I've been reading up on mastering a lot lately, very tech, very
electrical engineerish. My father is a electrical engineer, so maybe
this is why I am so interested. Anyway, I've heard tales upon tales
upon tales about the amazing equipment that mastering engineers use.
The thing that usualy stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?

Also, though I know this is not an easy question, what do you think is
the best place to learn about mastering? (Specific college?
Technical school? Following Bob Ludwig around for ten years?)

In article ,
(Ryan) wrote:

I've been reading up on mastering a lot lately, very tech, very
electrical engineerish. My father is a electrical engineer, so maybe
this is why I am so interested. Anyway, I've heard tales upon tales
upon tales about the amazing equipment that mastering engineers use.
The thing that usualy stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?


30 inch speaker as in 30 inch drivers? Quite rare and not all that
useful. Some typical mastering speakers come from Dunlavy (or Duntech
which were designed by Dunlavy), ATC, Quested, PMC, and B&W. Bob Ludwig
has Egglestons, and you'll also see other esoteric choices in some
mastering rooms. There certainly is some interesting, expensive, rare,
and even unique gear to be seen in mastering studios. You can check out
the websites for facilities like Sterling, Masterdisk, and Gateway to
see what the rooms and speakers look like. You can also check the thread
currently happening here in r.a.p. about audiophile vs. mastering
speakers and check the websites for some of the manufacturers mentioned.

To generalize more than perhaps is prudent, the entry level for passive
(non powered) monitors typical to mastering is usually around
$5,000/pair, with a not uncommon expenditure being $10,000/each. Add to
that some amps and possibly crossovers and subwoofers and it's not a
stretch to see $50,000 playing back a stereo source in the high end
mastering rooms. There are more than a couple of rooms that have spent
in excess of six figures for monitoring as well. However, a majority of
the bread and butter work (non-superstar pros working on regular
records) is done in rooms with $5-10k per pair monitors with a few
thousand more spent on amplification, and maybe a couple grand more for
a subwoofer.


Also, though I know this is not an easy question, what do you think is
the best place to learn about mastering? (Specific college?
Technical school? Following Bob Ludwig around for ten years?)


A foundation in a good school is an excellent place to begin, but school
is only intended to give you the audio foundation that you'll need to
grasp and appreciate the real learning that happens after graduation.
Especially in mastering, you should spend time as an apprentice under a
professional. It's a specialty that school will only touch upon, but
there you still learn the language of audio that you'll need to get
anything out of your internship/apprenticeship. After that, it's like
anything else: experience, practice, continue learning.

Some web resources to learn a bit more include the mastering webboard
(http://webbd.nls.net:8080/~mastering), ProSoundWeb's mastering section,
and certain websites from some mastering engineers or facilities (you
could start with my tech talk page).

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

"Ryan" wrote in message
om

The thing that usually stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?

The drivers in question would probably be ElectroVoice 30W speaker drivers.
There was also a Hartley 24" sub. These are speakers of the 1960's. I seem
to recall that some Japanese Manufacturer retreaded the idea in the late 80s
or early 90s.

They're all obsolete, hopefully replaced with good modern drivers that are
18" or smaller.

It turns out that the bass-generating power of a subwoofer depends primarily
on cone area and cone stroke, also called Xmax. Both the EV 30W and Harley
24 both obviously had cone area coming out of their ying-yangs, but where
you can't easily see it, they had miniscule Xmax. There are modern 6"
speakers that have far more cone travel!

In all seriousness, there are relatively inexpensive 12 inch speakers that
can move many, many times as much air as these old turkeys. And they'll do
it nicely in a far smaller box, and louder and cleaner.

Ryan wrote:
I've been reading up on mastering a lot lately, very tech, very
electrical engineerish. My father is a electrical engineer, so maybe
this is why I am so interested. Anyway, I've heard tales upon tales
upon tales about the amazing equipment that mastering engineers use.
The thing that usualy stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?

