[Gary Eickmeier]

My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some misconceptions in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some misconceptions in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.

[Sean Conolly]

"Ralph Barone" wrote in message
news:1784830207369723936.414576address_is-invalid.invalid@shawnews...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different
audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with
some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many
avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some misconceptions
in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and
beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a
misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.

+1!

Sean

[Trevor]

"Ralph Barone" wrote in message
news:1784830207369723936.414576address_is-invalid.invalid@shawnews...
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different
audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with
some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many
avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some misconceptions
in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and
beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a
misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up the
respect tree.

Or something like that.


Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.


Simply replace with "people." regardless of topic, and you're right, no need
to go any further.

Trevor.

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Ralph Barone wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some misconceptions in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.

There are some Usenet groups where the members are generally more
co-operative and 'spats' are less common (uk.comp.sys.mac). I am trying
to think of reasons why there are these differences between groups, but
there doesn't seem to be any clear answer.

Some possible factors:

1) Questioners who are grateful for advice rather than seeking
confirmation of shakily-held beliefs.

2) Contributors who, whilst being undoubted experts in some fields,
openly question their own answers and understanding of the subject in
areas where they are unsure.

3) A style of answering which 'suggests' rather then 'asserts'.

4) A feeling that the group is jointly trying to solve someone's
problem.

5) Correct use and understanding of English, particularly grammar, so
that misunderstandings are less likely to arise. (This is much more
difficult with a multi-cultural or international groups, where somone
may appear to be asking a stupid question or giving an inappropriate
reply simply because they do not have a good grasp of the language.)

6) A pair or small clique of squabblers who delight in escalating any
disagreement can give a bad impression of a group as a whole. They may
think of this as harmless fun but, in the long term, this behaviour can
drive away those who for whom the group really exists.

7) A 'father figure', for whom the group has great respect, can help to
pull a group together and minimise disagreements.

8) Quiet disapproval of displays of aggression (the effect of this is
much stronger in some cultures than in others).


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Gary Eickmeier]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
valid.invalid...
Ralph Barone wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated into
a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the
most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different
audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate
into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with
some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many
avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some
misconceptions in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and
beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a
misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up
the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.

There are some Usenet groups where the members are generally more
co-operative and 'spats' are less common (uk.comp.sys.mac). I am trying
to think of reasons why there are these differences between groups, but
there doesn't seem to be any clear answer.

Some possible factors:

1) Questioners who are grateful for advice rather than seeking
confirmation of shakily-held beliefs.

2) Contributors who, whilst being undoubted experts in some fields,
openly question their own answers and understanding of the subject in
areas where they are unsure.

3) A style of answering which 'suggests' rather then 'asserts'.

4) A feeling that the group is jointly trying to solve someone's
problem.

5) Correct use and understanding of English, particularly grammar, so
that misunderstandings are less likely to arise. (This is much more
difficult with a multi-cultural or international groups, where somone
may appear to be asking a stupid question or giving an inappropriate
reply simply because they do not have a good grasp of the language.)

6) A pair or small clique of squabblers who delight in escalating any
disagreement can give a bad impression of a group as a whole. They may
think of this as harmless fun but, in the long term, this behaviour can
drive away those who for whom the group really exists.

7) A 'father figure', for whom the group has great respect, can help to
pull a group together and minimise disagreements.

8) Quiet disapproval of displays of aggression (the effect of this is
much stronger in some cultures than in others).

An interesting contrast I just thought of is RAHE vs RAO. RAHE is moderated
by adults, and flaming is kept to a minimum, even though it takes so long to
get your post in and difficult to carry an idea through to completion if you
get cut out for a day or two. That is one extreme. The other extreme is RAO,
which has deteriorated into a totally useless name calling melee. It is so
bad that there are just a few individuals who hold sway and have pet names
for the others. They get so off topic that there is no topic and there is no
audio discussion. Usenet at its worst.

I think Pro is a fairly respectable neutral zone that can be used when you
don't feel like waiting for a moderator to make a judgement on you and
chance getting rejected. But within that context, I just notice that we have
a problem with seemingly contrasting ideas or opinions, and this is not the
only place I have encountered this.

