(First, if there's a more appropriate ng for this question, please let
me know...but you folks seem quite knowledgeable around here so here
goes...)

Price: From mics to recorder, I'm looking at a total cost of under
around $600, but would love to keep it below $450.

Use: I'd use my rig for clubs/concert hall shows, primarily rock music
of a medium/heavy variety (Flaming Lips-ish to Tool-ish, on a broad
scale).

Expectations: My favorite aud recordings by tapers have come from rigs
running well into the mid four figures. I do not expect anything of
the sort, but would at least demand a result that I can listen to
without cringing and spending hours EQing before being able to enjoy.

What I'm considering: I'll be transferring everything I record to my
PC for distribution. That said, the first things to catch my eye have
been the iRiver/Archos/Neuros/Nomad type players which seem to work as
portable hard drives. I'm a bit disappointed in the iRiver's 800 mb
file limit, but even moreso, I'm concerned about the ability of these
players to handle a live concert.

On that note...

The one thing preventing me from getting into recording thus far has
been the inability to enjoy the show as I like to (that is, dancing
around). To this effect, I've been looking into players that can
record wavs with a mic input (w/adjustable levels) that use flash
media cards. To handle a full show (plus opener) I'd need something in
the 3-4 gb range. Of course, my thinking behind this recording method
is solid state, allowing me (in theory) to bounce about to my heart's
content without worry about a skipping MD recorder, or a HD recorder
that gets irrecoverably damaged.

Mics: I'm looking at the stereo cardioid AT853s, but would welcome any
alternatives in a similar price range.

Do I need a preamp if I use this setup? Batt box?

Also, one other OT question: I see "optical in" mentioned on some of
these players along with an analog line in. The analog line in I
understand...I think. It's what I'd run the AT853s into, no? If that's
the case, what does the optical do? Is the optical more for the 7-pin
connectors for Sony DATs? When I think 'optical' I think more along
the lines of wireless, which I know isn't the case.

Any and all advice would be most appreciated, thanks!

-b

In article ,
bmr wattershed_REMOVETHISANDTHEUNDERSCORES_@rocketmai l.com wrote:

Expectations: My favorite aud recordings by tapers have come from rigs
running well into the mid four figures.

My favorite tapes were made with Sony D7's and condensor mics, and
homemade mixers. I guess the D7 or D8's or whatever at the time were
$800 bucks, but I got mine for $50 :-)

bmr wrote:

(First, if there's a more appropriate ng for this question,

You may prefer the lower traffic over at alt.music.4-track and
alt.music.home-studio.

Price: From mics to recorder, I'm looking at a total cost of under
around $600, but would love to keep it below $450.

Aha.

Use: I'd use my rig for clubs/concert hall shows, primarily
rock music of a medium/heavy variety

You don't get a good result unless you do a full live remote job with
those. The budget may then run into at least USD 610, possibly a bit
more and your stated ceiling is USD 600.

Expectations: My favorite aud recordings by tapers
have come from rigs running well into the mid four figures.

This is not about money. Purist strategies have good mileage, but they
are not gonna work for the sources you want to record, and it is
questionable whether those sources want to be recorded like that.

Any and all advice would be most appreciated, thanks!

A-T have several one-point stereo mics. One model also features an
approximation of a linear frequency response, can't remember which.

Things not commented at are left to others ....

-b


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:48:30 GMT, (james)
wrote:

In article ,
bmr wattershed_REMOVETHISANDTHEUNDERSCORES_@rocketmai l.com wrote:

Expectations: My favorite aud recordings by tapers have come from rigs
running well into the mid four figures.

My favorite tapes were made with Sony D7's and condensor mics, and
homemade mixers. I guess the D7 or D8's or whatever at the time were
$800 bucks, but I got mine for $50 :-)

Well, the majority of those four figures were on the mics...though
usually the dat behind it was a D8 or 100.

I have the opportunity to get any Sony DAT for around 50% off retail,
though with a base unit that good I'd be doing everybody a disservice
if I went with anything less than some killer Schoeps...and I can't
swing that on my budget, at least not right now.

bmr wrote:

What I'm considering: I'll be transferring everything I record to my
PC for distribution. That said, the first things to catch my eye have
been the iRiver/Archos/Neuros/Nomad type players which seem to work as
portable hard drives. I'm a bit disappointed in the iRiver's 800 mb
file limit, but even moreso, I'm concerned about the ability of these
players to handle a live concert.