Which ones? No two mastering houses seem to use similar monitoring systems,
and in most cases either the room is built around standard speakers, or the
speakers are custom-built for the room.

I have seen everything from high end Infinity speakers, to the Wilson
Watt/Puppies, to the Griffin monitors that Francis Manzella sells, to
Legacy and Martin-Logan stuff. Most of them modified or custom voiced
for the room.

No more exotic than a lot of high-end home gear out there, though.

Also, though I know this is not an easy question, what do you think is
the best place to learn about mastering? (Specific college?
Technical school? Following Bob Ludwig around for ten years?)

Following Bob Ludwig around for ten years is how most folks get into
it, it seems.

The Dave Moulton ear training course is probably a good first step, though.
But an internship is pretty much essential, I think.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Arny Krueger wrote:

The drivers in question would probably be ElectroVoice 30W speaker drivers.
There was also a Hartley 24" sub. These are speakers of the 1960's. I seem
to recall that some Japanese Manufacturer retreaded the idea in the late 80s
or early 90s.

They're all obsolete, hopefully replaced with good modern drivers that are
18" or smaller.

Turbosound recently started using a 24" driver and still offers a 21" as
well. Haven't heard them but the construction quality on the 24 is
quite impressive.

In all seriousness, there are relatively inexpensive 12 inch speakers that
can move many, many times as much air as these old turkeys. And they'll do
it nicely in a far smaller box, and louder and cleaner.


And with better transient response & less cone breakup.


Scott Fraser

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

The drivers in question would probably be ElectroVoice 30W speaker
drivers. There was also a Hartley 24" sub. These are speakers of the
1960's. I seem to recall that some Japanese Manufacturer retreaded
the idea in the late 80s or early 90s.

They're all obsolete, hopefully replaced with good modern drivers
that are 18" or smaller.

Turbosound recently started using a 24" driver and still offers a 21"
as well. Haven't heard them but the construction quality on the 24 is
quite impressive.

http://www.turbosound.com/pdfs/tsw124.pdf seems to tell the story, and an
impressive story it is. It's a high-efficiency design with response and
acoustical power-handling capacity falling off below 50 Hz as opposed to
being a really stunning air-handler at 10 or 20 Hz.

The specs paint a picture of a device that is highly effective for an
intended purpose that is other than producing gobs of the lowest bass that
audio perfectionists are interested in. If I were trying for 120 dB at 10 Hz
at less than 10% THD, I'd pick other drivers.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Ryan" wrote in message
om

The thing that usually stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?

Fostex manufactures or at least recently manufactured a 30". It sounds
OK. Look for sound recording studio websites, several danish studios
have/had custom built systems utilizing these bass drivers in single or
dual configuration.

In all seriousness, there are relatively inexpensive 12 inch speakers that
can move many, many times as much air as these old turkeys. And they'll do
it nicely in a far smaller box, and louder and cleaner.

You haven't heard the Fostex's properly deployed ... but yes, box size
gets to be the issue. Fostex do seem almost to try to avoid exporting
some of their most interesting products, you have to navigate their
japanese website to find the fun stuff.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
"Ryan" wrote in message
om

The thing that usually stands out the most is the notion of these
gigantic, 30 inch speakers. What in the world are these things?
Brand name? Cost? Is it even true? If so, can somebody point me to
a place on the web with a few pics of these monsters?

The drivers in question would probably be ElectroVoice 30W speaker drivers.
There was also a Hartley 24" sub. These are speakers of the 1960's. I seem
to recall that some Japanese Manufacturer retreaded the idea in the late 80s
or early 90s.


Fostex, I believe. Puk Studios in Denmark has four 30" subwoofer as
part of their custom 4-way (5-way?)inwall monitoring system, & when
that room was built I seem to recall they mentioned Fostex as the
source for those drivers. Do a search for "Puk Studios, I'm sure
they've got a website with pictures.(IIRC they had a big Calrec
console & an EMT250 digital reverb too, so the whole place looked like
a multicolored ride at Disneyland.)

