(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1077109279k@trad...
In article writes:

I've never experienced a club owner negotiating pay based on the number
of people in the band. More often pay is based on the number of drinks
purchased by the audiences the bands draw.

Dollars per man isn't really what the club owner sees, but it's a
convenient way for the band to count their chickens. As you say, how
much the club owner pays out for entertainment is based on how much he
expects to take in because he has that entertainment.

Your right, I have had civic organisations use the "per man" standard
but it is a rare case. I agree most clubs don't care if your a solo
kazoo player. Just as long as you make the cash register ring.

I have seen countless talented ensemble players leave music just
because the money got too small. (I mean ensemble by large bands 7 to
15 piece.) It's tough to put together a large group. There are so
many talented players I would love to hire but I just can't because it
wouldn't add anything financially.

There is the blatent form of undercutting that goes on. A typical
scenario is you quote a festival for 1500$ and then some goof quotes
350$. I didn't mention this as it wasn't really where the thread was
heading (way off topic about overkill on equipment) but blatent
undercutting is indeed another sad reality of any music scene. That
includes overkill on equipment and personel.

What I am mostly pointing out as undercutting is the non-pro bands who
only play for enjoyment. Some of these bands are quite good but they
don't care much about money as long as they can enjoy their hobby.
Some of these bands have great PAs with good roadie and tech support.
These bands have the luxury of adding an extra fiddle, steel, horn
section, percussion...ect... and they go into a place and play for
300$. To them it doesn't matter that they make money as long as they
enjoy their music. I have friends in such bands and often advise them
on what rate they should expect. They tell me clubs just don't want
to pay that kind of money when the club can get the same crowd with a
200$ kareoke act. It's a sad situation. (Whining deleted..)

I know it's just the reality of intense competition. Bands will do
whatever they can to get what they want. To be accurate I should say
the undercutting comes at what quality of music is offered at such a
cheap price.

With that said, I should point out that what is making money for bars
these days is very poor music; Kareoke, terrible cover bands, DJs.
Most people have no clue of what a good band sounds like because they
are so used to hearing what the coorperations have been spoon feeding
us. Monopolys control many large venues and radio stations. It's to
the point that there are no independant radio stations simply because
of the the advertising demographic surveys.

My hope is eventually someday... the people will notice we are being
spoon fed crap. My hope is people will venture out to hear if there
is something more. If your a performer just make sure you have
something more. That may require hauling around a hammond B3. Really
though I think the "something more" is just having gifted vocalists.
(Alot less gear to haul)

IR

"Iowa Recorder" wrote in message
om...

Your right, I have had civic organisations use the "per man" standard
but it is a rare case. I agree most clubs don't care if your a solo
kazoo player. Just as long as you make the cash register ring.

Yeah, they usually don't pay per man, but they'll all do the math in
their heads when they're talking about pay, and $50 a man is pretty average.

I have seen countless talented ensemble players leave music just
because the money got too small. (I mean ensemble by large bands 7 to
15 piece.) It's tough to put together a large group. There are so
many talented players I would love to hire but I just can't because it
wouldn't add anything financially.

That's the reason my 6 piece isn't a 15 piece. I want horns, backup
singers, a fiddle, a percussionist, and so on, but we would make $1.50 each
at the end of the night. And that just won't pay out bar tabs, dammit.
However, there are several good horn players around Dallas who know us and
and sit in whenever they can, which is pretty much any time they show up to
our gigs. Also, our drummer's girlfriend is a pretty damn good fiddle
player, so she sits in whenever she's in town.

300$. To them it doesn't matter that they make money as long as they
enjoy their music. I have friends in such bands and often advise them

We're sort of there, but at the same time, offering us $200 for a 4-5
hour show with at least 6 people performing is kind of insulting. In fact, I
would (and do) play free for charities before I'd play a bar for only a
couple hundred bucks.

