Following a lightning storm, my Yamaha RXV995 receiver doesn't stay
powered on. When powered on, it turns off after a second or so.
Apparently its overload protection mechanism is being triggered. What
can I look for or try before taking it to the service center?

The same storm also affected the sound on my Proscan 36" television.
Although the picture is fine, the sound is now scratchy and sounds
like a cheap radio's speakers. I suppose I can always connect
external speakers, assuming the noise is not being introduced before
this point.

As an aside, this is the second time in the last month that we have
had damage following a storm. The list of damaged items also
includes: an oven, burners on gas range, A/C unit, 3 PC's and various
low voltage power supplies. The PC's and power supplies were all
connected via surge suppressors. I realize that such surge
suppressors are basically useless with nearby lightning strikes. I am
strongly thinking about getting some sort of whole house surge
suppression system which can shunt the power to ground at the main
power connection. Anyone with experience with such systems?

--Rob

First of all, the level of service work that your sound system and TV
requires, is not something you will be able to do yourself, unless you
were properly trained, have the necessary test equipment, and service
manuals. Also, when working on these devices, there are safety issues
to be respected.

By your description your receiver probably has failed components in the
output stage, and or the power supply. The TV set may have failed
components in either or both the audio output stage, and or audio
pre-amp stages. This has to be properly determined, and then
troubleshooted to zero in on the specific components.

From what you describe, I would think that there is an electrical
grounding problem in your house, and it should be looked after. A
qualified electrical contractor should come out to your place and
investigate this. Also, if your equipment is connected to outside
antenna equipment, and or cable services, the grounding and safety
isolation should be looked at by someone who is qualified to do so.

There are proper ways to deal with incoming power, and services from the
outside to your home. Proper procedures must be implemented for proper
grounding and isolation where applicable.

Did you enquire to your neighbours to see if they also have the same
problems? If you are having major appliances damaged, especially heavy
ones such as stoves, toasters, refrigerators, and ect, this is a very
serious power safety problem and should be looked after. Heavy
appliances are more difficult to damage by having power and lightning
surges, than sensitive electronic equipment.



--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
==============================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
Instruments http://www.zoom-one.com/glgtech.htm
==============================================
"Foo Man Choo SE" wrote in message
om...
Following a lightning storm, my Yamaha RXV995 receiver doesn't stay
powered on. When powered on, it turns off after a second or so.
Apparently its overload protection mechanism is being triggered. What
can I look for or try before taking it to the service center?

The same storm also affected the sound on my Proscan 36" television.
Although the picture is fine, the sound is now scratchy and sounds
like a cheap radio's speakers. I suppose I can always connect
external speakers, assuming the noise is not being introduced before
this point.

As an aside, this is the second time in the last month that we have
had damage following a storm. The list of damaged items also
includes: an oven, burners on gas range, A/C unit, 3 PC's and various
low voltage power supplies. The PC's and power supplies were all
connected via surge suppressors. I realize that such surge
suppressors are basically useless with nearby lightning strikes. I am
strongly thinking about getting some sort of whole house surge
suppression system which can shunt the power to ground at the main
power connection. Anyone with experience with such systems?

--Rob

"Jerry G." wrote in message ...
First of all, the level of service work that your sound system and TV
requires, is not something you will be able to do yourself, unless you
were properly trained, have the necessary test equipment, and service
manuals. Also, when working on these devices, there are safety issues
to be respected.

Agreed (about getting professional help). I was just checking in case
there was something "obvious" to look for. Man, I am not looking
forward to getting the bills. These guys charge about $60 just for
the diagnosis and it's not refundable if you don't want the repair
done. I'd use my home owner's insurance, but being a "smart
consumer", have a deductible of $2500! Sometimes it doesn't pay to be
smart...

By your description your receiver probably has failed components in the
output stage, and or the power supply. The TV set may have failed
components in either or both the audio output stage, and or audio
pre-amp stages. This has to be properly determined, and then
troubleshooted to zero in on the specific components.

From what you describe, I would think that there is an electrical
grounding problem in your house, and it should be looked after. A
qualified electrical contractor should come out to your place and
investigate this. Also, if your equipment is connected to outside
antenna equipment, and or cable services, the grounding and safety
isolation should be looked at by someone who is qualified to do so.