Buster Mudd wrote:

Fostex, I believe. Puk Studios in Denmark has four 30" subwoofer as
part of their custom 4-way (5-way?)inwall monitoring system, & when
that room was built I seem to recall they mentioned Fostex as the
source for those drivers.

Indeed. Ole Lund Christensen has done several custom installations on
that general theme.

Do a search for "Puk Studios, I'm sure
they've got a website with pictures.(IIRC they had a big Calrec
console & an EMT250 digital reverb too, so the whole place looked like
a multicolored ride at Disneyland.)

DR (Danish State Radio) has at least one pair of "small" 30" + 8" +
ribbon tweeter, probably also one of Ole's designs. I remember wanting
to tweak them a bit if they were mine, but that is a different tale ....
O;-) ... saw/heard them on a demonstration of their LAWO mixer set up
with the local AES chapter a couple of years ago.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
************************************************** ***********
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
************************************************** ***********

Thanks, guys, really. In this world of nano-second attention spans
and Me Me Me raging egos it's nice to find a place where people will
take the time to give full and expert anwsers to my questions. So
again, I say thanks.

I first heard about these 30 inch (the diamter of the cone, not the
driver)speakers at the dreaded Full Sail (known to my fellow graduates
as "Full Male" for its serious lack of the opposite sex). While I
majored in Digital Media (web design, CD-ROM design), the first three
months of school are the same for every student. We all attended the
beginning classes at the same time, and then went our seperate ways
after three months, so I managed to learn a good bit about the
recording world. One of the professors happened to mention this in a
lecture, just as a side note.

By the way, if anybody out there is thinking about going to Full
Sail--DON'T!! The powers that be there are no better than
telemarketers and infomercial specialists. They wow you with all the
equipment that they have, and trust me they do have probably about 70%
more than any other school. But they never really teach you a damn
thing usefull. Going to Full Sail to learn about recording is like
taking a tour of Martin Guitars to learn about writing a melody. You
learn a lot of specs about equipment, but not a thing about how to be
creative with them. Even though you most likly get more time on the
equipment than any place else, you never really learn what to do with
it. I remember a friend of mine in the recording arts program saying,
"Man, I came here to learn how to get Siamese Dream guitar tone,
instead all I've learned is never to go over 0 dB." You would be much
better off taking that thirty grand and buying some nice equipment to
teach yourself on. Then afterwards you'd have a lot more to show than
a piece of paper that looks like it was printed on a canon buble jet
(I'm talking about the diploma here, folks). Anyway, if there are any
Full Sail graduates or staff memebrs reading this, I mean no offense.
I actually did learn some things there, and there were actually a
couple of great professors; though inexplicably they seemed to be in
charge of the most un-important classes. I just simply get a bad
taste in my mouth from any institution that is obviously so singularly
concered with shoveling students (read: cash) in and out of their
porgams as quickly as possible that on several occasions we actually
reviewed for the finals just minutes before taking them.

Well enough of that ranting.

Jay atldigi wrote:

"A foundation in a good school is an excellent place to begin, but
school
is only intended to give you the audio foundation that you'll need to
grasp and appreciate the real learning that happens after graduation.
Especially in mastering, you should spend time as an apprentice under
a
professional. It's a specialty that school will only touch upon, but
there you still learn the language of audio that you'll need to get
anything out of your internship/apprenticeship."

Anybody know of any mastering engineers that are currently seeking an
apprentice? It seems to me that most people would view this as a
bother, an obstacle in the studio taking away from their time, not
something they would seek out.

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 06:54:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Ryan" wrote in message
. com

The drivers in question would probably be ElectroVoice 30W speaker drivers.


That behemots! Once at an electronics fair I've seen one at the floor
covered by an oversized acrylic disk; everybody thought that it was
kind of an advertising gag or so. I think they had to be cut at 110 Hz
upwards sharply.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:07:14 -0800, Ryan wrote
(in message ) :

Anybody know of any mastering engineers that are currently seeking an
apprentice? It seems to me that most people would view this as a
bother, an obstacle in the studio taking away from their time, not
something they would seek out.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------


I'd get hold of the last issue of MIX that listed all the big mastering
facilities in the U.S., and then start a letter-writing campaign.