I know it's just the reality of intense competition. Bands will do
whatever they can to get what they want. To be accurate I should say
the undercutting comes at what quality of music is offered at such a
cheap price.

Well... the real problem is that quality has nothing to do with it. It's
sheer beer sales. The venues don't care if you suck, they just care how much
beer is sold while you play there. If your band is great but there's no
noticable difference in alcohol sales on nights you play, then they're not
going to pay you any more than the 3 piece garage band that sucks. To the
venue, you are of equal quality.

though I think the "something more" is just having gifted vocalists.

Actually, there is something to that (and not just because I'm a singer
: ). A band with good vocals, which includes strong backup vocals and full
harmonies, just comes across as a better band than a band that is actually
better but has weaker vocals. If you have a really great guitarist or
keyboardist, people will only notice it during the solos. But great vocals,
strong 3 or 4 part harmonies, etc, will improve the overall perception of
the band as a whole. IME, of course.

ryanm

In article writes:

What I am mostly pointing out as undercutting is the non-pro bands who
only play for enjoyment. Some of these bands are quite good but they
don't care much about money as long as they can enjoy their hobby.

That's the same as people who have a hobby of recording, or a hobby of
recording as an extension of playing or writing music. We saw the same
thing with the proliferation of home studios in the '80's - they can
easily undercut professional studios because they have practical no
overhead, no business licenses to obtain, no requirement to build
disabled-accessable bathrooms, and usually manage to dodge some taxes
for which licensed businesses are obligated.

However, it's probably easier to be a really good hobby band than to
be a really good hobby studio. I guess you just have to deal with it.

Some of these bands have great PAs with good roadie and tech support.
These bands have the luxury of adding an extra fiddle, steel, horn
section, percussion...ect... and they go into a place and play for
300$. To them it doesn't matter that they make money as long as they
enjoy their music.

NAMM has been doing a promotion called "Weekend Warriors" to sell
musical equipment to people with plenty of money. I recall one of
their ads showed a band made up of people dressed as a judge, a
surgeon, a professor, an engineer . . . with text sort of like "The
combined annual income of this band is $1.5 million. Are you getting a
share of it?"

With that said, I should point out that what is making money for bars
these days is very poor music; Kareoke, terrible cover bands, DJs.

So why do people go to those bars? To hear the bad music? Maybe it's
just because they don't feel drawn to listen to the music so they can
spend more time taking and drinking. Of course that's what the owners
like best. Occasionally you'll find a club with really good music (and
music that's properly paid for) where they shut you up if you talk
while the band is playing, but that's more like going to a concert
where you can get a drink or some food than a place to talk where
there's some music to talk over. With $15-30 cover charge, it can
work. With no cover, you get what you pay for, and sometimes you're
lucky.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

That's the reason my 6 piece isn't a 15 piece. I want horns, backup
singers, a fiddle, a percussionist, and so on, but we would make $1.50 each
at the end of the night.

We got a quote of like $900 for city sponsored gig and we went back and said
"we" needed $1500 and they said "Oh, we would pay that for a 12 piece band but
not this 4 piece".





---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Mike Rivers wrote:

So why do people go to those bars?

To try to get laid.

Michael R. Kesti wrote:

I've never experienced a club owner negotiating pay based on the number
of people in the band. More often pay is based on the number of drinks
purchased by the audiences the bands draw.

A situation I've seen more often is clubs that will only hire bands of a
certain size or a certain instrumentation. Some won't hire a duo. Some
won't hire a group without a drummer. A lot of times the places that will
hire a duo pay so little that you could make more as a trio in a different
club. Hopefully, you can find the critical mass that works in your
geographical area.

The silliest example I ever ran across was in the mid-80s when a lot of
Motel lounges still had bands & dance floors. One lounge manager told me
he could only hire "Show Bands" He defined a Show Band as having as least
6 players, at least one male & one female singer, playing current top 40
covers, and wearing some kind of uniform. Some of these bands were
actually quite good, but I always thought the Robot-Dancing Horn Section
thing was kind of over the top.

