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  #1   Report Post  
Sterckx Zoe
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

More speakers are for a better panning effect. Because surround speakers
are usually smaller and less powerfull than the mains, you'll hear the
transitions better, they have poor stereo imaging or whatever,
and this is why they add a rear center speaker f.e.,
that way the distance between the 2 surround channels becomes smaller
and you get a better panning effect from one side to the other, and
it seems you're getting a stronger stereo effect behind you.



By 4.1 I meant first generation surround with a subwoofer added in. I

guess
I am a purist, but not for nostalgia or anything emotional... I just don't
get it from an engineering perspective. If you put half of the sound you
want centered behind a person into each of the two rear speakers, this
should be no different to the ear than a rear center channel with all of

the
sound.

Is it about increasing the size of the sweet spot... I guess getting the
full effect from only four speakers does require the listener to be pretty
well centered. (Maybe I am just being wishful because I can't afford any
more speakers!)

Cheers!




  #2   Report Post  
Barry Mann
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

In , on 07/07/03
at 10:36 PM, "Jeff Hawkins" said:

Hi,


Is 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, or 8.2 really any better than 4.1 surround?
(Assuming your speakers and amp are good, and the encoding was done
well?)


It seems to me that the only reason adding more speakers sounds better
on most systems is because you get more wattage out of the extra
channels. But, if you had 100 high current watts per main and surround
channel plus about 250 for the subwoofer and good speakers all the way
around, it might be just as good.


Has anyone out there with good ears heard the difference?


Thanks!


I can imagine a 12.2 system. (four front and rear, two sides, two
centers, and two subs) Perhaps a 12.2.1 system would also be fun. (adds
a "shaker" mounted in your chair)

At that point there will probably be a consumer backlash and we will
start incresasing the signal processing to create "virtual" speakers
while decreasing the number of "real" speakers.

Surround sound or not, "Wattage" in itself does not offer much because
there are cheap and expensive Watts. Expensive Watts usually sound
better than cheap Watts.

While it is uaually a bit more expensive, you'll find that matching the
speakers all around will yield better results than doubling the power.
Matched speakers will become more important in the future.

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

  #3   Report Post  
Mark A
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

"Barry Mann" wrote in message
om...
In , on 07/07/03
at 10:36 PM, "Jeff Hawkins" said:

Hi,


Is 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, or 8.2 really any better than 4.1 surround?
(Assuming your speakers and amp are good, and the encoding was done
well?)


It seems to me that the only reason adding more speakers sounds better
on most systems is because you get more wattage out of the extra
channels. But, if you had 100 high current watts per main and surround
channel plus about 250 for the subwoofer and good speakers all the way
around, it might be just as good.


Has anyone out there with good ears heard the difference?


Thanks!


I can imagine a 12.2 system. (four front and rear, two sides, two
centers, and two subs) Perhaps a 12.2.1 system would also be fun. (adds
a "shaker" mounted in your chair)

At that point there will probably be a consumer backlash and we will
start incresasing the signal processing to create "virtual" speakers
while decreasing the number of "real" speakers.

Surround sound or not, "Wattage" in itself does not offer much because
there are cheap and expensive Watts. Expensive Watts usually sound
better than cheap Watts.

While it is uaually a bit more expensive, you'll find that matching the
speakers all around will yield better results than doubling the power.
Matched speakers will become more important in the future.


Actually, you don't really need more than 4 speakers right now to get decent
surround. If you don't have a center channel, most receivers will feed the
signal into the front L and R. This works fine if the fronts are not spaced
too far apart. Subwoofer can also be routed to the fronts if they have
decent bass drivers.


  #4   Report Post  
Geoff Wood
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?


"GregS" wrote in message

I think a top speaker and a floor shaker should be mandatory.
Might just be able to double to 10.2 to get top and bottoms and
floor shaker.



An extra .1 in every chair really gives you a boot in the arse .


geoff


  #5   Report Post  
kryten_droid
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

An extra .1 in every chair really gives you a boot in the arse.