There are proper ways to deal with incoming power, and services from the
outside to your home. Proper procedures must be implemented for proper
grounding and isolation where applicable.

Good point - I'll have to get more than one electrician's opinion on
this. I have heard that many so called "qualified" electricians do
not implement proper grounding to deal with nearby lighting. We moved
into our home about seven months ago and it passed electrical
inspection without a hitch. Also, the cable and telephone
installation guys, who presumably need to hook up their lines to the
common ground, did not mention the potential for problems. I did
notice that all were connected to the main grounding rod. Maybe it's
an issue with the size or type of grounding rod used.

Anyone with any recommendations on whole house protection systems?
I've heard that Home Depot and Lowe's carry such systems (I believe
Siemens makes one) but are they good enough. Do I look at the joules
rating or what?


Did you enquire to your neighbours to see if they also have the same
problems? If you are having major appliances damaged, especially heavy
ones such as stoves, toasters, refrigerators, and ect, this is a very
serious power safety problem and should be looked after. Heavy
appliances are more difficult to damage by having power and lightning
surges, than sensitive electronic equipment.

Yes, our next door neighbors also lost their A/C and at least two
others lost their phone connections. Don't know about other damage.

--Rob

In , on 07/17/03
at 06:26 PM, (Foo Man Choo SE) said:

[ ... ]

There are proper ways to deal with incoming power, and services from the
outside to your home. Proper procedures must be implemented for proper
grounding and isolation where applicable.


Good point - I'll have to get more than one electrician's opinion on
this. I have heard that many so called "qualified" electricians do
not implement proper grounding to deal with nearby lighting. We moved
into our home about seven months ago and it passed electrical
inspection without a hitch. Also, the cable and telephone
installation guys, who presumably need to hook up their lines to the
common ground, did not mention the potential for problems. I did
notice that all were connected to the main grounding rod. Maybe it's
an issue with the size or type of grounding rod used.

If you need a really good ground, they have to be maintained and
checked from time to time. If the soil near the ground rod dries out,
the "ground" won't be very effective.

The cable and phone installers in your area are either better than
average or know something about your local situation. In my urban area
none of the phone drops are grounded or protected against lightning and
most of the cable TV guys are too busy (or stupid) to ground anything.

Check out your area. Some areas have a history of regular, severe
lightning strikes. If this is true for your area, you need *GOOD*
professional advice.

Anyone with any recommendations on whole house protection systems?
I've heard that Home Depot and Lowe's carry such systems (I believe
Siemens makes one) but are they good enough. Do I look at the joules
rating or what?


Did you enquire to your neighbours to see if they also have the same
problems? If you are having major appliances damaged, especially heavy
ones such as stoves, toasters, refrigerators, and ect, this is a very
serious power safety problem and should be looked after. Heavy
appliances are more difficult to damage by having power and lightning
surges, than sensitive electronic equipment.

Yes, our next door neighbors also lost their A/C and at least two
others lost their phone connections. Don't know about other damage.

Expand your inquiry. It is possible that there is a power distribution
problem on or near your block. You can register your concern with the
local utility, but they usually don't pay too much attention to a
single complaint. In one case there was a TV interference problem that
covered several blocks. Clearly it was associated with the power line,
but it took months to convince the utility company to send out its
diagnostic truck. Finally, after a phone-in campaign was organized, the
utility came out, found, and fixed the problem.

If your ground is not so good, surge suppressors don't work well. Also,
cheap surge suppressors are a complete waste of time because they offer
little protection.

The MOV based surge suppressors, while very effective, generally fail
"open" (the device stops "eating" the surges and begins passing them
through). Unfortunately, unless they are obviously burned, there is no
practical way to test MOV's in the field. Cheap designs force the MOV
to deal with the full brunt of the surge. MOV's can deal with one "big
one" and thousands of smaller surges. It is always possible that the
day after you install the cheap suppressor, that big will come along,
the MOV will sacrifice itself to protect your equipment, and die. Good
designs use other methods to remove the gross surge energy, leaving the
MOV to safely deal the the remainder.

If you have frequent power outages consider installing a "lockout"
device. In many cases a series of surges is generated when the power is
turned on again that are larger and more dangerous than the one
generated by the original distant event. The lockout device will
disconnect your delicate equipment from the power line if power is
interrupted. You can wait and reset the lockout device manually after
the situation has stabilized.