Maybe it is like asking two designers to agree on a room, a home, or an
automobile. A major part of my quest in audio is trying to come up with some
standards that we could all agree on so that we aren't continually
reinventing the wheel every time we make a recording or install a system in
someone's home. Audio shouldn't be a TOTALLY creative craft - since we are
simply trying to reproduce something in another form, there should be some
standards we can use for comparison besides our subjective opinions and
extremely fine taste in sound. But try to get two audio engineers or writers
to agree on anything, and you've got trouble.

Why is that?

Gary Eickmeier

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Wed 2012-Sep-19 08:08, Gary Eickmeier writes:
major snippage
An interesting contrast I just thought of is RAHE vs RAO. RAHE is
moderated by adults, and flaming is kept to a minimum, even though
snip
Maybe it is like asking two designers to agree on a room, a home, or
an automobile. A major part of my quest in audio is trying to come
up with some standards that we could all agree on so that we aren't
continually reinventing the wheel every time we make a recording or
install a system in someone's home. Audio shouldn't be a TOTALLY
creative craft - since we are simply trying to reproduce something
in another form, there should be some standards we can use for
comparison besides our subjective opinions and extremely fine taste
in sound. But try to get two audio engineers or writers to agree on
anything, and you've got trouble.


Part of the "trouble" is that those of us on the artistic
end, where the audio the consumer hears is created and
manipulated is that we can't find a common denominator on
the consumer end. Grandma listens on a boombox on a shelf.
Dad listens on an old Fisher stereo in the garage while
tinkering, or in his work truck while doing his day job.
Junior listens on earbuds. SAme is true if I'm doing the
audio for a commercial.

The only standard I can work to for the consumer is that it doesn't sound awful on any of them. Tailoring the product
to the end user doesn't work, unless marketing is willing to tailor one product for the mp3 crowd, another for the high
end listeners, another for the cheap tv set on the cabinet
crowd, etc. etc. That's why I don't bother with the 'high
end' community or rahe. MOst Joe and Jane sixpacks out
there give no thought at all to their listening environment, plunk down their box they bought at Walmart somewhere, plug
it in, turn it on, play the content they choose.

Look at all the complaints we hear about television audio.
I don't listen on a good "home theater" system when I'm
around the cultural wasteland which is television. I'm in a friggin motel room listening on a cheesy sounding box with a speaker that was an afterthought at best, a big box which
has all sorts of funny resonances so as to accomodate the
picture tube, etc. YOu'd be amazed at how much product I
hear coming out of those things which sounds like utter
****.

YEt it's that guy listening on that motel television or that cheesy box he bought at Walmart I have to consider, after
all, my clients/customers want to sell to him, because
that's where the big bucks are. As Mike Rivers said
earlier, I want the end user to enjoy the product enough
that he/she will consider listening more than once, maybe on a different playback system, possibly at a different
listening level, etc. iF he'll consider listening more than once, he's a 'customer" who plunked down money. IF he
plunked down money, my customers will create more content,
and bring me more work.

I'd absolutely love it if I could think about customers with properly configured home theaters and listening rooms, after all, I take my music listening very seriously, and even when just listening to news or a baseball game want certain things from the adisappointed. But, i know that's not where the end user of
product I work on is. I have to think instead about
compromises. Can JOe SIxpack hear the announcer over the
crowd at the baseball game we're broadcasting? Does the
song I'm mixing sound alright when played back on Grandma's
boombox on the shelf, junior's earbuds and dad's stereo in
the shop? Does it sound alright when Fred drives down the
road listening on the 6 by 9 coaxials in the doors of his
pickup truck? The same product might get played back
ultimately in any or all of these environments, and that's
what I gotta go with.

Remember, multiple speaker systems to JOe and Jane sixpack
just means one speaker for every room in the trailer.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Steve King]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
valid.invalid...
Ralph Barone wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long
time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

An innocent question about standardizing audio levels deteriorated
into a
fistfight about dynamic range, color temperature, and who knows the
most
about any of it.

At first I thought the problem was just me and my somewhat different
audio
theories. But I quickly realized that we all eventually deteriorate
into
bickering and blustering against wach other, rather than agreeing with
some
points, disagreeing with others, and conversing about it.