Contrary to what seems like the latest popular belief, the iRiver isn't the
only option in hard drive recorders. At the other end of the size, price and
cost spectrum you can score a factory refurb Nomad Jukebox 3 with warranty
for under $200. As an extra added attraction, the NJB3 doesn't have a file
size limit, other than the hard drive's capacity.

Do I need a preamp if I use this setup? Batt box?

Yes, you'll need some kind preamps and phantom supply if your mic need it.

Also, one other OT question: I see "optical in" mentioned on some of
these players along with an analog line in. The analog line in I
understand...I think. It's what I'd run the AT853s into, no?

Repeat, except under dire circumstances, you want some kind of mic preamp.

http://www.core-sound.com/inbox.html

http://www.core-sound.com/ati_ml200.html

If size isn't a major issue then you can move down the food chain and use
something like this small console, which can also be powered by batteries:

http://www.behringer.com/mxb1002/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This has worked well for me with my NJB3 given that I'm just looking for
convenience, as opposed to stealth.

If that's the case, what does the optical do?

It's used with external converters such as this one:

http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496.html

I've wondered about solid state recorders. Only one I actually know
of is a certain Marantz unit. All I know about it is from the
manufacturers propaganda. Never even seen a review. Anybody tried one?
Or is it vaporware? Or is media cost too high, or maybe problems with
flash chips?



Just curious,
James

"Arny Krueger" writes:

http://www.behringer.com/mxb1002/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This has worked well for me with my NJB3 given that I'm just looking for
convenience, as opposed to stealth.

Cool, how long can you run it on a set of batteries? And how does it
sound? I haven't figured out any reason why a two-channel preamp with
no features to speak of should be 2x as expensive as that 10 channel
mixing console with all the knobs and stuff. Thanks.

james wrote:
I've wondered about solid state recorders. Only one I actually know
of is a certain Marantz unit. All I know about it is from the
manufacturers propaganda. Never even seen a review. Anybody tried one?
Or is it vaporware? Or is media cost too high, or maybe problems with
flash chips?

I dunno, my Ampexes are both solid-state and they work just fine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
bmr wattershed_REMOVETHISANDTHEUNDERSCORES_@rocketmai l.com wrote:

I have the opportunity to get any Sony DAT for around 50% off retail,
though with a base unit that good I'd be doing everybody a disservice
if I went with anything less than some killer Schoeps...

Do people really think Sony input circuits are that good?

Schoeps? I mean, sure, fine. But you're on a budget. And you're doing
what, audience taping of rock shows? The weak link in your setup is gonna
be the preamp. How about "MXL603S", for a more down to earth solution?
Like, maybe 1/10th the cost?

Seriously, what you need is a pair of mics, a battery powered preamp
and/or 2 mike mixer, and a dat recorder. You need a decent case, a
decent stand, decent windscreens.

You probably won't find a taper from the Dead days who doesn't have at
least one item from Core Sound in his bag. "Low cost" stereo
audience/soundboard DAT taping is a "solved problem", thanks to the
whole jam band scene.

All that said, and I *know* better, but I'm surprised how good some of
my minidisc recordings are, just made with a freakin' MD and an electret
mic. That rig didn't actually cost me a cent. I have it in my backpack
at all times, because I use it to record my piano lessons, practice
sessions, lectures and so on, and it sometimes, um, accidentally gets
switched on at shows.

"Paul Rubin" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" writes:

http://www.behringer.com/mxb1002/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This has worked well for me with my NJB3 given that I'm just looking for
convenience, as opposed to stealth.

Cool, how long can you run it on a set of batteries? And how does it
sound? I haven't figured out any reason why a two-channel preamp with
no features to speak of should be 2x as expensive as that 10 channel
mixing console with all the knobs and stuff. Thanks.

Because the Denneke is built for professional use: very rugged, quality
components, quality connectors. It would, I expect, sound more transparent,
more lifelike than the Behringer. It is built for people who make their
living with equipment and for whom reliability is more important than inputs
and EQ. Behringer, on the other hand, builds to a price point for a mass
market. To be successful, they make the compromises they must to provide an
appealing product for a non-discriminating market, people whose world won't
end if the circuit board cracks or a connector becomes noisy.

Steve King

In article ,
Paul Rubin wrote:

no features to speak of should be 2x as expensive as that 10 channel
mixing console with all the knobs and stuff.

I wonder why my neighbor's Porsche 911 should be 4x as expensive as my
Volvo station wagon, when it doesn't even have power windows, a
hatchback, or even a proper back seat.

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I dunno, my Ampexes are both solid-state and they work just fine.