If you have long runs of telephone, computer network, or speaker wire
inside your house and you live in a severe lightning area, you'll need
to re-think things because a nearby strike that can be completely
stopped at your service entrance, can still induce a damaging transient
directly into a long run of wire. (sorry, I can't be precise about how
long is "long")

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

(Barry Mann) wrote in message . com...
In , on 07/17/03
at 06:26 PM, (Foo Man Choo SE) said:

[ ... ]

Expand your inquiry. It is possible that there is a power distribution
problem on or near your block. You can register your concern with the
local utility, but they usually don't pay too much attention to a
single complaint. In one case there was a TV interference problem that
covered several blocks. Clearly it was associated with the power line,
but it took months to convince the utility company to send out its
diagnostic truck. Finally, after a phone-in campaign was organized, the
utility came out, found, and fixed the problem.
Good idea, I'll check with the our power company -- it can't hurt.

If your ground is not so good, surge suppressors don't work well. Also,
cheap surge suppressors are a complete waste of time because they offer
little protection.


The MOV based surge suppressors, while very effective, generally fail
"open" (the device stops "eating" the surges and begins passing them
through). Unfortunately, unless they are obviously burned, there is no
practical way to test MOV's in the field. Cheap designs force the MOV
to deal with the full brunt of the surge. MOV's can deal with one "big
one" and thousands of smaller surges. It is always possible that the
day after you install the cheap suppressor, that big will come along,
the MOV will sacrifice itself to protect your equipment, and die. Good
designs use other methods to remove the gross surge energy, leaving the
MOV to safely deal the the remainder.

If you have frequent power outages consider installing a "lockout"
device. In many cases a series of surges is generated when the power is
turned on again that are larger and more dangerous than the one
generated by the original distant event. The lockout device will
disconnect your delicate equipment from the power line if power is
interrupted. You can wait and reset the lockout device manually after
the situation has stabilized.
This sounds interesting. Can you suggest a specific model or
manufacturer? Is it something that requires professional
installation?

If you have long runs of telephone, computer network, or speaker wire
inside your house and you live in a severe lightning area, you'll need
to re-think things because a nearby strike that can be completely
stopped at your service entrance, can still induce a damaging transient
directly into a long run of wire. (sorry, I can't be precise about how
long is "long")
Hmm, I have lots of long runs of speaker wiring, CAT5, security and
RG6 coax. How does the damaging transient get into the wiring in this
case? What can be done for protect in this case?

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

Electricians (and that wiring inspection) are for human
safety. You have a transistor safety problem. Code does not
address transistor safety. For transistor safety, that
earthing system must exceed what is required by code - which
is why so many electricians don't understand nor need to
understand important concepts such as single point earth
ground.

For example, all incoming utilities must enter at same
location - the service entrance - for transistor safety. Code
that is written for human safety makes no such demand.

All incoming utility wires must make a less than 10 foot
connection to central earth ground. Of three AC mains wires
entering, only one typically has that connection. Other two
must make that less than 10 foot connection using a 'whole
house' protector - again which code does not require.

Home Depot sells effective 'whole house' protectors. But
the GE model I saw in Lowes was undersized and overpriced.

Cable TV and satellite dish wire must also connect less
than 10 foot to that same central earth ground used by AC
electric and phone. No surge protector is required for CATV
since the earth ground connection is made by a direct
hardwire. Surge protectors are only for earth ground
connections when utility wire cannot be directly hardwired to
earth (ie AC electric and phone wires).

More about earthing was discussed in two discussions in the
newsgroup misc.rural. Even earthing of utility's transformer
is part of a home's surge protection 'system':
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Also a short list of alternative 'whole house' protectors
for AC electric - the source of most destructive surges:
http://members.home.net/kapland/surge.htm
http://www.dale-electric.com/ditek.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod01.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispInfo.cfm?ID=280
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispinfo.cfm?id=579
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispfamily.cfm?id=3
http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/surg...ucts/chsp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~StorminPr.../index-31.html
http://www.nooutage.com/LightningSurgeProt.htm
from www.squared.com is
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1B7539A1
http://www.leaintl.com/pdf/HSPCCutsheet.pdf
http://www.mimcv.com/residential.html
http://www.leaintl.com/pdf/MsaCutsheet.pdf

