Forgive me if I'm using the wrong terminology here, but I'll try to
explain clearly enough what I'm talking about.

I'm attempting to help my friends at Mackie to help their MDR24/96
customers. One of the limitations of the initial HDR/MDR recorders
that became significant in the past couple of years is that the PC
mother board that they're based on can't recognize a disk drive larger
than 32 GB. If this was a "normal" PC, either the mother board would
have been replaced by the time something like that happened, or the
BIOS would be flashed to accommodate larger drives. I did the later
myself a couple of years ago on my ancient studio computer.

But this is not a really common mother board, and everyone is afraid
of swapping it out with something newer. I don't recall the
manufacturer, but someone on the forum a while back did a flash BIOS
update and claimed that he could use larger disk drives. Mackie said
they tested that update and found that it wasn't as reliable and
stable as the original (no details) so they didn't recommend it and
didn't support it. However, they did work with eSupport to get an
updated BIOS that worked well in the application, and now offer a
replacement chip for $50 or so. (and for anyone who's tried to order
the chip and found it back-ordered, they have 50 of them coming this
week)

Since this was a cusotm BIOS, it's licensed to Mackie only, and their
license agreement won't allow them to distribute data to flash your
old BIOS (heck, it won't even allow them to make their own chips, they
have to get them from eSupport) so let's not get into what someone
else might do or is doing.

Anyway, the chips can be dealt with by anyone willing to spend the
$50. Thing is that after installing the new BIOS chip, you have to go
through the CMOS setup (this is where I'm not sure if I'm using the
correct term) - the pages of stuff that you access when you press the
F1, F2. DEL, or whatever key while the computer is booting - and
change several settings from the defaults. This isn't a big deal on
the HDR which has provisions for a keyboard and monitor (most users
are running in this mode) and Mackie provides a list of the correct
settings.

However, the MDR does not have a video or keyboard port so if you were
to install the new BIOS chip in that recorder, without some (ahem)
modification, you can't make the CMOS setup changes. For this reason,
Mackie does not support installation of the new BIOS in the MDR, and
only those creative owners have been able to take advantage of it.

That's the background. Now for the question.

I recall from back in the old PC days, there were utilities that would
save the (at the time we called) it "BIOS Setup" (and it may still be
called that, which is why I'm unsure of the terminology) to a floppy
disk, and load it back in when desired. I figure that if such a
utility was available for current mother boards, Mackie could provide
it, plus the data, plus a bootable floppy, to MDR owners as part of
the BIOS kit. They could change the chip, boot up with the floppy
disk, and an autoexec.bat file with a command line to the CMOS load
utility would automatically load the correct data without having to
manually enter the changes. It would also make installation easier for
HDR users, and provide a way to reset in case of a battery failure.

Mackie is willing to do this if they have the tool.

I wrote to eSupport asking if any of their utilities would do this,
and they said any of the BIOS Flash utilities on their web site would
work. They aren't making any money on this and I didn't want to pester
them any further, so I'm asking here for a better understanding of
what's going on if you use one of those.

A subsidiary question (maybe this should be the real question) is
this: Where is what I call the CMOS Setup data stored? Is it written
into memory on the BIOS chip? Is it stored in a separate chip? Or,
does it become integral with the BIOS firmware?

The concern is that if you save the settings, are you saving just the
settings, or the complete BIOS program code as modified by the user
setup entries? If that's the way it works, then anyone with the data
could flash their existing BIOS, get the new code that allows the
larger disk drive, and have all the proper settings. However this
would take license control out of Mackie's hands and they wouldn't go
for that. Since data is just data, it would be easy for one user to
pass the BIOS/CMOS data on to another.

So, if it's possible to "flash" only the setup data without the BIOS
code, how is that done?



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The bios contains read-only code for basic low-level functions and an area
of 128 bytes (last i heard) nvram for setup data.

I once wrote a small pgm to save and restore the setup data to/from a file.
It runs from dos and you're welcome to a copy, although I'm sure there are
similar programs floating around.

For more better opinions, you should ask in a different group:
comp.lang.asm.x86
microsoft.public.masm
alt.windows98

On 30 Mar 2004 15:12:42 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

Where is what I call the CMOS Setup data stored? Is it written
into memory on the BIOS chip?

Yes.

Is it stored in a separate chip? Or,
does it become integral with the BIOS firmware?

It's kept in a way different from the firmware, a way that also
requires battery power. Sometimes the battery is inside the
plastic "IC" package.

So, if it's possible to "flash" only the setup data without the BIOS
code, how is that done?

