Is it true that running an amp at 2 ohms will have lower stereo
separation, damping factor, and S/N ratio? Relative to a 4 ohm load?

Thanks,
Garrett

not enough diffrence to notice

Sanitarium wrote:

Is it true that running an amp at 2 ohms will have lower stereo
separation, damping factor, and S/N ratio? Relative to a 4 ohm load?

Thanks,
Garrett

Even if the effects aren't audible, you may be causing damage to your
amp. Depends on the build quality. It seems to me, especially for
anything but subs, that running any amp into 2 ohms as opposed to 4,
will produce a difference in output at the speaker that is almost
inaudible. Even if you double the amp's output(doubtful), how many db
can you gain? Enough to notice? It takes something in the neighborhood
of 10 times the output to increase 10db, so it's doubtful it's
noticeable to run 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms. Why not just buy quality amps and
set gains properly for a nice system balance into 4 ohms? I think this
whole 2 ohm debate for the average amp is overrated.
--
69CamaroSS396
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over half a million post online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=149145

Even if you double the amp's output(doubtful), how many db
can you gain? Enough to notice?

Yes.

It takes something in the neighborhood
of 10 times the output to increase 10db, so it's doubtful it's
noticeable to run 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms.

Have you tried it?

Why not just buy quality amps and
set gains properly for a nice system balance into 4 ohms? I think this
whole 2 ohm debate for the average amp is overrated.

Because a lot of people are on tight budgets.

Mark!
Think about this a bit...
Most folks would probably NOT notice a difference...!!

Wrong.

ONLY at MAX volume would it be possible to notice a difference,

That's a noticable difference.

under
normal listening levels

What's "normal"?

most music would not reach MAX so having a slightly
higher cabability would never be realized...

It is realized about 95% of the time.

Even at MAX doubleing power
is so small a change most folks wouldnt know it ....

Most folks would. Sorry.

* Even if you double the amp's output(doubtful), how many db
can you gain? Enough to notice?

Yes.
OK, if you say so.

You don't have to take my word for it. In fact, I'm glad you didn't. Just
try it. Or if you want a "scientific" explanation, consult some papers on
psychophysical thresholds as they pertain to this subject. I'll be more
than happy to help if you're interested.


It takes something in the neighborhood
of 10 times the output to increase 10db, so it's doubtful it's
noticeable to run 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms.

Have you tried it?
I've been at this for over 30 years. I've tried a little of
everything.

Under what conditions did you try it yet not notice a difference?

Why not just buy quality amps and
set gains properly for a nice system balance into 4 ohms? I think
this
whole 2 ohm debate for the average amp is overrated.

Because a lot of people are on tight budgets.
You gotta pay to play.

Not necessarily. My system is proof enough.

And good amps aren't that expensive. One can
get a truly good amp for $400.

One can get a truly good amp for $200. But the point is that there are TONS
of people out there that don't have $200 to spend on a car audio amplifier.
Budgets can be tight.

If that's out of the realm of
possiblity, then maybe this hobby isn't for some people.

Then maybe you shouldn't look at it as a "hobby". It's only a hobby for
people who have money to blow, and I think they've got issues anyway.

I wish
everyone could afford whatever they want, but it doesn't work that
way. I'd like to have a $650,000 Ferrari, but it's not likely to
happen. That's the breaks. But it's an unfair expectation of some of
us to try to make an amp perform in a way it's not designed for, even
if it's capable of it for a time.

That's quite a stretch. You're saying that people who don't have megabucks
to spend on car audio shouldn't get anything, and they shouldn't run their
amps at 2 ohm either. Instead they should opt for their stock system.
That's a load of crap. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with
running a 2 ohm stable amp at 2 ohms. It's absurd to imply that it's an
"unfair expectation" and that 2 ohm stable amps aren't "designed for"
running at 2 ohms.

Mark,
I (like most folks I suspect) use an amplifier...
If someone was to quickly exchange that amplifier (so quick
it didnt cut off) with a zillion watt amplifer I dont think it would
sound
any different..... In fact, unless I started abusing my volume
control I would never even notice it.... What makes you think
it would sound different????

........
Eddie

Mark Zarella wrote:

Mark!
Think about this a bit...
Most folks would probably NOT notice a difference...!!

Wrong.

ONLY at MAX volume would it be possible to notice a difference,

That's a noticable difference.

under
normal listening levels

What's "normal"?

most music would not reach MAX so having a slightly
higher cabability would never be realized...

It is realized about 95% of the time.

Even at MAX doubleing power
is so small a change most folks wouldnt know it ....