Surge protectors are only simple science (even though many
don't even know what a surge protector does). Life expectancy
is measured in joules. The art of surge protection is
earthing - underlying variations in geology, conductivity of
soil, what and where man has buried, surrounding trees, etc.
Introduction to the 'art' was that misc.rural discussion. An
industry benchmark discusses effective protection
extensively. Not their products. Their application notes are
about earthing; well beyond what is required by code and
foreign to too many who recommend retail surge protectors:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_pen_home.asp


Foo Man Choo SE wrote:
...
Good point - I'll have to get more than one electrician's opinion on
this. I have heard that many so called "qualified" electricians do
not implement proper grounding to deal with nearby lighting. We moved
into our home about seven months ago and it passed electrical
inspection without a hitch. Also, the cable and telephone
installation guys, who presumably need to hook up their lines to the
common ground, did not mention the potential for problems. I did
notice that all were connected to the main grounding rod. Maybe it's
an issue with the size or type of grounding rod used.

Anyone with any recommendations on whole house protection systems?
I've heard that Home Depot and Lowe's carry such systems (I believe
Siemens makes one) but are they good enough. Do I look at the joules
rating or what?

w_tom wrote in message ...
Electricians (and that wiring inspection) are for human
safety. You have a transistor safety problem. Code does not
address transistor safety. For transistor safety, that
earthing system must exceed what is required by code - which
is why so many electricians don't understand nor need to
understand important concepts such as single point earth
ground.

For example, all incoming utilities must enter at same
location - the service entrance - for transistor safety. Code
that is written for human safety makes no such demand.
All incoming utilites do enter at one location on my house.

All incoming utility wires must make a less than 10 foot
connection to central earth ground. Of three AC mains wires
entering, only one typically has that connection. Other two
must make that less than 10 foot connection using a 'whole
house' protector - again which code does not require.

Home Depot sells effective 'whole house' protectors. But
the GE model I saw in Lowes was undersized and overpriced.
I went to the local Home Depot this weekend but they didn't carry any
(or the sales Dude didn't know any better). Can you suggest any
current brands/models that they should carry so I can have them search
for the model numbers? Their web site doesn't seem to list any
either.

Cable TV and satellite dish wire must also connect less
than 10 foot to that same central earth ground used by AC
electric and phone. No surge protector is required for CATV
since the earth ground connection is made by a direct
hardwire. Surge protectors are only for earth ground
connections when utility wire cannot be directly hardwired to
earth (ie AC electric and phone wires).
Yes, our CATV is also grounded to the same earth ground.

More about earthing was discussed in two discussions in the
newsgroup misc.rural. Even earthing of utility's transformer
is part of a home's surge protection 'system':
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Also a short list of alternative 'whole house' protectors
for AC electric - the source of most destructive surges:
http://members.home.net/kapland/surge.htm
http://www.dale-electric.com/ditek.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod01.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispInfo.cfm?ID=280
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispinfo.cfm?id=579
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispfamily.cfm?id=3
http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/surg...ucts/chsp.html
http://members.tripod.com/~StorminPr.../index-31.html
http://www.nooutage.com/LightningSurgeProt.htm
from www.squared.com is
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1B7539A1
http://www.leaintl.com/pdf/HSPCCutsheet.pdf
http://www.mimcv.com/residential.html
http://www.leaintl.com/pdf/MsaCutsheet.pdf
...
Thanks for the detailed response and the links. I will definately
check them out.

Assuming I have my earth grounding checked out and get a whole house
protection system installed, can I get rid of the local MOV-based
surge suppressors which, presumably, didn't do me any good to begin
with. (I have some 3000 joule rated ones bought at Lowe's for about
$40.) Or, is there some benefit to keeping these connected? What
about the theory that they might help in increasing the life of
circuit board components by eliminating the hundreds of small surges
occurring throughout the day which may be taking their toll on
electronic components?