You want to restore only the user settings, without the "flash
firmware" ? Should be doable by sending the equivalent of the
appropriate keystrokes to enter BIOS setup, change to screen A,
move down X steps, enter value 666, etc.

Way over my head, but trivial for somebody younger and literate.

The BIOS writer, Award or whoever, may have a utility already, maybe
even built in, but the record to floppy portion would require a real
keyboard. Is Mackie willing to mod one machine to include keyboard
chip and jack?

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

In article writes:

The bios contains read-only code for basic low-level functions and an area
of 128 bytes (last i heard) nvram for setup data.

So is all of this transferred to the "backup" file that you can create
with (for example) the Award BIOS flash utility? I suspect that it is.

I did a little experimenting today, using the Award flash program to
copy the data from the HDR (upgraded) BIOS and then trying to use that
to flash the BIOS in the MDR. It didn't work, but the reason why is
because it reported that the part number of the source didn't match
the system to which I was trying to load it. That's good news in terms
of protecting Mackie's license agreement since it means you can't turn
a stock MDR BIOS into an upgraded BIOS just by having the data file.

Since I didn't know that the backup I made is for sure good, I didn't
try making some changes to the CMOS in the HDR, then flash it with the
original data file, and see if the CMOS settings were restored. Just a
chicken at heart, I guess. That's something that Mackie can test since
they can ruin their equipment as much as they need to.

I once wrote a small pgm to save and restore the setup data to/from a file.
It runs from dos and you're welcome to a copy, although I'm sure there are
similar programs floating around.

That's what I would have thought too, but searching ZD and Tucows
didn't turn up anything.


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I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article
writes:

I once wrote a small pgm to save and restore the setup data to/from
a file. It runs from dos and you're welcome to a copy, although I'm
sure there are similar programs floating around.

That's what I would have thought too, but searching ZD and Tucows
didn't turn up anything.

What about

http://www.sharewaresoft.com/CMOSSave-download-9254.htm

http://lists.gpick.com/pages/CMOS_Tools.htm

In article writes:

You want to restore only the user settings, without the "flash
firmware" ?

Yes. In other words, the CMOS setup without having to use a keyboard
and monitor. (because in this application, they don't exist)

Should be doable by sending the equivalent of the
appropriate keystrokes to enter BIOS setup, change to screen A,
move down X steps, enter value 666, etc.

Dreamer!

The BIOS writer, Award or whoever, may have a utility already, maybe
even built in, but the record to floppy portion would require a real
keyboard. Is Mackie willing to mod one machine to include keyboard
chip and jack?

Sure, it's called an HDR24/96, and it uses the same BIOS with the same
CMOS settings. And I know some creative MDR users have cut out the
trim panel to access the keyboard connector and installed a graphics
card temporarily in the "accessory" PCI slot. But Mackie doesn't want
every MDR user to get that deep into the guts of their machine. You
know how many people ask for detailed instructions for soldering a
two-conductor cable. Best not to let them get inside the recorder that
they're depending on to work every time they push the Record button.

Getting the data file isn't the problem, it's loading the
setup data while protecting the license to the BIOS firmware code
(which means not distributing it along with the setup data).



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
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In article writes:

http://www.sharewaresoft.com/CMOSSave-download-9254.htm
http://lists.gpick.com/pages/CMOS_Tools.htm

Thanks. You're a better searcher than I am. I was a bit surprised that one
from 1996 works fine with the CMOS in the Mackie. Guess they don't make
that many advancements. g The fact that it can run unattended from a
command line in an autoexec.bat file means that it can be used in the
application.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
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(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1080670444k@trad...

---snippedy snip snip--

It would probably be best for Mackie to institute a policy that
calls for the owners to send in their units to have this done by
Mackie techs in house, since it's not impossible for the owners to
screw things up no matter how foolproof you think you've made the DIY
version. Even better would be to make it a package deal where Mackie
supplies the new larger hard drive that they, Mackie, have selected
and feel comfortable about staking the reputation of their machines
on.
Tell Mackie to tell eSupport to supply them a version of the
SAVECMOS utility (and the corresponding utility to restore the
settings saved by SAVECMOS) that will work with those new BIOS chips.
(If they can't supply that they aren't qualified to supply the new
BIOS)
The save and restore utilities should go on a boot floppy. The
unit owners should boot with that floppy, use the save program to save
the settings into a file that gets written onto the floppy, turn off
the unit, open it up and swap BIOS chips (taking the proper
anti-static precautions all the while), put the machine back together,
reboot with same floppy, use restore program to write saved CMOS
settings to new BIOS chip.
That the manufacturer (Mackie) couldn't figure this out all on
their own makes me very uneasy.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article
writes:

http://www.sharewaresoft.com/CMOSSave-download-9254.htm
http://lists.gpick.com/pages/CMOS_Tools.htm

Thanks. You're a better searcher than I am.