I'm thinking that each of us simply MUST be thought of as some sort od
"expert" in audio, but it is such a far ranging field with so many
avenues
of study that none of us can know it all, so we have some
misconceptions in
some areas that we don't want revealed too brutally, so we bluster and
beg
for our share of respect. IOW, we MUST NOT be corrected on a
misconception,
so we revert to name calling and attempt in some way to climb back up
the
respect tree.

Or something like that.

Gary Eickmeier

Replace "audio people" with "people on Usenet", and I might consider
partially agreeing with you.

There are some Usenet groups where the members are generally more
co-operative and 'spats' are less common (uk.comp.sys.mac). I am trying
to think of reasons why there are these differences between groups, but
there doesn't seem to be any clear answer.

Some possible factors:

1) Questioners who are grateful for advice rather than seeking
confirmation of shakily-held beliefs.

2) Contributors who, whilst being undoubted experts in some fields,
openly question their own answers and understanding of the subject in
areas where they are unsure.

3) A style of answering which 'suggests' rather then 'asserts'.

4) A feeling that the group is jointly trying to solve someone's
problem.

5) Correct use and understanding of English, particularly grammar, so
that misunderstandings are less likely to arise. (This is much more
difficult with a multi-cultural or international groups, where somone
may appear to be asking a stupid question or giving an inappropriate
reply simply because they do not have a good grasp of the language.)

6) A pair or small clique of squabblers who delight in escalating any
disagreement can give a bad impression of a group as a whole. They may
think of this as harmless fun but, in the long term, this behaviour can
drive away those who for whom the group really exists.

7) A 'father figure', for whom the group has great respect, can help to
pull a group together and minimise disagreements.

8) Quiet disapproval of displays of aggression (the effect of this is
much stronger in some cultures than in others).

An interesting contrast I just thought of is RAHE vs RAO. RAHE is
moderated by adults, and flaming is kept to a minimum, even though it
takes so long to get your post in and difficult to carry an idea through
to completion if you get cut out for a day or two. That is one extreme.
The other extreme is RAO, which has deteriorated into a totally useless
name calling melee. It is so bad that there are just a few individuals who
hold sway and have pet names for the others. They get so off topic that
there is no topic and there is no audio discussion. Usenet at its worst.

I think Pro is a fairly respectable neutral zone that can be used when you
don't feel like waiting for a moderator to make a judgement on you and
chance getting rejected. But within that context, I just notice that we
have a problem with seemingly contrasting ideas or opinions, and this is
not the only place I have encountered this.

Maybe it is like asking two designers to agree on a room, a home, or an
automobile. A major part of my quest in audio is trying to come up with
some standards that we could all agree on so that we aren't continually
reinventing the wheel every time we make a recording or install a system
in someone's home. Audio shouldn't be a TOTALLY creative craft - since we
are simply trying to reproduce something in another form, there should be
some standards we can use for comparison besides our subjective opinions
and extremely fine taste in sound. But try to get two audio engineers or
writers to agree on anything, and you've got trouble.

Why is that?

Gary Eickmeier

RAP has always been a very useful group for me, very thought provoking
sometimes, entertaining, too. We've had contributors from time to time who
love an argument more than a discussion. That causes problems. Often lack
of understanding of the terms we use gets in the way of communication. I
think that was at the heart of the early disagreements in the "Loudness
Control" thread. Scott always has a way of staying above the silliness that
I admire, a prodigeous memory, and a truly expansive knowlege base. Mike,
too. Ty Ford is another. I love when John Hardy pops in. These and others
I've forgot are the guys who make all the disagreeably aggressive
contributors worth wading through. You find a few PIA people in every
gathering. Can't be helped. Sometimes that'd be me, I suppose. I'll be
better, when I grow up. Maybe.

Steve King

[William Sommerwerck]

"Steve King"
wrote in message ...

RAP has always been a very useful group for me, very thought provoking
sometimes, entertaining, too. We've had contributors from time to time
who
love an argument more than a discussion. That causes problems. Often
lack
of understanding of the terms we use gets in the way of communication. I
think that was at the heart of the early disagreements in the "Loudness
Control" thread. Scott always has a way of staying above the silliness
that
I admire, a prodigous memory, and a truly expansive knowlege base. Mike,
too. Ty Ford is another. I love when John Hardy pops in. These and others
I've forgot are the guys who make all the disagreeably aggressive
contributors worth wading through. You find a few PIA people in every
gathering. Can't be helped. Sometimes that'd be me, I suppose. I'll be
better, when I grow up. Maybe.