Uh, right. Are you pulling my leg, or do you really think I meant
"solid state" in the 1960's sense of the word? Or is there a
contemporary Ampex that I don't know about?

Anyway, I also just discovered the PDAudio. If all of Len's stuff is as
good as his cables, I might need to be saving up for that.

Hmm. I also just discovered Nagra solid-state recorders. Considering
your sig, I'm surprised you didn't mention those. Maybe I'll understand
better when I see the Nagra price list?

james wrote:
In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I dunno, my Ampexes are both solid-state and they work just fine.

Uh, right. Are you pulling my leg, or do you really think I meant
"solid state" in the 1960's sense of the word? Or is there a
contemporary Ampex that I don't know about?

It's the same sense. You're talking about solid-state media, not solid-state
recorders.

Anyway, I also just discovered the PDAudio. If all of Len's stuff is as
good as his cables, I might need to be saving up for that.

I'm hearing good things about it. The whole solid state media thing
gives me the willies, though. Depending on a host PDA gives me even
more willies, but then I won't depend on a PDA for my address book and
keep it on paper.

Hmm. I also just discovered Nagra solid-state recorders. Considering
your sig, I'm surprised you didn't mention those. Maybe I'll understand
better when I see the Nagra price list?

They are pretty good, and they are actually available. You pay, but you
get something that you can drop without worrying, and you get decent
converters. I don't think there is anything really comparable yet,
at least not until HHb gets their promised hardware out, and the Deva
comes out with a solid-state media option.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

(First, if there's a more appropriate ng for this question, please let
me know...but you folks seem quite knowledgeable around here so here
goes...)

This gets addressed frequently here. Use Google to search
rec.audio.pro for your favorite key words.

What I'm considering: I'll be transferring everything I record to my
PC for distribution.

All completely legal and morally correct, I assume? This is a really
tender subject here. I'd suggest that you check the DAT-Heads mailing
list (search for "DAT-Heads" to get the sign-up info) where either
they only "distribute" recordings of bands that say they don't mind,
or they don't give a **** whose music they bootleg and distribute.

The one thing preventing me from getting into recording thus far has
been the inability to enjoy the show as I like to (that is, dancing
around).

This will be a problem unless you can find a place to put your mics
where they'll be out of the way of dancers, and won't be dancing
around with you. The wind noise and crowd noise in the midst of a
bunch of dancers will make your recordings unlistenable.

To this effect, I've been looking into players that can
record wavs with a mic input (w/adjustable levels) that use flash
media cards. To handle a full show (plus opener) I'd need something in
the 3-4 gb range. Of course, my thinking behind this recording method
is solid state, allowing me (in theory) to bounce about to my heart's
content without worry about a skipping MD recorder, or a HD recorder
that gets irrecoverably damaged.

You've got that part down but a constantly moving microphone will make
a lousy recording every time. And if you can tie down the mic, you can
tie down the recorder. I don't think there's a flash card recorder
with acceptable fidelity within your price range yet. Maybe in a
couple of years if the idea catches on.

Also, one other OT question: I see "optical in" mentioned on some of
these players along with an analog line in. The analog line in I
understand...I think. It's what I'd run the AT853s into, no?

No. A Line Input is not sensitive enough for a microphone, so you'll
need a preamp between the mics and the line input. The Optical In is a
digital input which can be used with a mic preamp that has an optical
digital output such as the Core Sound MIC2496, but that will pretty
much blow your budget right there.

If you want to get a decent recording, forget dancing around. Find a
spot where things sound really good, stay there, and record. If you
want to dance, leave your recorder at home.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I'm hearing good things about it. The whole solid state media thing
gives me the willies, though.

I had all I wanted of volatile media with camera film. The real
problems I can see with, say, smartmedia and other compact flash
memory solutions:

1. If stuff gets even slightly corrupted, that's that. Same problem with
consumer DAT, and most other digital formats. At least if the device
has a well-known filesystem, there will be low-level editors and so on.

2. Write latency. Maybe this isn't really a problem if the deck is
reliable. Latency can be severe with any compression format.

Depending on a host PDA gives me even
more willies, but then I won't depend on a PDA for my address book and
keep it on paper.

Yeah, I'm not real comfortable with the idea either.

You pay

Couple grand, or twenty? The former, I can conceive of. The latter,
I'll need a baron or a duke to commission my works :-)

In article znr1080691729k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:

Find a spot where things sound really good, stay there, and record.