It was easier to google than to look up the files on my in-house server.

I was a bit surprised
that one from 1996 works fine with the CMOS in the Mackie.

I don't think a lot has changed since the PC/AT which was more like 1986.

Guess they don't make that many advancements.

There have been lotsa changes nearby, but not right *here*.

g The fact that it can run
unattended from a command line in an autoexec.bat file means that it
can be used in the application.

Exactly. If I have to make up a batch of machines that need non-standard
BIOS parameters I save the CMOS from one machine and load it onto all of
them with a bootable floppy.

On 31 Mar 2004 07:46:18 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

Should be doable by sending the equivalent of the
appropriate keystrokes to enter BIOS setup, change to screen A,
move down X steps, enter value 666, etc.

Dreamer!

Funny you should mention that. I woke up this morning with
a different way of thinking about the problem. If, as another
poster has said, all of the user information is still kept
in the original BIOS data area from hex 000400 to 0004FF,
then maybe a DEBUG program could be written that simply
overwrote all 256 CMOS memory locations in one swell foop.

That could still be plenty small enough to fit on the boot
floppy. Maybe that's what the programs Arny pointed to are
doing.

On second thought, you already know all this.

Getting the data file isn't the problem, it's loading the
setup data while protecting the license to the BIOS firmware code
(which means not distributing it along with the setup data).

Excellent; then they're more than halfway there.
And I think the step you're helping them with would be
necessary even if they could just post the firmware code.

But why can't the firmware code have the correct user
setup data as defaults? Award has some 'spaining to do.

Chris Hornbeck

On 31 Mar 2004 07:37:43 -0800, (unitron) wrote:

That the manufacturer (Mackie) couldn't figure this out all on
their own makes me very uneasy.

The problem is no keyboard and no video.

Chris Hornbeck

In article writes:

It would probably be best for Mackie to institute a policy that
calls for the owners to send in their units to have this done by
Mackie techs in house

Neither Mackie nor the owners would put up with this. These are owners
who expect every upgrade for free and squeal about having to pay for
the new BIOS ROM. If Mackie handled the upgrade, it would probably
cost $100 or more. At least some people are willing to pay for the
chip and I haven't heard of anyone who's screwed up their machine
badly enough to not be able to fix it with a little help. Most of the
replacements go peacefully.

That the manufacturer (Mackie) couldn't figure this out all on
their own makes me very uneasy.

Oh, they figured it out, they just had some reasons for not wanting to
do it. One is that the MDR is a discontinued model so they don't feel
obligated to modify it, only to service it for a while. But there are
some new people around now and they might be willing to provide the
tools on a "use at your own risk" basis. That's kind of how they're
approaching the new BIOS anyway. They're confident that it will be as
reliable as the original, and that it will accommodate larger disk
drives, but they won't accept responsibility for a problem with any
disk drive that they don't sell, regardless of the size. Many people
take this to mean "We don't really support larger disk drives" but
it's really no different than modifying your computer. Put something
in there that that the manufacturer didn't and they might not want to
fix it for you.

I know we all like to blow off steam now and then, but it would be
nice if when a manufacturer is looking for a way to help their
customers, you'd try to be of asssitance rather than say that they
(and their supplier) have their heads up their asses. Oh, well,
that's the way of Usenet.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

If, as another
poster has said, all of the user information is still kept
in the original BIOS data area from hex 000400 to 0004FF,
then maybe a DEBUG program could be written that simply
overwrote all 256 CMOS memory locations in one swell foop.

One of the links Arny posted led me to a tiny little program that
saves, loads, and also verifies (compares the data file with what's in
the computer) the CMOS settings. It seems to work just fine, and it
runs from a command line so it can be set up with a bootable floppy to
just stick in and run.

But why can't the firmware code have the correct user
setup data as defaults? Award has some 'spaining to do.

Probalby because they never asked. I suggested that to Mackie. I'll
bet that if they sent them the settings, they could get the chips
programmed ready to run. I'm sure it's no more trouble.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
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Mike Rivers wrote:

One of the links Arny posted led me to a tiny little program that
saves, loads, and also verifies (compares the data file with what's in
the computer) the CMOS settings. It seems to work just fine, and it
runs from a command line so it can be set up with a bootable floppy to
just stick in and run.

They could offer a downloadable boot floppy image without paying license fees by using http://www.freedos.org/