Crikey!

That must make your eyes water.






  #6   Report Post  
GMAN
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

In article , "Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

"GregS" wrote in message

I think a top speaker and a floor shaker should be mandatory.
Might just be able to double to 10.2 to get top and bottoms and
floor shaker.



An extra .1 in every chair really gives you a boot in the arse .


geoff


I'd love to accuire one of those old 1970's era "Sensurround" speakers from a
theater
  #7   Report Post  
Neill Massello
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

Jeff Hawkins wrote:

Is 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, or 8.2 really any better than 4.1 surround? (Assuming your
speakers and amp are good, and the encoding was done well?)


Very few theaters ever use anything beyond 6.1. For home theater, 6.1 is
definitely the point beyond which additional channels will essentially
be marketing hype.
  #8   Report Post  
Mark A
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure what your words are implying (particularly the
term "3-d soundfield"), but this I know for a fact: One can
create a 3-dimensional audio experience matching to a
significant degree that of the original acoustic event (for
a live sound) for a single listener using only two speakers.
I can prove this from a purely mathematical point of view given
a couple of constraints which can be met in a real system. Such
a system is not just a mathematical oddity but can be practically
implemented.


Yes. A lot of people have never heard stereo. Just multi-channel
pan-potted mono.


Maybe that's true in the UK (I don't know) but very few people in the US
fall into that category.


  #9   Report Post  
Mark A
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

Home Cinema systems are almost uniformly crap.

I don't think that is accurate. For a reasonable amount of money, a person
can almost duplicate the movie theatre sound experience in their homes.
Maybe you think that sound in movie theatres are crap, but that is a
different issue.


  #11   Report Post  
GamezCore
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

4.1/5.1 that is where it's at. Most movies don't even properly utilize 5.1
encoding yet to make it THAT much of a deal over a solid 2.1 system.
Generally it seems as if it is done as an afterthought rather than tightly
tied into a scene or entire movie.

I can probably count on one hand the number of hollywood titles that have
really made excellent usage of 5.1.

"GregS" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark A"

wrote:
"Barry Mann" wrote in message
. com...
In , on 07/07/03
at 10:36 PM, "Jeff Hawkins" said:

Hi,

Is 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, or 8.2 really any better than 4.1 surround?
(Assuming your speakers and amp are good, and the encoding was done
well?)



Actually, you don't really need more than 4 speakers right now to get

decent
surround. If you don't have a center channel, most receivers will feed

the
signal into the front L and R. This works fine if the fronts are not

spaced
too far apart. Subwoofer can also be routed to the fronts if they have
decent bass drivers.


I think a top speaker and a floor shaker should be mandatory.
Might just be able to double to 10.2 to get top and bottoms and
floor shaker.

greg



  #12   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

You are forgetting that the listening chamber has SIX sides. 7.1 on covers 4
sides. What about the floor an the ceiling?

Surely you need at least pairs of front and rear speakers for the floor as
well and the same again for the ceiling.

So you really need at least an 15.1 system (7+4+4 = 15). HeHeHe!

Such a system could even accurately reproduce the sound of a listener's
FART?

--
choro-nik
*******
Original quotable quotes from choro-nik
"The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic."
"Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of yesteryears'
policies."
"Trust one scoundrel to quote from another"
**********


"Lymp Baygul" wrote in message
...
David Chesky makes a good case for 6.1 for audio reproduction, with front
and rear pairs at ear level, and a side pair for vertical information,
creating a true 3-D soundfield. The center channel is worthless for

audio,
and should only be used for home theater.
if you wanted to cover all AV bases, 7.1 would give you 6.1 plus a center
fill for watching movies.

As far as 4.1, 5.1 will offer no improvement for music listening, may
actually detract a bit, since a good setup won't need any "fill", and

would
only be useful for movies where it enhances dialogue.


"Jeff Hawkins" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Is 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, or 8.2 really any better than 4.1 surround? (Assuming

your
speakers and amp are good, and the encoding was done well?)