The best spot, being a rack space in the sound booth with a 2-channel mix
that's been setup for recording, separately from the FOH mix :-)

Arny Krueger wrote:

bmr wrote:


What I'm considering: I'll be transferring everything I record to my
PC for distribution. That said, the first things to catch my eye have
been the iRiver/Archos/Neuros/Nomad type players which seem to work as
portable hard drives. I'm a bit disappointed in the iRiver's 800 mb
file limit, but even moreso, I'm concerned about the ability of these
players to handle a live concert.


Contrary to what seems like the latest popular belief, the iRiver isn't the
only option in hard drive recorders. At the other end of the size, price and
cost spectrum you can score a factory refurb Nomad Jukebox 3 with warranty
for under $200. As an extra added attraction, the NJB3 doesn't have a file
size limit, other than the hard drive's capacity.

While you can still get them, it's out of production and
they haven't announced anything that records. I fear they
are abandoning that market.



Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:

At the other end of the size, price and
cost spectrum you can score a factory refurb Nomad Jukebox 3 with warranty
for under $200. As an extra added attraction, the NJB3 doesn't have a file
size limit, other than the hard drive's capacity.

Let me get this straight: A Nomad can function as a *recorder* ?
It will record wav format, uncompressed 16/44.1 audio? And you can
get the audio off the recorder without leaving the digital domain?

If that's the case, then the Nomad is everything that consumer minidisc
is not, and I'm so *in!*. I tried googling but everything I saw on the
nomad was just a mess, so I thought I'd just ask you.

(james) writes:
Let me get this straight: A Nomad can function as a *recorder* ?
It will record wav format, uncompressed 16/44.1 audio? And you can
get the audio off the recorder without leaving the digital domain?

Yes, correct. The model you want is Nomad 3 Jukebox a/k/a NJB3, not
any of the other models. The Neuros Audio gizmo (www.neurosaudio.com)
and iHP-120 can also function as recorders, and each has its good and
bad points.

If that's the case, then the Nomad is everything that consumer minidisc
is not, and I'm so *in!*. I tried googling but everything I saw on the
nomad was just a mess, so I thought I'd just ask you.

Note that unlike minidisc recorders, none of these consumer HD things
have built-in mic preamps. The NJB3 and Neuros are also quite a bit
larger and more power hungry than minidisc recorders. The iRiver is
maybe comparable in size, though still needs more power, and from a
non-removable internal rechargeable battery like an iPod .

In article ,
Paul Rubin wrote:

Note that unlike minidisc recorders, none of these consumer HD things
have built-in mic preamps.

Thank God!

The NJB3 and Neuros are also quite a bit
larger and more power hungry than minidisc recorders.

If only my MD had a digital output, I'd be totally satisfied
with it. I can't honestly say it's all that bad, it just rubs
me the wrong way. All I use it for is recording my piano practice
and reading college textbooks for blind students, so it's not as if
I need super high fidelity. But it still gets on my nerves that I
can't live in digital :-)

(james) writes:
If only my MD had a digital output, I'd be totally satisfied
with it. I can't honestly say it's all that bad, it just rubs
me the wrong way. All I use it for is recording my piano practice
and reading college textbooks for blind students, so it's not as if
I need super high fidelity. But it still gets on my nerves that I
can't live in digital :-)

In that case you probably can get by recording MP3 instead of WAV.
That gives you a few more options, like the Archos Jukebox recorders.

In article ,
Paul Rubin wrote:

In that case you probably can get by recording MP3 instead of WAV.
That gives you a few more options, like the Archos Jukebox recorders.

The last time I visited this was long enough in the past that mp3
encoding was too slow for there to be practical realtime recorders.
I guess I should be paying attention!

(james) writes:

In article ,
Paul Rubin wrote:

In that case you probably can get by recording MP3 instead of WAV.
That gives you a few more options, like the Archos Jukebox recorders.

The last time I visited this was long enough in the past that mp3
encoding was too slow for there to be practical realtime recorders.
I guess I should be paying attention!

Go to rec.audio.minidisc and read all the flames there. There is a new
standard coming (Hi-MD) what will allow WAV recording and digital upload.
This sounds like the ideal machine. All the benefits of MD (nice user
interface, rugged design, low battery power) and completely digital.

I am a computer techie like most people around here, but I want to have my
recording simple. I don't need an iPod or Jukebox to organize my tunes. I
don't need a PC to play them. I just want to hit record and have a few beers.
This seems like the best solution.

In the meantime, buy a minidisc deck with digital out. I bought a used
one for around $50USD on ebay. Then plug an optical cable into a dirt
cheap USB audio device like Soundblaster MP3+. Problem solved!