Most folks would. Sorry.

Mark,
I (like most folks I suspect) use an amplifier...
If someone was to quickly exchange that amplifier (so quick
it didnt cut off) with a zillion watt amplifer I dont think it would
sound
any different.....

It would if you were trying to deliver more power to your speakers than the
original amplifier could deliver at a given level of distortion.

Of course it was.


"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
that wasnt the original intent of the message Mark

Mark Zarella wrote:

Mark,
I (like most folks I suspect) use an amplifier...
If someone was to quickly exchange that amplifier (so quick
it didnt cut off) with a zillion watt amplifer I dont think it would
sound
any different.....

It would if you were trying to deliver more power to your speakers than
the
original amplifier could deliver at a given level of distortion.

Mark, I bow to you. Anyone who can use the word psychophysical and
offer me scientific explanations as to why I'm wrong is in another
stratosphere. I'm not worthy to debate you. I give. The information that
I offered is blasphemy. Everyone read it at your own risk. BTW, what is
your definition of "hobby"?

P.S. Not every tweak(and 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms is an attempt to tweak) is an
improvement, and I clearly stated that build quality is a huge factor.
If you don't agree or it doesn't apply to your set-up, wonderful. But I
think there are some knowledgeable people(maybe even some who are
familiar with psychostuff) who will agree. Have a nice day.
--
69CamaroSS396
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over half a million post online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=149145

Mark, I bow to you. Anyone who can use the word psychophysical and
offer me scientific explanations as to why I'm wrong is in another
stratosphere.

It's not a tough word. Sound it out.

I'm not worthy to debate you. I give. The information that
I offered is blasphemy. Everyone read it at your own risk. BTW, what is
your definition of "hobby"?

I think music is a hobby. Installing sound systems is work. I also don't
consider mowing your lawn a hobby either.


P.S. Not every tweak(and 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms is an attempt to tweak) is an
improvement, and I clearly stated that build quality is a huge factor.

The assumption in this conversation was that the amplifier was capable of
actually running at 2 ohms. Otherwise, the point is moot.

If you don't agree or it doesn't apply to your set-up, wonderful. But I
think there are some knowledgeable people(maybe even some who are
familiar with psychostuff) who will agree. Have a nice day.

What I said is not opinion, it's FACT. That is, it can be demonstrated
through the use of laws of physics and known psychophysical parameters (I
know you cringe at the word - I apologize for not having a better one
handy). It can also be verified experimentally quite easily. If you don't
want to believe that it's true, then suit yourself. If instead you'd like
to have an open mind, then you only need to ask and I'll provide the
appropriate references (and if I have them handy, I can email pdfs to you).

Mark, If you are hung up on proving that you're right and I'm wrong,
don't waste your time. And set your mind at ease, I haven't cringed at
anything you've written. If you happen to be of the belief that an
average amp is working at it's optimum in every way into 2 ohms, and not
degrading the sound in any way, and at the same time not running hotter
and suffering any long term effects, audible or not, fine. But I'm
hoping young guys who may be just starting in this hobby(work?), and may
have these average amps of the world, will realize that SOME
recommendations, such as this debate, are overrated because they are
often nothing but an ego boost. As in, "I'm running my speakers in
parallel. It's pouring out 100 watts per instead of 50. The differences
I can hear are staggering." That's not true, although some have been led
to believe it. If a system sounds great with a 2 ohm set-up, then it
will sound better into 4. It's a beneficial move. In spite of what some
say, if the system is tuned properly, 2 ohms is unnecessary. And if you
have an amp that won't play loud enough and clean enough onto 4 ohms,
then it's inferior in some way and certainly won't benefit from running
into 2.
--
69CamaroSS396
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over half a million post online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=149145

Mark, If you are hung up on proving that you're right and I'm wrong,
don't waste your time.

I don't plan on it. I was offering to you literature free of charge
preventing you from having to track it down in a library.

And set your mind at ease, I haven't cringed at
anything you've written. If you happen to be of the belief that an
average amp is working at it's optimum in every way into 2 ohms, and not
degrading the sound in any way, and at the same time not running hotter
and suffering any long term effects, audible or not, fine.

When did I say all that?

But I'm
hoping young guys who may be just starting in this hobby(work?), and may
have these average amps of the world, will realize that SOME
recommendations, such as this debate, are overrated because they are
often nothing but an ego boost. As in, "I'm running my speakers in
parallel. It's pouring out 100 watts per instead of 50. The differences
I can hear are staggering." That's not true, although some have been led
to believe it.

Not by me...

If a system sounds great with a 2 ohm set-up, then it
will sound better into 4.