"EggHd" wrote in message
...

We got a quote of like $900 for city sponsored gig and we went back and
said
"we" needed $1500 and they said "Oh, we would pay that for a 12 piece band
but
not this 4 piece".

Tell 'em you each play 3 instruments, and that makes you a 12 piece. ; )

ryanm

ryanm wrote:

"EggHd" wrote in message
...

"we" needed $1500 and they said "Oh, we would pay that for a 12 piece band
but not this 4 piece".

Tell 'em you each play 3 instruments, and that makes you a 12 piece. ; )

Is that actually specified in the union scale rules? If you double on
an instrument, you're supposed to collect a doubling fee. Not that
I've ever heard of anyone following the union rules...

- Logan

Not that I've ever heard of anyone following the union rules...

Aight. AFTRA turns into a powerhouse and AFofM is weak. How the heck did this
happen?



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article ,
(EggHd) wrote:

Not that I've ever heard of anyone following the union rules...

Aight. AFTRA turns into a powerhouse and AFofM is weak. How the heck did
this
happen?



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"


In the case of the AFofM, they harrassed high-school musicians to the point of
revolution. In the '60s, I was "leader" of a rock band that joined the AFofM in
order to play real gigs. Our local was run by the
brass-band-in-the-park-on-Sunday crowd who insisted on union scale for school
dances and parties and followed us around to check. That served to engender a
mistrust of the union, who followed up by failing to help us when a club owner
reneged on payment. What exactly was the union doing for us for that 2%?

Had the union been helpful and made allowances for student musicians, I know my
feelings would have been different. I've played clubs on and off for 35 years
and have never needed the AFofM. Of course, we're still making about $6/hour...
and the local I joined is long gone.

In essence, the AFofM convinced me I couldn't expect to make a living playing
music.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

In essence, the AFofM convinced me I couldn't expect to make a living
playing
music.

But even in recording they have no pull (except for Symphonies) and AFTRA rules
the roost.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article ,
(EggHd) wrote:

In essence, the AFofM convinced me I couldn't expect to make a living
playing
music.

But even in recording they have no pull (except for Symphonies) and AFTRA
rules
the roost.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"


I think symphonic players (not just recording) are still influenced by the
AFofM, but popular music seems to have side-stepped the union.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote in message ...

I've never experienced a club owner negotiating pay based on the number
of people in the band. More often pay is based on the number of drinks
purchased by the audiences the bands draw.

Me either.
Most places around here charge a cover at the door, and the band gets
to take that home. If your crowd won't drink a lot, it's an uphill
battle; regardless of your success, skill, or experience.

For this reason, my involvement in local weeknight gigs has ended. I
can get paid more to teach a few guitar lessons in a day than to gig
for peanuts.

-dave
www.themoodrings.com (green ring = sounds)

In article ,
wrote:

[snip]

I joined the AFM back when I was in high school also. that was the
heyday for live music where I grew up, there is no scene now there and
wasn't for much longer than a lot of places.

tHe AFM in my locale, local 646 in Southeastern IOwa had a program
where you could pay your annual and your work dues instead of the 4%
rate by just giving them $10 a year. FOr a road band who gigged in
the area a lot that option was still available.


Sounds like your local was more enlightened than mine (Local 510 San Leandro
CA). At the time, there was a great local music scene: I saw bands like the
Yardbirds, the Turtles, Buffalo Springfield at the local roller skating arena
from 10' away. We often played there, played a gig opening for Muddy Waters,
all of this in little Hayward CA. It was truly a golden age as far as local
music was concerned. Once Bill Graham started the Filmore, it all died in favor
of huge corporate productions.

wHat killed it for me was seeing guys with large dixieland bands etc.
going to these places and booking the job for under scale and then
bitching about it if others did it.