Be sure to send the letter to a specific *person*, rather than just
"Personnel Department" or "Human Resources Dept." Be polite, don't oversell
yourself, and make it clear you're looking for an "entry-level position."
Having references helps, too.

Follow-up the letters with a phone call a week or two after the letter went
out. Don't call more than once a week, and try not to bug them.

Don't be surprised if they ignore you for awhile. It'll take persistance,
energy, and enthusiasm just to get your foot in the door. And you should
also be prepared to move to another city (like NY or LA) to get the job,
assuming they'll take you.

Finally, read this book:

Assistant Engineers Handbook
by Tim Crich
Black Ink Publishing
[ISBN #0969822308]

which you can get for about $30 from Music Books Plus or Amazon:

http://www.musicbooksplus.com/books/bl001.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...70674737/sr=1-
1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1542225-1091113?v=glance&s=books


A guy I know told me he learned more from this one book than two years in a
local LA recording school. While the book's advice pertains more to a
general recording school rather than a mastering studio, the concepts are
similar. Knowing when to keep your mouth shut is at or near the top of the
list!

Also, be sure you're totally up-to-speed on having great (not just good)
computer skills. Knowing basic computer maintenance, troubleshooting tricks,
and backup routines can be invaluable, particularly when you're trying to get
your foot in the door.


--MFW

In article ,
(Ryan) wrote:

Anybody know of any mastering engineers that are currently seeking an
apprentice? It seems to me that most people would view this as a
bother, an obstacle in the studio taking away from their time, not
something they would seek out.

You would probably start out as a QC guy (Quality Control), and the pay
is not great, but it is paid and it is a learning experience. You'd
basically listen down to masters and test them for errors before they go
to the plant. Then you'd get some observation time in the big room, and
if that went well, you'd get some training on the DAW. Eventually you'd
become a production engineer, doing edits and dequencing/assembly on
projects EQ'd by the mastering engineers. You do some more observation
and even assistingin the main room after that, and then usually you can
start experimenting at night on your own time. Next step you start doing
some singles attended by a mastering engineer and get training this way.
Then you start doing some indie gigs on your own, and if all goes well
with all these steps, you're finally handed a project on your own. Some
guys just stay production/editing engineers and make a career out of it
- kind of like a second in the Nashville scene or a recordist on a film
stage. Some guys are good at that, well paid, and don't feel it
necessary to move beyond.

Many mastering houses will have entry level opportunities like this
available, so try all the usual suspects. Unfortunately, there is a
limited supply of pro mastering houses as compared to studios, so the
places are limited. unpaid internships are also sometimes available like
in any other studio. Most mastering guys will train new engineers at
some point in their career, so it's not impossible to find this
situation. Some of the big guys out there today started under other big
guys who are still working.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

Ryan wrote:

I first heard about these 30 inch (the diamter of the cone, not the
driver)speakers at the dreaded Full Sail (known to my fellow graduates
as "Full Male" for its serious lack of the opposite sex). While I
majored in Digital Media (web design, CD-ROM design), the first three
months of school are the same for every student. We all attended the
beginning classes at the same time, and then went our seperate ways
after three months, so I managed to learn a good bit about the
recording world. One of the professors happened to mention this in a
lecture, just as a side note.

The amount of level that a driver can produce is a function of the amount
of air that it can move. This is function of the area of the driver and
the amount of displacement of the driver (the Xmax).

A 15" driver can move about twice the air of a 12" driver with the same
Xmax (since 15^2 is about twice 12^2).

So, you can get a big driver, or you can get a driver with a very long
displacement. The Carver boxes manage to get a lot of low end out of
a small driver, since it operates like a deep piston over a very wide
range.

