple of years ago
and it was clearly a big improvement over the cheapo Technics it
replaced. It was relatively inexpensive (about $500), came with a
reasonable cartridge, was not at all difficult to set up, and I've been
very happy with it. For what it's worth, the Music Halls are apparently
built in the same place as the Pro-Jects, and I understand they have
quite a bit in common. With the money you'd have left over, you could
easily get something that would be suitable for playing just the 78s,
which might not be a bad idea . . .

I think I'd pick a Pro-Ject over a Music Hall right now. Music Hall did have a
problem a couple of years ago with QC problems due to the large demand.
However, I'd pick a Rega over both of those any day. And the original poster
could always get a Planar 78 for his 78 collection, and then buy a Planar 2 for
the rest. If he looks for used models, he might be able to get both for the
price of a new P3.

Boon

dave weil said:

That's a good point (pardon the pun). There are dedicated 78
cartridges with the proper profile. A good compromise is getting a
detachable headstock tonearm and having a spare headstock with such a
cartridge installed for quick changeout. Unfortunately, this isn't
possible with the ProJect turntables.

You'll probably need a heavier arm with a dedicated 78 cartridge.
At higher speeds, the forces on the needle, cantilever and housing are
stronger.
A heavier arm will prevent groove jumping and provide better tracking.

Or, one can just get an older 78 compliant turntable as a second unit.
You can probably pick one up for a song on eBay nowadays.

That seems to be a good idea.
Preferably, if ever such a beast can be found in the USA, get an old
Thorens TD124 with the stock arm. Heavy construction, heavy arm.
Perfect for playing 78-ers.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:23:57 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:

dave weil said:

That's a good point (pardon the pun). There are dedicated 78
cartridges with the proper profile. A good compromise is getting a
detachable headstock tonearm and having a spare headstock with such a
cartridge installed for quick changeout. Unfortunately, this isn't
possible with the ProJect turntables.

You'll probably need a heavier arm with a dedicated 78 cartridge.
At higher speeds, the forces on the needle, cantilever and housing are
stronger.
A heavier arm will prevent groove jumping and provide better tracking.

Or, one can just get an older 78 compliant turntable as a second unit.
You can probably pick one up for a song on eBay nowadays.

That seems to be a good idea.
Preferably, if ever such a beast can be found in the USA, get an old
Thorens TD124 with the stock arm. Heavy construction, heavy arm.
Perfect for playing 78-ers.

Or something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It will surely go for less than $150 if not $100. Should be fine for
playing 78s.

Or, more humorously, this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It's got a tube amp *and* the AM radio works!

dave weil said:

Or something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It will surely go for less than $150 if not $100. Should be fine for
playing 78s.

It might surprise you, but maybe even this arm may be too lightweight.
It all depends on what kind of 78-ers one wishes to play.
The guy I did the preamp for, played even acoustically recorded
vertical (hill-and-dale) cut records. They required about 20 grams
tracking force.
The dedicated shure cart isn't gonna do that :-)
One needs a huge compliance cartridge, as well as heavily built.
It is said the original EMT hasn't got any problems with that!

Or, more humorously, this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It's got a tube amp *and* the AM radio works!

Nice thing to put in the hallway. Always interesting conversations
with your guests or even the mailman about it :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

johnebravo836 wrote:

As a brief testimonial, I got a Music Hall MMF-5 a couple of years ago
and it was clearly a big improvement over the cheapo Technics it
replaced. It was relatively inexpensive (about $500), came with a
reasonable cartridge, was not at all difficult to set up, and I've been
very happy with it. For what it's worth, the Music Halls are apparently
built in the same place as the Pro-Jects, and I understand they have
quite a bit in common. With the money you'd have left over, you could
easily get something that would be suitable for playing just the 78s,
which might not be a bad idea . . .

Thanks -- I appreciate all the info & advice . . .

Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:


johnebravo836 wrote:

As a brief testimonial, I got a Music Hall MMF-5 a couple of years ago
and it was clearly a big improvement over the cheapo Technics it
replaced. It was relatively inexpensive (about $500), came with a
reasonable cartridge, was not at all difficult to set up, and I've been
very happy with it. For what it's worth, the Music Halls are apparently
built in the same place as the Pro-Jects, and I understand they have
quite a bit in common. With the money you'd have left over, you could
easily get something that would be suitable for playing just the 78s,
which might not be a bad idea . . .

Thanks -- I appreciate all the info & advice . . .









While I personally prefer (and use) VPI turntables, there's no question that
you won't go wrong with a Rega, Project or Music Hall. That said, I'd also
suggest that for the few 78's you probably have, you wait until you can find a
fairly cheap turntable on eBay or Audiogon. It's far better to put most of
your investment into a turntable that can play the majority of your music plus
LP's you might buy in the future.



Bruce J. Richman

Bruce J. Richman wrote:

While I personally prefer (and use) VPI turntables, there's no question that
you won't go wrong with a Rega, Project or Music Hall. That said, I'd also
suggest that for the few 78's you probably have, you wait until you can find a
fairly cheap turntable on eBay or Audiogon. It's far better to put most of
your investment into a turntable that can play the majority of your music plus
LP's you might buy in the future.

I'm coming to that conclusion. The vast majority of my disc collection
is LPs -- they're what I'll be spinning on a day to day basis. It would
be nice if I could find a terrific mid-range turntable which happened to
play 78s as well, but the general consensus seems to be that the
mid-range machines dedicated to 45s & LPs are better.

The inconvenience of changing a needle and/or cartridge for 78rpm play
also argues for a separate unit for 78s.