I did end up working some gigs where I got paid through the Musicians'
performance trust fund. That was one good program I saw that AFM
offered.


We did some gigs for the California Youth Authority via the AFM Performance
Trust Fund. Got to see all the guys that suddenly disappeared from high school.
That was probably the only payback we ever got from our union involvement...that
and some fun stories.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

"Jay Kadis" wrote ...

Our local was run by the
brass-band-in-the-park-on-Sunday crowd who insisted on union scale for
school
dances and parties and followed us around to check. That served to
engender a
mistrust of the union, who followed up by failing to help us when a club
owner
reneged on payment. What exactly was the union doing for us for that 2%?

Our local was run by the old accordion players. They didn't have much in the
way of equipment expenses, and they didn't understand that we did. So they
kept the scale _way_ down.
To be fair: When I lost a drummer, called the club owner to report what I
was doing to remedy the situation and was told that the replacement had
better not be black, the local backed me up when I dishonored my contract.
Not much later, I moved to [large city] to try my luck. Called the union
about finding work. The voice at the other end said I would have to bring my
union card in and surrender it, then wait six months, get my card back, then
ask again. So much for the "international brotherhood" ****.

Ever since, I have resisted institutions of any sort.

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1077194925k@trad...
In article writes:


Some of these bands have great PAs with good roadie and tech support.
These bands have the luxury of adding an extra fiddle, steel, horn
section, percussion...ect... and they go into a place and play for
300$. To them it doesn't matter that they make money as long as they
enjoy their music.

NAMM has been doing a promotion called "Weekend Warriors" to sell
musical equipment to people with plenty of money. I recall one of
their ads showed a band made up of people dressed as a judge, a
surgeon, a professor, an engineer . . . with text sort of like "The
combined annual income of this band is $1.5 million. Are you getting a
share of it?"

That's pretty funny. We have a band composed of just doctors in our
area. They are touted as the most over educated band in Iowa.


With that said, I should point out that what is making money for bars
these days is very poor music; Kareoke, terrible cover bands, DJs.

So why do people go to those bars? To hear the bad music? Maybe it's
just because they don't feel drawn to listen to the music so they can
spend more time taking and drinking. Of course that's what the owners
like best.

Your comments made me think a bit about this. My impression is alot
of it is just plain smart marketing. I can make several examples.

One band has bumper stickers and regilia of various biker gangs all
over thier stage setup. They are terrible but they play music that
bikers love and so they market themselves very well. In the summer
they have it made playing all the various Harley Davidson oriented
festivals.

Another band does goofy stuff like handing out free cheese balls. The
cheese ball band has promo and marketing material that is very funny.
Often thier gigs are advertised as "special" events such as "Free
cheese night" ect... It is funny how bad they are and they admit "we
suck" but in such a humorous way that it is appealing. Their a funny
bunch of guys and crowds like this.

Again I'm not gonna whine about this. It's long been known that
musical talent alone won't do it. Mostly it is the way a product is
marketed that makes it successful. I think anyone getting into music
professionally should know some things about marketing.

As for kareoke. The marketing is in what I call the "me generation".
Through the years I have seen a gradual shift in crowds. People want
more attention. People want to steal the lime light more. I remember
a time where people didn't have a burning desire to sing with the
band. Then it started to change. This change happened LONG before
kareoke. It seemed the crowds starting to have more attention seeking
behavior. More and more at gigs girls would want to jump on stage to
dance (which I kinda like) or worse sing. I guess more and more with
the 2 parents working and the kids getting less attention they look
else where for it - kareoke.

I won't knock DJ's. I like going into these loud rooms just thumping
with a beat. As someone who admires recordings, I like hearing some
of these dance mixes realise their full potential. Also all the women
dancing is a plus I guess. grin The fantastic light shows they
install in these places alone are entertaining. The good DJs I have
seen in the big clubs keep up on what is hot, fresh and popular.
Usually they don't play much of what you hear on the radio. Rare to
find a radio DJ who is this well researched.