BUT, how low the driver will work depends on the resonant frequency of
the driver, or Fs. Speakers aren't really of much use too far below
the Fs, even with cabinet trickery. If you actually look at the numbers,
you'll find most pro audio drivers tend to be big and move a lot of air
but don't actually go very low. On the other hand, NHT makes a subwoofer
driver that is only 10" but has a 16 Hz Fs.... doesn't get very loud, but
it gets very, very deep and accurate.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 5 Dec 2003 23:22:18 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

-------------------x-------------
BUT, how low the driver will work depends on the resonant frequency of
the driver, or Fs. Speakers aren't really of much use too far below
the Fs, even with cabinet trickery. If you actually look at the numbers,
you'll find most pro audio drivers tend to be big and move a lot of air
but don't actually go very low. On the other hand, NHT makes a subwoofer
driver that is only 10" but has a 16 Hz Fs.... doesn't get very loud, but
it gets very, very deep and accurate.
--scott

-- But there are various servo-assisted solutions... it's like
"Vari-Fs". Philips called it MFB, "Motional Feedback" long time ago.
There, usualy capacitive sensors or accelerometers are taking the
excursion value to a servo amplifier which in turn applies a
proportional counter-power to the driver like a corrective signal.
This works quite good sometimes; I have relatively small enclosures
but they have servo-assisted bass drivers with photo-electric sensors.
While they are quite long-throw, they do have power limits at the
lowest frequencies; I wouldn't let them go into a club. But they tell
me lot about low life; I can practically see leakages, foot-tapping,
rumble, even phono arm resonances sometimes.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

how does one pursue apprenticing under a mastering engineer? i live
in the nyc area; i'd love to be able to help out and learn (observe)
on the weekends. even just being around a killer rig with some
consistancy would be educational.


Especially in mastering, you should spend time as an apprentice under a
professional. It's a specialty that school will only touch upon, but
there you still learn the language of audio that you'll need to get
anything out of your internship/apprenticeship. After that, it's like
anything else: experience, practice, continue learning.

Some web resources to learn a bit more include the mastering webboard
(http://webbd.nls.net:8080/~mastering), ProSoundWeb's mastering section,
and certain websites from some mastering engineers or facilities (you
could start with my tech talk page).

In article writes:

how does one pursue apprenticing under a mastering engineer? i live
in the nyc area; i'd love to be able to help out and learn (observe)
on the weekends.

The first thing you need to do is become more committed. Quit your day
job or rearrange your class schedule so that you can be available
other than on weekends. Any mastering facility that works on weekends
is probably so busy that they can't afford to have someone hanging
around who isn't contributing to the work flow.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

we'll, maybe they could save up some crappy admin work for the
weekends and off-load it to me. stuff like typing/sticking mailing
labels for client Christmas cards, backing up computer files, ordering
printer cartridges. unless they have a dedicated secretary to do all
this, this stuff must eat into their time. plus i could do stuff like
upgrade computers and make cd copies of stuff, maybe set up some
redbook codings. to be a helpful behind-the-scenes, fly-on-the-wall
person and just pick up on things a little at a time.

i could do this role for free, or for very cheap (i'd actually like to
be reimbursed for parking/gas/tolls, but that's about it). that could
be useful to someone. less pressure for everyone involved too, since
the place wouldn't have to worry about paying me a living wage.

(Ryan) wrote in message . com...

I first heard about these 30 inch (the diamter of the cone, not the
driver)speakers at the dreaded Full Sail

Wow, they're really splitting hairs over at Full Sail. Just how big
did they say the diameter of a driver with a 30" diameter cone was
exactly?

That, along with many other things, was never mentioned.


(Buster Mudd) wrote in message . com...
(Ryan) wrote in message . com...

I first heard about these 30 inch (the diamter of the cone, not the
driver)speakers at the dreaded Full Sail

Wow, they're really splitting hairs over at Full Sail. Just how big
did they say the diameter of a driver with a 30" diameter cone was
exactly?