I'm am tempted to apologize for my occasionally poor behavior. But I don't
tolerate fools gladly (and, sometimes, I'm one of them).

Like you, Steve, I want to "grow up", but my resolutions to stay "above the
fray" rarely last more than a week.

[Trevor]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
An interesting contrast I just thought of is RAHE vs RAO. RAHE is
moderated and ...

.... opinions that differ from the moderators are not allowed.
Is that what you want for r.a.p ?

Trevor.

[Steve King]

"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news
An interesting contrast I just thought of is RAHE vs RAO. RAHE is
moderated and ...

... opinions that differ from the moderators are not allowed.
Is that what you want for r.a.p ?

Trevor.

Often, contentious threads develop on RAP, because what the poster considers
a matter of opinion is considered by (usually) more experienced participants
as a matter of established standards, accepted definitions of terms, or as
something that cannot be discussed in isolation. Imprecision of language or
a lack of context also gets posters in trouble here. (The thread on a
'standard' for playback volume being an example.) After all, we're often
talking about very technical issues. Being called on a wrong understanding
of an accepted term that has a precise definition sometimes gets a poster's
shorts all in a knot. I see far more disrespect coming from the least
experienced, least knowlegable of our posters than I do from the posters
with the deepest education and experience. I get that people don't like to
hear that their ideas are foolish or ill-informed. But, some ideas *are*
foolish. I think RAP is actually more gentle in dealing with this than many
other forums. For example, opinions on matters of taste are very well
tolerated IMO.

Steve King

[geoff]

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

Yes we can idiot. Now go F#&% yourself !

;-)

geoff

[geoff]

"geoff" wrote in message
...

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...
My previous thread exemplifies something I have noticed for a long time
about audio people - they just cannot get along with each other.

Yes we can idiot. Now go F#&% yourself !

;-)


Actually, you (we) are lucky Phil Allison doesn't frequent this list. He
really is incredibly unpleasant.

geoff

[Trevor]

"geoff" wrote in message
...


Actually, you (we) are lucky Phil Allison doesn't frequent this list. He
really is incredibly unpleasant.

Only for those who don't know how to use a kill file. I think the idea was
originally invented for him! :-)

Trevor.

[[email protected]]

Gerry E:

I attempted to bring light to this very same problem he https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!search/egos$20on$20this$20board/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/_owtA6XNwlI

Egos are a part of being human - and just something we're going to have to work around.

[Gary Eickmeier]

wrote in message
...
Gerry E:

I attempted to bring light to this very same problem he
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!search/egos$20on$20this$20board/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/_owtA6XNwlI

Egos are a part of being human - and just something we're going to have to
work around.

My ego tells me to correct your spelling of my name... and your link didn't
work on my computer. But I get the idea. You tried to bring the subject up
before, but eveyone disagreed with your foolish post...

Gary Eickmeier

[[email protected]]

Gary E:
"
wrote in message
...
- show quoted text -
My ego tells me to correct your spelling of my name... and your link didn't
work on my computer. But I get the idea. You tried to bring the subject up
before, but eveyone disagreed with your foolish post...

Gary Eickmeier"
_____

Well that explains it: YOU're no less a part of the "audio people" problem on RAP than me or anyone else on here!

As I said before, everyone will just have to agree to disagree. If they can't the preschool antics that abound on here, they can start their own audio blog and decide who participates and who can't.

As for not being able to open my link - I take responsibility for that: I did that from my mobile. NO LINK I post from my mobile seems to work. Oh well.

Want to see the thread? Search back around July 6th or keyword " egos on this board " in RAP.

[Gary Eickmeier]

wrote in message
...
Gary E:
"
wrote in message
...
- show quoted text -
My ego tells me to correct your spelling of my name... and your link
didn't
work on my computer. But I get the idea. You tried to bring the subject up
before, but eveyone disagreed with your foolish post...

Gary Eickmeier"
_____

Well that explains it: YOU're no less a part of the "audio people" problem
on RAP than me or anyone else on here!

I hope you had a sense of humor on that one - a classic, if I do say so.

Gary Eickmeier