I don't like DJs for weddings because I just know my band can do a
much better job. Still there is this automatic protical of getting a
DJ for the wedding. one reason I see for this is some of the DJs are
very good at running contests, doing the throwing of the boquet, the
garter thingy... ect... They can also spin the latest song by rubber
bannana for the wedding slow dance. So they have their merits.
Another reason is too many bands have botched up. Many bands have no
clue of how important the cerimonial part of the wedding reception is
and the need to have appropriate repitiore to play weddings. My band
does very well at playing weddings simply because we can cover a wider
range of music than even a DJ.

Again as a performer I can't afford to whine or make excuses. I have
to adapt. Still on-going. Anyone know of any good online resources
to learn about marketing?

IR

Iowa Recorder wrote:

That's pretty funny. We have a band composed of just doctors in our
area. They are touted as the most over educated band in Iowa.

If their music makes me sick, can they take my appendix out on stage?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

ryanm wrote:

Tell 'em you each play 3 instruments, and that makes you a 12 piece. ;

While vacationing on Hilton Head last week, my wife & I stopped into a
smallish restaurant/bar & were delighted to see a small PA set up in one
corner. WThe bartender told us they had an acoustic guitarist/singer
coming in & that he was "really good". We had only stopped in for a
couple of beers & appetizers, but decided to stay for dinner.

Sitting, at the bar, our backs were towards the stage. The guy starts off
with "Sweet Baby James. Nice job, all the right chord voicings. He has a
nice voice (reminds me of Lyle Lovett). He's singing in his own voice, not
trying to do James Taylors's voice (which is something I admire in a
singer).

I can't remember what the second song was, but what I do remember was that
all of a sudden, they guy is playing lead against a sampled loop of his
rhythm part. Next song, he's singing three part harmony with himself. I
may just not be getting out enough, but I was really surprised by all this.
I know things work a little differently in resort markets, but are there a
lot of acts doing this sort of thing?

That's pretty funny. We have a band composed of just doctors in our
area. They are touted as the most over educated band in Iowa.

I'll bet they have the best drugs too.

agent86 wrote:

I can't remember what the second song was, but what I do remember was that
all of a sudden, they guy is playing lead against a sampled loop of his
rhythm part. Next song, he's singing three part harmony with himself. I
may just not be getting out enough, but I was really surprised by all this.
I know things work a little differently in resort markets, but are there a
lot of acts doing this sort of thing?

Yes, in the metro areas of our great nation there is plenty of that
action.

--
ha

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Iowa Recorder wrote:

That's pretty funny. We have a band composed of just doctors in our
area. They are touted as the most over educated band in Iowa.

If their music makes me sick, can they take my appendix out on stage?

When the doc with the Tele and the one with the trumpet go into unison,
you can receive an appendectomy even while sitting way back in the room.

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:


I can't remember what the second song was, but what I do remember was
that all of a sudden, they guy is playing lead against a sampled loop of
his
rhythm part. Next song, he's singing three part harmony with himself. I
may just not be getting out enough, but I was really surprised by all
this. I know things work a little differently in resort markets, but are
there a lot of acts doing this sort of thing?

Yes, in the metro areas of our great nation there is plenty of that
action.


In retrospect, I kind of wish I'd hung around & talked to him between sets.
I'd be interested in his opinions on whether he has actually been able to
book more (or higher paying) gigs because of all that stuff. As it
happened, we left, figuring whatever was on HBO would probably be more
entertaining.

I guess I was "taken by surprise" because I tend to think of live acoustic
music as a more grass roots kind of genre. (Although I realize some people
find it boring because it usually "doesn't sound like the record". I guess
the loops & samples get it a little closer for those folks.)

(Although I realize some people
find it boring because it usually "doesn't sound like the record". I guess
the loops & samples get it a little closer for those folks.)