It seems to me that the only reason adding more speakers sounds better

on
most systems is because you get more wattage out of the extra channels.

But,
if you had 100 high current watts per main and surround channel plus

about
250 for the subwoofer and good speakers all the way around, it might be

just
as good.

Has anyone out there with good ears heard the difference?

Thanks!









  #13   Report Post  
Trevor
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?


"choro-nik" wrote in message
...
You are forgetting that the listening chamber has SIX sides. 7.1 on covers

4
sides. What about the floor an the ceiling?

Surely you need at least pairs of front and rear speakers for the floor as
well and the same again for the ceiling.

So you really need at least an 15.1 system (7+4+4 = 15). HeHeHe!

Such a system could even accurately reproduce the sound of a listener's
FART?


Accuracy has nothing to do with the number of speakers, I still prefer HIGH
quality MONO to the normal crap 5.1 or 7.1.
Anyhow if the area has six sides, six full range speakers should be
adequate, or six plus sub woofer if they are not. The listening sweet spot
will only be in the centre of the room, but I can't see how you could get
away from that no matter how many speakers you use.

Trevor.



  #14   Report Post  
detlaf
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

Well I only have two ears so 3.1 would seem to be the most efficient.
If we are to have more channels I would like a mono speech one with no
background sounds as the current batch of blockbuster movies gives
great background but makes the mumbled speech almost impossible to
decipher.
  #15   Report Post  
Kalman Rubinson
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

On 14 Jul 2003 18:15:06 -0700, (detlaf) wrote:

Well I only have two ears so 3.1 would seem to be the most efficient.


I think you do not understand how hearing works. You do hear what
is behind you in the concert hall.

Kal


  #18   Report Post  
Geoff Wood
 
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Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?


"choro-nik" wrote in message
...
You are forgetting that the listening chamber has SIX sides. 7.1 on covers

4
sides. What about the floor an the ceiling?

Surely you need at least pairs of front and rear speakers for the floor as
well and the same again for the ceiling.

So you really need at least an 15.1 system (7+4+4 = 15). HeHeHe!

Such a system could even accurately reproduce the sound of a listener's
FART?



What about a 360 enveloping radiating cocoon ?


geoff


  #19   Report Post  
choro-nik
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

Now, why didn't I think of that?! A speaker in which you can live!

Would it contain a "studio couch" and a hopeful "starlet"?
**********

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

"choro-nik" wrote in message
...
You are forgetting that the listening chamber has SIX sides. 7.1 on

covers
4
sides. What about the floor an the ceiling?

Surely you need at least pairs of front and rear speakers for the floor

as
well and the same again for the ceiling.

So you really need at least an 15.1 system (7+4+4 = 15). HeHeHe!

Such a system could even accurately reproduce the sound of a listener's
FART?



What about a 360 enveloping radiating cocoon ?


geoff




  #20   Report Post  
Bobby Owsinski
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?

In article ,
"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote:

"choro-nik" wrote in message
...
You are forgetting that the listening chamber has SIX sides. 7.1 on covers

4
sides. What about the floor an the ceiling?

Surely you need at least pairs of front and rear speakers for the floor as
well and the same again for the ceiling.

So you really need at least an 15.1 system (7+4+4 = 15). HeHeHe!



You have a couple of concepts wrong. 7.1 doesn't have additional
speakers on the side (and the SDDS theater system is the only one that
utlizes 7.1). It has 5 speakers across the front (L, C, R plus Center L
and Center R) for more level in large theaters.

There are many configurations that utilize height speakers with some
amazing results. Tom Holman's (the godfather of THX and 5.1) 10.2
system has stereo height channels.


  #21   Report Post  
Trevor
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2... Where should it stop?


"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

How about just '8'. Plus a '.1' if you want to annoy the neighbours.


Yep, one in each corner of a cube is easier to live with than one in the
middle of each side :-)
All the systems seem designed to address problems (real or imagined) of
size, location, room acoustics etc, and maintain compatibility with stereo.

Trevor.



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