No it won't. The ONLY difference is the decrease in power when running 4
ohms. That means it will sound WORSE running 4 ohms than 2, because most
everybody drives their amplifiers into clipping at some point. It will
occur less frequently at 2 ohms. There are ZERO other sonic differences.
I'd love to hear from you exactly what you think degrades sound quality.

It's a beneficial move. In spite of what some
say, if the system is tuned properly, 2 ohms is unnecessary.

Tuning doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. If you've got a 50
watt amp, no amount of tuning will allow you to reach 90 watts.

And if you
have an amp that won't play loud enough and clean enough onto 4 ohms,
then it's inferior in some way and certainly won't benefit from running
into 2.

Or it's just too small for your needs. As I've said repeatedly, but which
you mustn't understand having obviously never been on a tight budget in your
life, not everyone can afford the amount of power necessary to listen to
music at a given volume level without clipping. Running at 2 ohms simply
helps to prevent clipping by increasing power output. The result: improved
sound at the volume levels that require it.

Mark, I've been on a tight budget all my life. I'm what you would call
your average, middle class factory worker. What you gathered, from any
statements I made, that would suggest I've never been on a tight budget,
are figments of your imagination.
As to the debate, your statement that refutes my comment that a system
that sounds great into 2 ohms will sound better into 4, tells me all I
need to know about your expertise. With all other things remaining the
same, to say that the system will actually sound better into 2 ohms as
opposed to 4, is absurd, not to mention misleading. I am of the
impression that you mistake sonic clarity and loudness for being one and
the same, and they certainly are not. Some of the highest scoring SQ
systems are very, very low powered, and not necessarily loud, in
comparison to SPL systems. So, I suppose you could say that if a person
is not particularly concerned about SQ and aims for SPL, then difficult
loads for an amp is the way to go.
--
69CamaroSS396
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over half a million post online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=149145

Mark, I've been on a tight budget all my life. I'm what you would call
your average, middle class factory worker. What you gathered, from any
statements I made, that would suggest I've never been on a tight budget,
are figments of your imagination.

I thought it was a good inference based on your insistence that nobody
should buy small amps even though that's all they can afford. Evidently, my
inference was wrong.

As to the debate, your statement that refutes my comment that a system
that sounds great into 2 ohms will sound better into 4, tells me all I
need to know about your expertise. With all other things remaining the
same, to say that the system will actually sound better into 2 ohms as
opposed to 4, is absurd, not to mention misleading.

I'm still waiting for your explanation. I provided mine. I'll repeat it if
you missed it the first time: more power means the likelihood of clipping is
decreased. Clipping is essentially the only audible form of distortion that
can be introduced by the amplifier. Reducing the likelihood of clipping,
therefore, will improve sound. However, as I've already stated, there will
be no upgrade or downgrade between 2 and 4 ohms if the user is NOT driving
the amplifier beyond its linear operating range. This is usually not the
case, though, which may come as a suprise to someone like yourself. Since
the crest factor of "typical" music is often upwards of 20 dB, a few simple
calculations will demonstrate that clipping can and does occur at even
relatively moderate volumes. For instance, if we assume a crest factor of
20 dB (often accepted universally as a good estimate of "typical" music),
then a 50 watt amplifier will begin to clip the transients as the average
power exceeds 5 watts. Send me a song you like. I'll determine the crest
factor of it for you.

I am of the
impression that you mistake sonic clarity and loudness for being one and
the same, and they certainly are not.

I agree that they're not the same. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Loudness and output power aren't even the same, though they're often (but
not always) related, so I'm not sure why you bring loudness into the
discussion. But I'm glad you did, because it gives me the opportunity to
point out to you that the quest to achieve a certain loudness (whatever your
loudness tastes are, you name it) requires a certain amount of power if the
goal is to prevent the amplifier from behaving nonlinearly. I suspect that
this amount of power is larger than you think it is.

Some of the highest scoring SQ
systems are very, very low powered, and not necessarily loud, in
comparison to SPL systems.

I don't "score" systems, nor do I pay attention to scoring. I can't quite
figure out how this has evolved into a sport, but hey, more power to you, no
pun intended.

So, I suppose you could say that if a person
is not particularly concerned about SQ and aims for SPL, then difficult
loads for an amp is the way to go.

My assertion, however, is that if a person wishes to minimize distortion,
then 9 times out of ten this can be achieved by running at 2 ohms rather
than 4 ohms. And zero times out of ten is the other way around true.

Ugh, lets not talk about "highest scoring SQ cars". High scores in RTA
usually means that the car sounds like ass.....