Damien Rice does this live with his acoutic guitar and voice. It's amazing in
the moment,



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article writes:

all of a sudden, they guy is playing lead against a sampled loop of
his
rhythm part. Next song, he's singing three part harmony with himself.

In retrospect, I kind of wish I'd hung around & talked to him between sets.
I'd be interested in his opinions on whether he has actually been able to
book more (or higher paying) gigs because of all that stuff.

I doubt it. I'll bet the management doesn't even have any idea of what
he's doing. All they see is how much they pay him and how many drinks
people buy. You probably did your share.

I guess I was "taken by surprise" because I tend to think of live acoustic
music as a more grass roots kind of genre.

20 years ago, I defined "folk singer" as someone with a plugged-in
acoustic guitar singing songs he or another contemporary songwriter
wrote. The other day I heard an interview with Pete Seeger on an NPR
program and he said essentially the same thing.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

hank alrich wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Iowa Recorder wrote:

That's pretty funny. We have a band composed of just doctors in our
area. They are touted as the most over educated band in Iowa.

If their music makes me sick, can they take my appendix out on stage?

When the doc with the Tele and the one with the trumpet go into unison,
you can receive an appendectomy even while sitting way back in the room.

Ouch...

EggHd wrote:

(Although I realize some people
find it boring because it usually "doesn't sound like the record". I
guess
the loops & samples get it a little closer for those folks.)

Damien Rice does this live with his acoutic guitar and voice. It's amazing
in the moment,

I haven't heard Damien Rice, I'll be on t he look out for him. The guy I
heard was a good player & singer, & he was good enough with the technology
that the parts all fell into place in time, but somehow, it just didn't
sound convincingly "real" (even sitting with my back to the stage through
SRM 450s).

I do know a lot of electric guitarist do this sort of thig to very good
effect, but that's a different ball game.

In retrospect, I kind of wish I'd hung around & talked to him between
sets.
I'd be interested in his opinions on whether he has actually been able
to
book more (or higher paying) gigs because of all that stuff.

I doubt it. I'll bet the management doesn't even have any idea of what
he's doing. All they see is how much they pay him and how many drinks
people buy. You probably did your share.

Not so much worried about "doing my share". Just wanting to satisfy my
own curiosity.


I guess I was "taken by surprise" because I tend to think of live
acoustic music as a more grass roots kind of genre.

20 years ago, I defined "folk singer" as someone with a plugged-in
acoustic guitar singing songs he or another contemporary songwriter
wrote. The other day I heard an interview with Pete Seeger on an NPR
program and he said essentially the same thing.


It's wierd, ya know. as much as I admire Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan & Woody &
Arlo Guthrie (among many others), I've always cringed when the term "folk
singer was applied to my own music. I guess it's because a lot of people
expect any folk music to have a certain "Kum-ba-ya factor". I've come to
consider "Acoustic Music" to be a genre unto itself. The gig I have going
now is an acoustic duet. We have some originals, and the cover's we do
range from Doc Watson to the Stones to Gershwin to J.F. Wagner to Hendrix.
On all the covers, we try to interpret the SONG in it's best light
(considering our instrumentation), regardless of the genre of the original.
(screw what the record sounds like, IOW) Imagine if John Coltrane had
tried to make his version of "My Favorite Things" sound like Julie Andrews.

agent86 wrote in message . ..

On all the covers, we try to interpret the SONG in it's best light
(considering our instrumentation), regardless of the genre of the original.
(screw what the record sounds like, IOW) Imagine if John Coltrane had
tried to make his version of "My Favorite Things" sound like Julie Andrews.

I get really irritated when I go see some band that is obsessed on
doing everything like the record. Some of these bands won't even
change the key of the tune even when it's obvious the singer is
struggling. Even if the bands is really good I see these bands being
distracted and handicapped by this mentalitity. It gets to the point
that they sound so much like the record they might as well just play
CDs all night.

I think if a tune is well written you can play it in any fashion. The
song won't lose much of it's appeal unless your version of the song
sounds like a train wreck. A good song can stand on it's own without
alot of production.

There are a few tunes however I feel it would be a shame to not handle
with care. Versions that from radio play and extended hours of dorm
room listening get imprinted on most listeners. I'm always a bit
leary of doing Steely Dan covers. The reason I'm leary is I have
heard many bands do Steely Dan covers. Whether they do it exactly
like the record or have a clever way of covering it I always walk away
dissapointed. I'd rather just heard the origional recording.

Also I couldn't think of doing "Basket Case" by Green Day in any other
style. Again this is a song people are just too familiar with. It's
got alot of energy in the recording. We go playing it as a ballad,
someone is gonna go - wha? Don't they know the song? Sure you can
cover the tune on acoustic. I think part of the appeal however is in
the energy. So I probably wouldn't do this one fingerstyle. Unless I
like fingers bleeding.... hehehe

Those are just exceptions. For the most part I'd rather adapt songs
to fit our intrumentation and vocal range. It's alot more fun. It
gets the band into a more origional and creative mode. You can work
your vocals without having to effect you natural voice to sound like;
Garth Brooks, Willie Nelson, Steve Perry, Mick Jagger... ect... You
can create your own solos or even do some ambitious arrangements.

IR

In article ,
says...
agent86 wrote in message . ..

On all the covers, we try to interpret the SONG in it's best light
(considering our instrumentation), regardless of the genre of the original.
(screw what the record sounds like, IOW) Imagine if John Coltrane had
tried to make his version of "My Favorite Things" sound like Julie Andrews.

I get really irritated when I go see some band that is obsessed on
doing everything like the record. Some of these bands won't even
change the key of the tune even when it's obvious the singer is
struggling. Even if the bands is really good I see these bands being
distracted and handicapped by this mentalitity. It gets to the point
that they sound so much like the record they might as well just play
CDs all night.

I think if a tune is well written you can play it in any fashion. The
song won't lose much of it's appeal unless your version of the song
sounds like a train wreck. A good song can stand on it's own without
alot of production.

I used to be in a good cover band, one with a bit of a following.
Interestingly enough, most of the audience followed us because "you
guys sound just like the record" (which of course we didn't). But
all five of us sang, and could sing leads, and the lead vocalist was
female, so we simply assigned the lead vocal to whoever's style/range
it suited best. I think that, and the fact that we gave the audience
a very hi-fidelity sound (triamped mains with everyone run DI including
the drums), gave the *illusion* of being like the record.
Some people didn't care for a close replication, but most did. There
were a few songs we went WAY off the beaten path on, but most were
close. We stayed employed steady for ten years straight with VERY few
breaks, and after about two years, word-of-mouth kept us busy for the
rest of the decade.
The point I'm trying to make is that the reason you or I would go
see a band is not the same reason Average Joe Nonmusician goes, and
there are bands that service both ends of that spectrum.
---Michael (of Gambit)...

(Iowa Recorder) wrote

Also I couldn't think of doing "Basket Case" by Green Day in any other
style. Again this is a song people are just too familiar with. It's
got alot of energy in the recording. We go playing it as a ballad,
someone is gonna go - wha? Don't they know the song? Sure you can
cover the tune on acoustic. I think part of the appeal however is in
the energy. So I probably wouldn't do this one fingerstyle. Unless I
like fingers bleeding.... hehehe

You always know you've put on a good show if a little blood has
flowed.
I remeber during an early Chili Peppers show, Flea ripped open his
"picking thumb." But being so into the music, or the event, or
whatever, he just covered it with super glue and kept right on going.
Beautifull, really.

Michael wrote in message news:MPG.1aa55c1cea508efa9896ba@newshost...
In article ,
says...
agent86 wrote in message . ..


I think if a tune is well written you can play it in any fashion. The
song won't lose much of it's appeal unless your version of the song
sounds like a train wreck. A good song can stand on it's own without
alot of production.

I used to be in a good cover band, one with a bit of a following.
Interestingly enough, most of the audience followed us because "you
guys sound just like the record" (which of course we didn't).

When I was 19, yes I would go WOW you sound just like the record. It
was fairly tough in those days to have that kind of sound. So it was
novel to me.

But
all five of us sang, and could sing leads, and the lead vocalist was
female, so we simply assigned the lead vocal to whoever's style/range
it suited best. I think that, and the fact that we gave the audience
a very hi-fidelity sound (triamped mains with everyone run DI including
the drums), gave the *illusion* of being like the record.

Yes, the last couple decades with the technology and the DI setups I
hear more good cover bands sounding pretty much like the record. My
opinion is it's become a bit old. I don't see large followings for
these groups as I did back about 15 years ago. Of course I can't see
every band out there. So I'm sure there are bands out there like
yours that are doing well.

I mostly play duos and trios. Always everyone in these group sang
well but I usually short of some types of vocalists. So we'd change
the key and adapt. Right now there is quite a glut of good female
singers and good tenor males out there. Many bands just can't afford
the extra personel in todays sucky music climate. I wish I had the
server space to post some MP3s of some singers I've recorded and who I
would love to hire in my band. I just can't afford to hire them.

Some people didn't care for a close replication, but most did. There
were a few songs we went WAY off the beaten path on, but most were
close. We stayed employed steady for ten years straight with VERY few
breaks, and after about two years, word-of-mouth kept us busy for the
rest of the decade.

I haven't seen this around here. The best cover band I know of in
this area plays about 4 times a month. I go see them and I just shake
my head. There is nothing they do that makes me go... WOW!!! I don't
see any following at these gigs either. Also I see alot of cover
bands form up and break up after a year. Playing a 5 peice for 300$.
Spending lots of hard work busting ass setting up large PA systems.
All the damn rehearsing... It's alot of hard work for little return.
I don't see many of these bands last long.

This is just *MY* experiance however. I'm sure your experiance is
accurate. I haven't seen it around here....yet!

The point I'm trying to make is that the reason you or I would go
see a band is not the same reason Average Joe Nonmusician goes, and
there are bands that service both ends of that spectrum.

Well said.

IR

Lines: 47
Message-ID:
X-Trace: ldjgbllpbapjglppdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboeb jchgeneipcmeondekajmggfglicjiicephdelonkncmbkgdipo ccifmainhjgpginhkjnfhgmldbflobfegpniajdbdfegfecbbb folimgoilk
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:05:51 EST
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:05:51 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1042662


On 2004-02-20 said:
(EggHd) wrote:
Not that I've ever heard of anyone following the union rules...

Aight. AFTRA turns into a powerhouse and AFofM is weak. How the
heck did this
happen?
In the case of the AFofM, they harrassed high-school musicians to
the point of revolution. In the '60s, I was "leader" of a rock
band that joined the AFofM in order to play real gigs. Our local
was run by the brass-band-in-the-park-on-Sunday crowd who insisted
on union scale for school dances and parties and followed us around
to check. That served to engender a mistrust of the union
snip
What exactly was the union doing for us for that 2%? Had
the union been helpful and made allowances for student musicians, I
know my feelings would have been different.
I joined the AFM back when I was in high school also. that was the
heyday for live music where I grew up, there is no scene now there and
wasn't for much longer than a lot of places.

tHe AFM in my locale, local 646 in Southeastern IOwa had a program
where you could pay your annual and your work dues instead of the 4%
rate by just giving them $10 a year. FOr a road band who gigged in
the area a lot that option was still available.

wHat killed it for me was seeing guys with large dixieland bands etc.
going to these places and booking the job for under scale and then
bitching about it if others did it.

I did end up working some gigs where I got paid through the Musicians'
performance trust fund. That was one good program I saw that AFM
offered.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel, when it's not, isn't it?