Also, most of these surge suppressors offer some sort of lifetime
equipment damage warranty. Wonder if anyone has actually won a claim
from them? I've heard that this is mostly a scam since it would be
next to impossible to verify. For example, how can you really prove
that the damaged equipment was really plugged into the suppressor at
the time of damage? If it was easy, it would also be easy to fake it
and blame the surge suppressor to get the equipment replaced free of
cost. One of the requirements on the one from Lowe's is that the
surge suppressor also be damaged along with the equipment it is
"protecting". Now, it's interesting that two of my power adaptors
(for laptops) were zapped out of service but the Radio Shack surge
suppressors were still working (at least the light was still on).
Could be that the MOV's were made ineffective but power was still
being let through.

--Rob

In , on 07/21/03
at 11:36 AM, (Foo Man Choo SE) said:

[ ... ]

Assuming I have my earth grounding checked out and get a whole house
protection system installed, can I get rid of the local MOV-based
surge suppressors which, presumably, didn't do me any good to begin
with. (I have some 3000 joule rated ones bought at Lowe's for about
$40.)

$40.00 is the point where surge suppressors become effective.

Or, is there some benefit to keeping these connected? What
about the theory that they might help in increasing the life of
circuit board components by eliminating the hundreds of small surges
occurring throughout the day which may be taking their toll on
electronic components?

It's a matter of degree. The equipment's own power supply should be
able to deal with "small" transients, but at some point the unit will
be overwhelmed. This is also true for the MOV. An enormous number of
small transients can be safely handled, at least a few large
transients, but only one really big one. I realize this is not very
precise, but the details depend on the suppressor's design and your
brand of transient.

Also, most of these surge suppressors offer some sort of lifetime
equipment damage warranty. Wonder if anyone has actually won a claim
from them? I've heard that this is mostly a scam since it would be
next to impossible to verify. For example, how can you really prove
that the damaged equipment was really plugged into the suppressor at
the time of damage? If it was easy, it would also be easy to fake it
and blame the surge suppressor to get the equipment replaced free of
cost. One of the requirements on the one from Lowe's is that the
surge suppressor also be damaged along with the equipment it is
"protecting".

I also wonder about these claims, but I have no first or second hand
experience with these issues.

Now, it's interesting that two of my power adaptors
(for laptops) were zapped out of service but the Radio Shack surge
suppressors were still working (at least the light was still on).
Could be that the MOV's were made ineffective but power was still
being let through.

Remember that the MOV ususlly fails "open" (meaning that, while it
looks OK, it is not a functioning protective device). It is not
practical to test MOV's in the field. (Don't take this analogy too far,
but it's somewhat like testing a match.) That light in the Radio Shack
units simply tells you that power is available, not that there is any
protection.

I've seen some units that have a fuse for the MOV. While this might
offer a small amount of protection for the MOV, the point is that once
the MOV's fuse blows, your equipment is not protected. In effect the
"suppressor" us using your equipment to protect it's MOV.

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

You won't be able to fix the Yamaha yourself - even many servicers have a
learning curve on these. Time to get it to an authorized servicer.

Mark Z.



"Foo Man Choo SE" wrote in message
om...
Following a lightning storm, my Yamaha RXV995 receiver doesn't stay
powered on. When powered on, it turns off after a second or so.
Apparently its overload protection mechanism is being triggered. What
can I look for or try before taking it to the service center?

The same storm also affected the sound on my Proscan 36" television.
Although the picture is fine, the sound is now scratchy and sounds
like a cheap radio's speakers. I suppose I can always connect
external speakers, assuming the noise is not being introduced before
this point.

As an aside, this is the second time in the last month that we have
had damage following a storm. The list of damaged items also
includes: an oven, burners on gas range, A/C unit, 3 PC's and various
low voltage power supplies. The PC's and power supplies were all
connected via surge suppressors. I realize that such surge
suppressors are basically useless with nearby lightning strikes. I am
strongly thinking about getting some sort of whole house surge
suppression system which can shunt the power to ground at the main
power connection. Anyone with experience with such systems?

--Rob

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message hlink.net...
You won't be able to fix the Yamaha yourself - even many servicers have a
learning curve on these. Time to get it to an authorized servicer.

Mark Z.

Took the receiver in to an authorized Yamaha service center. They
charge $60 for diagnosis (nonrefundable, of course) and, if the repair
cost is less than $240, they won't call. Oh boy, can't wait to find
out what they come up with...