Well, almost, I do have a question: I sometimes notice periodic clicks and
pops when I capture digital audio. They are semi regular, and occur in only
one channel mostly. Could this be due to resampling or something? As far as
I know the Soundblaster *outputs* at only 48kHz, but it should be able to
input at both 44.1 and 48k. Could there be a clock skew problem? Could it be
a poor cable?

Richard

writes:
In the meantime, buy a minidisc deck with digital out. I bought a used
one for around $50USD on ebay. Then plug an optical cable into a dirt
cheap USB audio device like Soundblaster MP3+. Problem solved!

But they you get the uploads in ATRAC format, for which there's no
decoders, right?

In article ,
Paul Rubin wrote:


writes:
In the meantime, buy a minidisc deck with digital out. I bought a used
one for around $50USD on ebay. Then plug an optical cable into a dirt
cheap USB audio device like Soundblaster MP3+. Problem solved!

But they you get the uploads in ATRAC format, for which there's no
decoders, right?

Ew, is that true? I just want SP/DIF 16/48. I don't mind the
aberration of ATRAC, I just don't want to leave the digital domain.
Sony gave me exactly this with my DATman, why'd they have to take
it away with MD?

My gripe is that I want Sony to take their damned hands off *my* music.

I only really have a couple of recording endeavors that matter, I play
classical piano (university grad level, semi-pro, has-been I guess;-),
and I record plain speech (books on tape for blind students). Sometimes
I wet my voice, sometimes I put a little music or sound effects in
there, but it's gotta be on the down low :-) I also play flute, not
nearly as proficiently as keyboards, and then there are my synths,
computer stuff, you get the idea.

I hate that, because somebody in the music industry thinks I might
misappropriate someone else's recording for nefarious purposes, Sony
puts a death grip on my own music and works to make it expensive or
complicated for me to keep my recordings in the digital domain. In the
case of the minidisc, I'm forced to send it through a pretty crappy
ADC. Mannr offers a good solution, but $50 pro MD decks aren't exactly
fallin' off trees :-)

Thinking about Paul's question, I think the answer is no, it's the
optical 16/48 output. I could use that. If only...

Maybe the head won't wear out on my D7 before one of these new MD
recorders comes out :-)

I'm just whining, ranting, and hopefully giving an example of why
someone might need decent gear without being able to justify a pro audio
budget. Thanks for sticking with me!


James

Bob Cain wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Contrary to what seems like the latest popular belief, the iRiver
isn't the only option in hard drive recorders. At the other end of
the size, price and cost spectrum you can score a factory refurb
Nomad Jukebox 3 with warranty for under $200. As an extra added
attraction, the NJB3 doesn't have a file size limit, other than the
hard drive's capacity.

While you can still get them, it's out of production and
they haven't announced anything that records. I fear they
are abandoning that market.


oops!

In article writes:

I haven't figured out any reason why a two-channel preamp with
no features to speak of should be 2x as expensive as that 10 channel
mixing console with all the knobs and stuff.

No features? How about the most important one? It sounds better.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

As an extra added attraction, the NJB3 doesn't have a file
size limit, other than the hard drive's capacity.

While you can still get them, it's out of production and
they haven't announced anything that records.

What? My Jukebox 3 is obsolete already! Oy gevalt! Guess I'll have to
get ProTools now. g

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article jtrac.17898$Q45.7779@fed1read02 writes:

Let me get this straight: A Nomad can function as a *recorder* ?
It will record wav format, uncompressed 16/44.1 audio? And you can
get the audio off the recorder without leaving the digital domain?

The Jukebox 3 does this. I don't know about other models.

If that's the case, then the Nomad is everything that consumer minidisc
is not, and I'm so *in!*. I tried googling but everything I saw on the
nomad was just a mess, so I thought I'd just ask you.

There's been plenty of discussion in this newsgroup about recording
with the Jukebox 3, but you're right, the web site doesn't really
emphasize recording capabilities. I think Bob's right - they realize
that this isn't a major market, so they're likely to abandon it. One
more confirmation of my "theory" that recording is stricly a "pro"
application.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article Kgsac.17904$Q45.16760@fed1read02 writes:

If only my MD had a digital output, I'd be totally satisfied
with it.

What's it worth to you? Many tabletop MiniDisk recorders (which are
completely compatible with portables) have a digital output, and they
aren't very expensive. It's still a real time transfer, but it's
digital.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

OK, RUN AWAY!

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio